(Topic ID: 120551)

Royal Flush: Drop Down Targets Award Too Many Points (fixed!)

By monsonb

9 years ago


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  • Latest reply 8 years ago by monsonb
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#2 9 years ago

Some of your switch "stays" aren't adjusted right.
They are there to hold one side of the switch stationary (more or less) and prevent switch "bouncing". I'd get all of those adjusted first.

I don't think that will cure the issue though.
Most of the time that I see this, it's caused by the drop target dropping too slowly. When knocked down, they should "snap" down very rapidly.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#4 9 years ago

I can also see in the picture that the reset bar is missing a part. There should be a gutter shaped piece of metal along that reset bar. Without it, the reset bar will cut into the "lifting fingers", and eventually, enough that the target won't be lifted far enough to reset.

If you know what to look for, you can see it in this picture:
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=File:Volleydrop011.jpg
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.carter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#24 9 years ago

My pleasure sir.
I'm happy to hear that you are making progress.
But let's not stop now...

Royal Flush drop targets will score 1000, 2000, 3000, or 4000 dependent on the number of Jokers made.

Quoted from DirtFlipper:

When a drop target switch closes, it activates (energizes) the X relay.

A switch closing on the X relay activates the G relay (which is the Hole relay; the drop targets score the same as the kickout hole value).

A switch closing on the G relay causes the score motor to run. Since the continuous scoring also has the score motor running, then first need to confirm if it is the G relay causing it.

The X relay is locked on (stays energized) via a switch on itself, and a switch at score motor position 2B. When the switch at motor 2B opens, X should de-energize.

The G relay is locked on via a switch on itself and another switch....

...at score motor 2B.

A switch on G causes the score motor to run.

Motor switches at 1A will pulse 5 times per 1/3 revolution.
The logic that implements the 1000 to 4000 scoring is found at row 7 of the schematic, and captured below.

image.jpgimage.jpg

Looking at the motor sequence chart...

image.jpgimage.jpg

...we see that normally closed switches at motor 2C, 3B, and 1B open in turn (shown by the black bars). This circuitry causes one or more of the 1000 point scoring to "drop out" and not be scored.

The easy case to understand is when all 3 jokers have been hit, and 4000 points should be scored.

The motor starts turning, and begins to pulse the 5 times due to motor 1A.
The normally closed motor switch at 4C remains closed until all scoring has been completed.

When the motor reaches the first pulse of motor 1A, the following switches, in series, are all closed...motor 1A, motor 4C, motor 1B, motor 3B, motor 2C, and a switch on G. This causes the game to score 1000 points by energizing relay L (1000 point relay).

When the motor reaches the second pulse of motor 1A, motor 2C has dropped out, so the prior path described can't be followed. But, since the purple joker has been hit (trip relay 3B), the following path can be made to score the second 1000 points. Motor 1A, motor 4C, motor 1B, motor 3B, G, trip relay 3B, and yet another switch on G. Again, L is energized to score 1000.

When the motor reaches the third pulse of motor 1A, motor 3B has dropped out, so once again, another path must be followed. Since the white joker has been hit (trip relay 2B), the following path can be made to score the third 1000 points. Motor 1A, motor 4C, motor 1B, G, trip relay 2B, yet another switch on G, motor 2C, and the final switch on G.

You get the picture, and can extrapolate for the fourth pulse of motor 1A, and scoring the fourth 1000 points.

For the fifth pulse of motor 1A, motor 4C drops out, and no more scoring is possible for the remaining 1/3 revolution of the score motor.

To complete the action, motor 2B (21H on the schematics) opens up, G is "unsealed", the motor continues to run until the switch stack at motor 1C drops into the cam slot, the motor "carry through switch" at motor 1C opens, and the motor stops.
Q.E.D. (all done).

The game is now ready for the next scoring event.

The guys who built these games, all without the aid of computers, were true geniuses.

If you don't have a contact adjuster tool from The Pinball Resource (or other), get one.

Now...soldier on...and get this thing 100%
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chiblr/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#32 9 years ago

Another thing to check, just to be sure, is that the "switch dogs" haven't been moved. There are 5 of them on RF. All of them should be in the "S" position with the exception of motor 2C, which should be in the "L" position. Sometimes people shotgunning will move these switch dogs, and mess up the timing of the score motor switches.

Some advice...don't adjust anything unless you have a strong reason for doing that. Don't simply "try" something. Reason through the schematics. "Trying" results in switches getting so far out of adjustment that it takes much longer to get the game working again.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#45 9 years ago

Tough to tell much, as good as those pics are.
Could you recap, what exactly is the behavior you are seeing?
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpges.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#47 9 years ago

First clue is that the kickout hole should not be kicking
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpags.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#50 9 years ago
Quoted from monsonb:

I tried swapping springs and that didn't seem to make a change. I also tried tightening the G relay spring by three loops. Same result. I'm temped to tighten it some more.
The machine's play meter is at 100,300 and it doesn't work anymore. Would a new set of springs on the relays and drop target bank help?

No. And you should stop attempting to adjust the springs. That's a shotgun move. In all my years of fixing EM games, I've never had to take a loop out of a relay spring.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpags.charter.net/chibler/Pinbal/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#52 9 years ago

Alright. Here's more...

When a drop target switch makes, X pulls in.
X is sealed in by a switch on itself and will remain sealed in until motor 2B comes around at the very, very end of a 1/3 revolution turn of the motor (the motor started running when G pulled in).

What this means is that the NC switch shown in the schematic snippet you posted above will open whenever X is pulled in. That =should= prevent the hole kicker from firing when a drop target is hit.

Let's get that fixed first.
Check the function of the NC switch pair on X with yellow/red and slate/red wires going to it. The switch should open about 1/16" when X pulls in.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB#31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#55 9 years ago
Quoted from monsonb:

I believe I have it at 1/16 now.

...and that's when the coil is pulled in, right?
Has the behavior changed?
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com -The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#60 9 years ago

A technique that I use sometimes, to isolate where the circuitry is making and causing issues, is to place a piece of paper (or business card) between the contacts of some switches, so that I can rule that circuit path out as the cause of the problem.

For the case we've recently been discussing, you could put a piece of paper between the blades of the NC switch on X. The kickout hole should not fire in that instance.

You can also devise other tests to isolate the circuit.

So with the most recent adjustment of the switch on X, the kickout hole still fires?
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#61 9 years ago

PS - You've managed to take some great pics. It's still tough to see what is going on in there, but they are great pics!
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#63 9 years ago

Yes, that is fish paper. It's electrically isolating the "floating" blade of that blade pair from the innermost blade that is actuated by the post on the motor. That one looks fine. Does the next outermost switch pair have an equivalently positioned piece of fish paper?
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#76 9 years ago

thats good news.
Do the drop targets score correctly now?
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

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