(Topic ID: 120551)

Royal Flush: Drop Down Targets Award Too Many Points (fixed!)


By monsonb

5 years ago



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  • 100 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by monsonb
  • Topic is favorited by 6 Pinsiders

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There are 100 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
#51 5 years ago

Okay.

#52 5 years ago

Alright. Here's more...

When a drop target switch makes, X pulls in.
X is sealed in by a switch on itself and will remain sealed in until motor 2B comes around at the very, very end of a 1/3 revolution turn of the motor (the motor started running when G pulled in).

What this means is that the NC switch shown in the schematic snippet you posted above will open whenever X is pulled in. That =should= prevent the hole kicker from firing when a drop target is hit.

Let's get that fixed first.
Check the function of the NC switch pair on X with yellow/red and slate/red wires going to it. The switch should open about 1/16" when X pulls in.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB#31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#53 5 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

The switch should open about 1/16" when X pulls in.

Got it.

#54 5 years ago

I believe I have it at 1/16 now.

#55 5 years ago
Quoted from monsonb:

I believe I have it at 1/16 now.

...and that's when the coil is pulled in, right?
Has the behavior changed?
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com -The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#56 5 years ago

No, the behavior has not changed. It is still as random as before.

#57 5 years ago
Quoted from monsonb:

I also tried tightening the G relay spring by three loops. Same result. I'm temped to tighten it some more.

Nah, swapping springs was only swapping them, not modifying them or tightening/reducing the loops. No need to go beyond trying the swap, which is done. So that was a bust.

Are you able to get a picture of 2B while the switch stack is pushed up? (would need to manually rotate the score motor and hold it while the lift blade is pushing the switches up.

There's no fishpaper separating the top blade of the first switch and the bottom blade of the second switch, and so I'm wondering if when lifted, they're touching, and creating a funky short.

Also, if you very carefully observe the G relay, do you see it 'let go' momentarily and then re-engage during cases where the extra scoring and/or kickout hole fire? Need to know if the lock-in on G is opening at all and re-engaging, or if the lock-in is still holding it.

There's still the possibility that the armature plate on G has become magnetized, but can hold that experiment for later.

#58 5 years ago

Here's 2B pushed up.

DSC01771.JPG DSC01770.JPG DSC01768.JPG
#59 5 years ago

Hmm, doesn't look like they're touching, but the picture's a bit too blurry to tell for sure. Are you able to confirm? (Would be the blades on either side of the mounting bracket)

#60 5 years ago

A technique that I use sometimes, to isolate where the circuitry is making and causing issues, is to place a piece of paper (or business card) between the contacts of some switches, so that I can rule that circuit path out as the cause of the problem.

For the case we've recently been discussing, you could put a piece of paper between the blades of the NC switch on X. The kickout hole should not fire in that instance.

You can also devise other tests to isolate the circuit.

So with the most recent adjustment of the switch on X, the kickout hole still fires?
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#61 5 years ago

PS - You've managed to take some great pics. It's still tough to see what is going on in there, but they are great pics!
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#62 5 years ago

Here's another picture of 2B while the switch stack is pushed up. Is that the fish paper that that's making contact?

DSC01777.JPG
#63 5 years ago

Yes, that is fish paper. It's electrically isolating the "floating" blade of that blade pair from the innermost blade that is actuated by the post on the motor. That one looks fine. Does the next outermost switch pair have an equivalently positioned piece of fish paper?
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#64 5 years ago

The other switch doesn't seem to have any fish paper.
This is what's happening today. Hitting a drop target only scores once, so that's good. The kick out hole also activates about every other time, so that's bad. I used a piece of paper to block the contacts on the X and the kick out hole did not fire once.

I activated the drop targets (again, with the paper blocking the switch) with three jokers activated, and I heard the bonus knocker fire for the first time for player one.

#65 5 years ago

I was watching the X and G with the lights turned out. On the times when the kick out hole misfires with a drop target, I can see a spark jump from the third switch on G.

