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(Topic ID: 272354)

Rottendog GPS001 Repair


By lint

5 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 37 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 months ago by lint
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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#1 5 months ago

Hi All,
I'll preface this post by saying this is my first SS machine. I am an EM guy. I recently picked up a Gottlieb Totem (System 1) and upon power up I get some GI lights but nothing else. Opening the back I see no activity at all on the Ni-wumpf board or driver board.The power board is a Rottendog GPS001 replacement and it has a very obviously burned up diode (D3 IN5400). I have two questions, can anyone tell me if it is worth replacing the diode and getting it working again or is there better replacement options for the PS? I know Rottendog has moved past this product. I wonder if there are upgrades I could do to this board to make it better? There is only one other post on pinside about this board and it is about the same burned up diode. My second questions is can anyone point out any test points I can test on this board? I have never tested a PS with a multi-meter so am unsure on the setting and which point to touch where.

thanks everyone!

IMG_20200704_124121 (resized).jpg

#2 5 months ago

Yes, replace the diode if it tests bad. Is it shorted?

Test voltages at connector. Do you have a schematic?

#3 5 months ago
Quoted from Spybryon:

Yes, replace the diode if it tests bad. Is it shorted?
Test voltages at connector. Do you have a schematic?

I do not have a schematic for this board (couldn't find one on rottendogs site) I have the manual for Totem.

#4 5 months ago

Attach a picture of the schematic from the totem manual that board replaces.

With the connectors shown on the schematic, it's possible to test all the output voltages coming out of the board and see if any are missing.

#5 5 months ago

looking in the totem guide there is no PS schem. I found a video of Pinrepair.com going through the power section of a System 1. I have none of the outputs on the PS he describes.

#6 5 months ago

DISCLAIMER: I have ZERO experience with Gottlieb machines (other than occasionally playing them). I also learned my electronics from reading and doing rather than any higher education institution. You would be advised to double check the information provided.

It looks like Rottendog used the MC34167 on this board. GPS001 shows that D3 is 1N5400. GPS002 shows that the same diode is now a Schottky diode (1N5825) instead of a standard rectifier diode (1N5400). My understanding is that a standard rectifier diode cannot switch fast enough forcing a Schottky diode to be required. If you replace the diode you should probably replace it with a Schottky diode (1N5825). That diode can also be substituted with 80SQ045N. That diode has higher ratings than the 1N5825.

Documentary information follows. Information drawn from https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/MC34167-D.PDF

mc34167_diode.jpgmc34167_design.jpg
#7 5 months ago
Quoted from lint:

totem guide there is no PS schem

Answer to 2nd question of post 1 is here, measure output voltages from this diagram. Believe this is the correct board:

http://www.pinrepair.com/sys1/ps1.gif

http://www.pinrepair.com/sys1/index.htm#power

"Testing the System1 Power Train."

#8 5 months ago

As DumbAss stated (get a chuckle every time I see that name) -- There should have never been a standard rectifier used in this position. This is the catch diode for the supply --> a huge amount of current goes through that diode and it MUST maintain a low forward voltage drop. The 80SQ045N is a great choice for a replacement.
Looking at the input and output capacitors - it appears there is another issue waiting to happen. It looks like those are standard Nichicon capacitors, probably UVR series. Nothing wrong with Nichicon UVR/UVX caps but they are the wrong type to be used as input and output caps for a switching power supply. Those two MUST be low ESR type caps. If they are not low ESR, the ripple current through these two caps will substantially reduce a standard cap's life span. Is there a "VR" or "VX" marked in small letters on the sides of the input and output caps (C1 and cap near L1)?

#9 5 months ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

As DumbAss stated (get a chuckle every time I see that name) -- There should have never been a standard rectifier used in this position. This is the catch diode for the supply --> a huge amount of current goes through that diode and it MUST maintain a low forward voltage drop. The 80SQ045N is a great choice for a replacement.
Looking at the input and output capacitors - it appears there is another issue waiting to happen. It looks like those are standard Nichicon capacitors, probably UVR series. Nothing wrong with Nichicon caps but they are the wrong type to be used as input and output caps for a switching power supply. Those two MUST be low ESR type caps. If so, the ripple current through these two caps will substantially reduce a standard cap's life span. Is there a "VR" or "VX" marked in small letters on the sides of the input and output caps (C1 and cap near L1)?

will check and get back to you. great tips, I would love to provide the community a guide on updating this Rottendog PS board. I dont know how many are still out there.