When the target drops and the kick out hole doesn't misfire, then I don't see a spark coming from G.

#66 5 years ago
Quoted from DirtFlipper:

Also, if you very carefully observe the G relay, do you see it 'let go' momentarily and then re-engage during cases where the extra scoring and/or kickout hole fire? Need to know if the lock-in on G is opening at all and re-engaging, or if the lock-in is still holding it.

If you're watching G, how about this though?

#67 5 years ago

It doesn't appear to "let go". The relay's movement is the same if the kick out fires or not.

#68 5 years ago

OK, how about the X relay then?

#69 5 years ago

There's a difference with X. On the times when the kick out misfires the X relay "lets go" faster. It relay holds longer when there isn't a misfire.
After watching for awhile I could predict if the kick out hole was going to fire or not.

#70 5 years ago

There isn't a problem when X and G are in sync. When X "lets go" first, then the kick out hole fires.

#71 5 years ago

Hmm, so that takes me back to the switch at motor 2B that controls the lock-in path to X and/or the lock-in switch on X itself.

I would tend to discount the switch on X though, since the behavior seems to be very much on the edge. That would be more consistent with the switch at 2B opening slightly early sometimes.

Probably first should confirm which of the two switches at 2B is the lock-in switch for X, and then focus on that switch and its behavior. It may need a bit tighter close, contacts cleaned better, ensure the contacts aren't loose.

#72 5 years ago

From this I can't tell which switch on 2B is the lock-in for X. Is it "Inside" since it connects to G?

Screen Shot 2015-03-13 at 10.34.55 PM.png
#73 5 years ago

Actually it should be the Second sw., since it's on the same lock-in path as C and D (it's the GR-WH wire to 2B). The second switch is the one farthest away from the cam.

#74 5 years ago

That was it! I moved the second switch a bit, and the kick out hole stopped firing! Chris and Dirt, I owe you a round. Thanks so much for being so generous with your time and knowledge!

#75 5 years ago
Quoted from monsonb:

That was it! I moved the second switch a bit, and the kick out hole stopped firing! Chris and Dirt, I owe you a round. Thanks so much for being so generous with your time and knowledge!

great!!!!

for those of us who lurk in all the tech threads, this one was rather educational... thanks for sticking with it til you got it fixed...

#76 5 years ago

thats good news.
Do the drop targets score correctly now?
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#77 5 years ago

Nope, it started overscoreing and activating the kickout again this afternoon...

I'll have to spend some more time with 2B switch.

#78 5 years ago

Okay, I'm lost again. Earlier I moved a blade on the second switch of 2B to be slightly more open when the motor rotates 1/3 and a post opens the circuit. That seemed to be the answer, but I'm back to where I was with the kickout hole firing all the time. I thought I should try moving that blade out again, but that didn't help.

When I manually turn the motor to where the post engages the 2B switch, I can see that both switches are wide open.

Yet, the kickout hole fires about every 4th or 5th time I activate a drop switch.

While wacthing X and G I can see that there's no promlem when they mirror each other. But when X releases early the kickout hole fires as G releases a moment later.

#79 5 years ago

Weird.
In frustration, I lowered the playing field, slid up the glass, and locked down the bar. I intended to just walk away. Instead, I powered up Royal Flush, just see what she would do. I played five straight games and the kick out hole didn't misfire once, and the points added up as they should.

Can you sometimes just "play through" problems?

I don't think I solved my problem, but I don't have it right now. Tonight. Tomorrow, who knows?

#80 5 years ago

Was all the previous testing done with the playfield raised? (where it would fire the kickout hole every so often).

#81 5 years ago

It was about 50/50. I didn't have the playfield raised when I was watching the relays. For a while it didn't matter where the field was - the kick out would fire no matter what.

#82 5 years ago

I mean I did have it up when I was watching the relays...

#83 5 years ago

This machine has a few more issues that I need to address before I can really enjoy it. I'm going to carry on, and if the kick out/ over scoring problem rears its ugly head i'll address it then.