#10 5 months ago

Here is a schematic of the sys 1 power supply with voltages marked at each component.

http://www.stevechannel.com/images/tech_tips/System1PowerSupplySchematic.jpg

#11 5 months ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

As DumbAss stated (get a chuckle every time I see that name) -- There should have never been a standard rectifier used in this position. This is the catch diode for the supply --> a huge amount of current goes through that diode and it MUST maintain a low forward voltage drop. The 80SQ045N is a great choice for a replacement.
Looking at the input and output capacitors - it appears there is another issue waiting to happen. It looks like those are standard Nichicon capacitors, probably UVR series. Nothing wrong with Nichicon UVR/UVX caps but they are the wrong type to be used as input and output caps for a switching power supply. Those two MUST be low ESR type caps. If they are not low ESR, the ripple current through these two caps will substantially reduce a standard cap's life span. Is there a "VR" or "VX" marked in small letters on the sides of the input and output caps (C1 and cap near L1)?

C1 has a PW(M) and C3 (next to L1) has a VK(M).

Some additional Photos:

IMG_20200705_110559 (resized).jpgIMG_20200705_110619 (resized).jpgIMG_20200705_105812 (resized).jpgIMG_20200705_105823 (resized).jpg
#12 5 months ago
Quoted from Cheddar:

Here is a schematic of the sys 1 power supply with voltages marked at each component.
http://www.stevechannel.com/images/tech_tips/System1PowerSupplySchematic.jpg

thanks Cheddar. Love seeing your location. my hometown!

#13 5 months ago

In addition the value for R21 (bottom left) was changed between this board and the new one - mine has a 100 ohm resistor while the GPS002 has a 470 ohm value in that spot.

#14 4 months ago

C1 (Cinput) is a Nichicon UPW series cap. This is a low impedance cap which is a good thing.

C3 (Coutput) is a Nichicon UVX series cap. This is a standard but high temp cap - which is NOT a good type to be used as a switching regulator output cap.

Standard practice on switching supplies is to always use a low impedance caps at the input and output of a switching regulator, usually paralleled caps are used to reduce ESR and increase ripple current capabilities.
For the input cap, low-ESR is often optional but a high ripple current rating is a must. Increasing the ripple current rating is often achieved by using a low ESR cap.
For the output cap - both high ripple current rating and low ESR values are a must.
The cap he used for C3 is no longer available so I can't look up diameter and lead pitch. I'm guessing that would be 16mm diameter with 7.5mm lead spacing. Assuming he used the correct capacitance and voltage values, I would go to a Nichicon UPW1C472MHD or Panasonic EEUFC1C472.

Regarding R21 -- 100 ohms is a bit low:
If the DC in is 12V (normally higher for this board)--
Voltage across R21 = 12V - zener voltage 8.1 = 3.9V
Current through R21 = = 3.9V / 100 ohm = 39mA
Power dissipated by R21 = 3.9V x 39mA = 152mW. A bit high for a half watt resistor but acceptable.
Power dissipated by CR21 = 8.1 x 39mA = 0.31W. That works but is quite high for a 1 watt zener diode. It will get hot but shouldn't burn - heat created will result in shortened life span.
In real life - the DC voltage on a System 1 supply is normally a bit higher than 12V which increases the above wattage values and makes things worse.

Going to a 470 ohm resistor will reduce zener power to about 20% of what it was or about 0.062W - MUCH better.
I normally use 390 ohms which would reduce power to about 25% of that 0.31W rating or about 0.077W -- also much better.

Going to too large of a resistor value will cut off current flow to the zener diode (below zener diode "knee" current rating).
The zener diode requires a minimum of just under 1mA to operate properly.
100 ohm resistor provides 39mA -- high enough... actually too high.
390 ohm resistor provides 9.75mA -- plenty of current to keep zener operating.
470 ohm resistor provides 7.8mA -- also plenty of current to keep zener operating.
So a resistor in the 390 or 470 range will work. Can actually go higher but I never bothered to calculate where the limit is.
Going too high will also create an excessive voltage drop across R21 depending on load from displays (normally quite low).
To prolong life of R21 and CR21 and stay in proper voltage ranges - I recommend you change R21 to 390 to 470 ohms rated at 1/2 watt.

AND - rant mode on...
Another strange thing I noticed - there is no bulk capacitance for the low voltage input!
The input capacitance is the switching regulator's value used for when you already have a DC input to the circuit, it is NOT intended to be part of the DC rectification! This is a low ESR, high ripple current cap placed 'close to the device'. *The rectified voltage is supposed to already be filtered prior to the switching regulator's input cap*. This board goes straight from bridge rectifier to the regulator input cap and then the regulator. There is no dedicated bulk capacitance,he combined the bulk capacitance and the switcher input capacitance! No wonder these were cheap.

Normal design of this type would go from rectification circuit CR1 & CR2 to a bulk capacitor. Bulk capacitance is used for basic DC filtering and are sized to supply average DC current without sags and absorb current swings.
From bulk capacitor - voltage the goes to the Cin cap which are placed as close to possible to the regulator. The Cin cap is used to facilitate the high current spikes normally created by the switching type regulator.
The bulk and input caps are normally not combined into a single cap - let alone one with such a small value. Yet, somehow his board works. In the electronics world, we call this type of design "Muntzing". Muntzing is the practice of reducing the components inside an electronic device to the minimum required for it to function long enough to get past warranty.

#15 4 months ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

In the electronics world, we call this type of design "Muntzing". Muntzing is the practice of reducing the components inside an electronic device to the minimum required for it to function long enough to get past warranty.

Never heard that expression before. We are dealing with machines from the late 70's and 80's that I think were never thought of still being here today when they were manufactured.
With that being said, what do you think of the original design of the sys 1 ps. I see many still in service today. Granted most are rebuilt but the design seems to work.
-Mike

#16 4 months ago

Muntz had a series of TVs in the 1950s. These TVs were known for being service nightmares. When a design was complete - he would open the TV and start cutting out components until it stopped working and then put the last part back. Adjustable parts - they would measure the adjustment and then make the adjustable part into a fixed value for all TVs. People in fringe areas were screwed. The whole idea was to make it as cheap as possible and not care about servicing the product after the short warranty expired.
BTW - it was Muntz that made popular the abbreviation "TV" for Television.

Regarding the original System 1 and System 80 power supplies -
The original design was mostly a sound design (for that period in time) but poorly implemented. The biggest problem with these is the heat sink design where the heat sink had to be removed to get to other parts. That made it a nightmare to work on.
Once you got these working and stopped futzing with them - they tended to work well and kept working. They got quite hot - but they worked.

#17 4 months ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

C1 (Cinput) is a Nichicon UPW series cap. This is a low impedance cap which is a good thing.
C3 (Coutput) is a Nichicon UPX series cap. This is a standard but high temp cap - which is NOT a good type to be used as a switching regulator output cap.
Standard practice on switching supplies is to always use a low impedance caps at the input and output of a switching regulator, usually paralleled caps are used to reduce ESR and increase ripple current capabilities.
For the input cap, low-ESR is often optional but a high ripple current rating is a must. Increasing the ripple current rating is often achieved by using a low ESR cap.
For the output cap - both high ripple current rating and low ESR values are a must.
The cap he used for C3 is no longer available so I can't look up diameter and lead pitch. I'm guessing that would be 16mm diameter with 7.5mm lead spacing. Assuming he used the correct capacitance and voltage values, I would go to a Nichicon UPW1C472MHD or Panasonic EEUFC1C472.
Regarding R21 -- 100 ohms is a bit low:
If the DC in is 12V (normally higher for this board)--
Voltage across R21 = 12V - zener voltage 8.1 = 3.9V
Current through R21 = = 3.9V / 100 ohm = 39mA
Power dissipated by R21 = 3.9V x 39mA = 152mW. A bit high for a half watt resistor but acceptable.
Power dissipated by CR21 = 8.1 x 39mA = 0.31W. That works but is quite high for a 1 watt zener diode. It will get hot but shouldn't burn - heat created will result in shortened life span.
In real life - the DC voltage on a System 1 supply is normally a bit higher than 12V which increases the above wattage values and makes things worse.
Going to a 470 ohm resistor will reduce zener power to about 20% of what it was or about 0.062W - MUCH better.
I normally use 390 ohms which would reduce power to about 25% of that 0.31W rating or about 0.077W -- also much better.
Going to too large of a resistor value will cut off current flow to the zener diode (below zener diode "knee" current rating).
The zener diode requires a minimum of just under 1mA to operate properly.
100 ohm resistor provides 39mA -- high enough... actually too high.
390 ohm resistor provides 9.75mA -- plenty of current to keep zener operating.
470 ohm resistor provides 7.8mA -- also plenty of current to keep zener operating.
So a resistor in the 390 or 470 range will work. Can actually go higher but I never bothered to calculate where the limit is.
Going too high will also create an excessive voltage drop across R21 depending on load from displays (normally quite low).
To prolong life of R21 and CR21 and stay in proper voltage ranges - I recommend you change R21 to 390 to 470 ohms rated at 1/2 watt.
AND - rant mode on...
Another strange thing I noticed - there is no bulk capacitance for the low voltage input!
The input capacitance is the switching regulator's value used for when you already have a DC input to the circuit, it is NOT intended to be part of the DC rectification! This is a low ESR, high ripple current cap placed 'close to the device'. *The rectified voltage is supposed to already be filtered prior to the switching regulator's input cap*. This board goes straight from bridge rectifier to the regulator input cap and then the regulator. There is no dedicated bulk capacitance,he combined the bulk capacitance and the switcher input capacitance! No wonder these were cheap.
Normal design of this type would go from rectification circuit CR1 & CR2 to a bulk capacitor. Bulk capacitance is used for basic DC filtering and are sized to supply average DC current without sags and absorb current swings.
From bulk capacitor - voltage the goes to the Cin cap which are placed as close to possible to the regulator. The Cin cap is used to facilitate the high current spikes normally created by the switching type regulator.
The bulk and input caps are normally not combined into a single cap - let alone one with such a small value. Yet, somehow his board works. In the electronics world, we call this type of design "Muntzing". Muntzing is the practice of reducing the components inside an electronic device to the minimum required for it to function long enough to get past warranty.