I'm going to start a new topic so it doesn't get lost in here and It can't help anyone else.

3 weeks later
#84 5 years ago

Does anyone know how wide the gaps on the motor 2B switches (Gottlieb Royal Flush) should be when open? I'm still fighting these two switches. They either makes the kick out hole fire when a target is dropped or they make a dropped target score over and over again.

I spent three hours tonight trying to find the right combination of bends with no luck.

#85 5 years ago

For the past three weeks the kick out hole would fire about 1 out ten times when I hit a drop target. So, I let it go and concentrated on correcting other issues. I cleaned the bonus stepper, got the machine to award double bonus points when lit, replaced the burned flipper coil, corrected light problems... I've had some successes. Yesterday afternoon I would have said the game was playing at 100% if it wasn't for that dang kick out firing when it wasn't supposed to. Felt like the game was flipping me off every time it fired.

So, I came back to this thread.

Quoted from DirtFlipper:Probably first should confirm which of the two switches at 2B is the lock-in switch for X, and then focus on that switch and its behavior. It may need a bit tighter close, contacts cleaned better, ensure the contacts aren't loose.

Quoted from DirtFlipper:

Actually it should be the Second sw., since it's on the same lock-in path as C and D (it's the GR-WH wire to 2B). The second switch is the one farthest away from the cam.

I tried moving the second switch in a bit to tighten the gap, and that helped. I played several games with no misfire, but then it started again. I tried to move the switch a bit more, and then things went south, but I'm not sure how...

Currently, the drop targets "over-score" by a few thousand points, but the kick out hole doesn't fire. When watching the X relay and the G relay I can see that G chatters when the over-scoring occurs.

This is what the gaps look like when I rotate the score motor to engage the 2B switches (on the left).
2B Gaps.JPG

The switches are open, but can they be open too far? I just don't know.

I'd really appreciate any help I can get.

#86 5 years ago

Those gaps look OK in that picture.

#87 5 years ago

Ok, thanks. Does that mean my problem lies somewhere else?

#88 5 years ago

Seems like it. But at least you know the path that's involved.

#89 5 years ago
Quoted from DirtFlipper:

Also, if you very carefully observe the G relay, do you see it 'let go' momentarily and then re-engage during cases where the extra scoring and/or kickout hole fire? Need to know if the lock-in on G is opening at all and re-engaging, or if the lock-in is still holding it.
There's still the possibility that the armature plate on G has become magnetized, but can hold that experiment for later.

The G relay is now "letting go" when I get the extra scores. What should I look for there?

#90 5 years ago

I'd have to review this thread again to see where things were at. Maybe this weekend.

#91 5 years ago

I sincerely appreciate your time; there's no rush.
Thanks.

#92 5 years ago
Quoted from monsonb:

The G relay is now "letting go" when I get the extra scores. What should I look for there?

When the X relay activates, a switch closes there that should activate G. A switch on G then closes, and should keep G energized until a switch at score motor position 2B opens. The motor timing chart that Chris posted previously shows that 2B should open only briefly once at the end of a 1/3 motor rev.

So... if G is 'chattering', then that means the lock-in path is not steady. I think this was covered somewhere back on the first page of the thread. With the current adjustment of the switches at 2B though, it may be that it's just not closing solid enough now to keep G locked on.

Might want to go back to a more solid closing of 2B switches so that G does not chatter, and then debug whatever 'other' problem appears instead.

#93 5 years ago

I'll work on it. Thank you.

#94 5 years ago
Quoted from DirtFlipper:

Might want to go back to a more solid closing of 2B switches so that G does not chatter

For clarification, does this mean the gap should be tighter?

#95 5 years ago
Quoted from monsonb:

For clarification, does this mean the gap should be tighter?

Right - it needs to have a good closing when that switch stack isn't raised open.

1 week later
#96 5 years ago

I've got the over-scoring down to a minimum by tightening up the 2B switch gaps. Now a drop target only awards double points about once in every ten times it's hit. My in-laws played about 30 games last weekend, and they didn't even notice, but I'd like to get it running 100%.

Quoted from DirtFlipper:

There's still the possibility that the armature plate on G has become magnetized, but can hold that experiment for later.

How do I test to see if the armature plate is magnetized? Would I wrap a strip of electrical tape around the plate?

1 week later
#97 5 years ago

Using the advice from this thread, I worked on stopping my drop targets' score repetition for over a week, but I couldn’t get the X and G relays in sync with the score motor. The stress of failure, coupled with a 1000-point chime bell clanging in your ear, can give you a killer headache.

Frustrated with my meager skills, I hired a local pin repairman stop to help me. He's got over 20 years of experience selling and repairing pins. He gave me a lot of tips and pointers as he cleaned and checked every switch on the machine. He went through the backbox, flipped the playfield, and pulled out the bottom board.

After two hours of cleaning and examining the switches, he powered up the machine, and to his surprise the drop target problem still existed. After a few more minutes, he threw up his hands in defeat. He wouldn’t take any money for his time, “I didn’t fix anything!” and then he left.

Well, that was a bit depressing.

I didn’t want to give up, so I returned to this thread and reread everything three times. I kept thinking that I didn't have the 2B switches on the score motor adjusted correctly. Taking a tip from the Pinball Ninja’s blog, I decided to isolate the problem by removing the playfield from the equation. Then I could see if I could get the X and G relays to work together when X was manually activated. By making small adjustments to the outside 2B motor switch, I could get the two relays to work together without the G “letting go” early. I figured if I could get the two to fire the 1000 chime 50 times in a row without a problem, then I probably had a good switch adjustment. I was also hoping any problems on the playfield would have been resolved by the repairman’s work on the switches.

I replaced the playfield and tested the drop targets. It’s waaay better. If I manually drop the targets with the playfield down, about one out of 20 makes the 1000 chime repeat itself. If I’m actually playing the game, then the score repetition occurs maybe once in every three games. The joker targets score correctly, too.

It's not perfect, but This Royal Flush has a lot of wear and tear, so I’m thinking this is might be the best I can hope for. But I'll keep trying. When it's working it's a really fun game.
Playfield Paint 1.JPG
Thanks again to Dirtflipper, Chris Hibler, and rufessor. Without you guys this machine would be silent.

#98 5 years ago

Sorry to hear that it's still giving trouble. Sometimes these games just need a complete, 'bottoms up' rebuild to flush all the quirks and gremlins out. The 'top down' approach can be an ongoing challenge, as hidden issues fight against each other.

#99 5 years ago

Hey all,

New to Pinside as of today and brought a Royal Flush back from "the dead". But, I have the same problem as "monsonb" in that every time the drop down target gets hit, it fires the kickout hole. Annoying, but from my limited schematic reading, it seem to be wired that way! Both the hole switch and X (dropdown target) switch are in parallel and meet at the motor switch 1c (which engages for the first 15 degrees). They are also in parallel with the G switch (hole), and all are connected to the motor 2b (which engages at the very last moment of 1/3 rotation).

Is there a way to fix this? It's annoying, but not terrible. Hate to mess with the 2b switch as it plays a part in other functions.

I tried putting paper in the contacts of all the X-relay switches, and it either did nothing or wouldn't score.

Any advice would be welcome!
Thanks,
B

#100 5 years ago

I posted my drop target problem on the Pinball Nirvana forum, and Pinball Dave H advised me to check the blade tension adjustment.

"When relays don't release correctly, the problem is either that the spring is bad, the armature is slightly magnetized, or the long blades' tension is putting force against the pull of the spring instead of helping the spring. Adjust the long blade tension of each switch, then adjust short blades for proper gap of each switch. The relay should have a non-sticking, fluid armature movement when operated manually."

This seems to be the missing piece to my puzzle. I adjusted the blades on the X and G relays and currently all is good. I almost hate to post this as I don't want to jinx the fix...

Two months and a one hundred posts later, the machine is working as it should!

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