a wealth of information. thank you so much. I have a shopping list. now to see what I have already in my parts drawers and what I need to order. Ill post info once I finish rebuilding the board and testing.

-todd

#18 4 months ago
Quoted from Grizlyrig:

Never heard that expression before. We are dealing with machines from the late 70's and 80's that I think were never thought of still being here today when they were manufactured.
With that being said, what do you think of the original design of the sys 1 ps. I see many still in service today. Granted most are rebuilt but the design seems to work.
-Mike

New one for me too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muntzing

#19 4 months ago

Parts Day. I will get to this this weekend.

IMG_20200710_161607 (resized).jpg
#20 4 months ago

Finished up the board. The old diode took a lot of the hole pads away with it upon removal. It was super burnt. I was able to get the new one in and testing fine for continuity on the lines. I gave it some room above the PCB for airflow. Before I can test I discovered a new problem which I created a new thread for.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-system-1-small-transformer-1-amp-slo-blo-fuse-blowing

IMG_20200711_101112 (resized).jpgIMG_20200711_101128 (resized).jpgIMG_20200711_101324 (resized).jpgIMG_20200711_102350 (resized).jpg
#21 4 months ago

So, 1mp slo-blow on the small transformer is blowing when I plug in this board. which other parts should I check and replace?

Fuse does not blow when AC not plugged into PS board. Measuring AC voltages at the plug with working fuse:

Pin1: 12.09
Pin2: 12.09
Pin3: GRND
Pin4: 14.57
Pin5: 14.53
Pin6: 37
Pin7: 32.50

#22 4 months ago

Low voltage is good.

High voltage is not good.
These would be down in the high voltage section of diodes (near J1) and up to the LM317AHV regulator in the middle.
I believe this is due to how you are reading the voltages. If I remember correctly, the old System 1 supplies had separate high voltage and low voltage grounds. You need to reference the correct ground for old system 1 supplies. I have no idea as to what this replacement board did regarding grounds.

One important detail - the HV supply has about 90V rectified voltage on it. The LM317AHV can withstand an absolute maximum of 60 volts between input and output. In a perfect world, this would be fine. In the real world, the output is often loaded down to a low enough voltage to take out the LM317AHV regulator. Poor design. Obsolete part, I have sold out of replacements for these long ago.

One way to determine if good voltage is getting to board:
Disconnect P1 from board, meter in AC voltage range, measure between pins 6 and 7 of the plug while P1 is still disconnected from board.

#23 4 months ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

Low voltage is good.
High voltage is not good.
These would be down in the high voltage section of diodes (near J1) and up to the LM317AHV regulator in the middle.
I believe this is due to how you are reading the voltages. If I remember correctly, the old System 1 supplies had separate high voltage and low voltage grounds. You need to reference the correct ground for old system 1 supplies. I have no idea as to what this replacement board did regarding grounds.
One important detail - the HV supply has about 90V rectified voltage on it. The LM317AHV can withstand an absolute maximum of 60 volts between input and output. In a perfect world, this would be fine. In the real world, the output is often loaded down to a low enough voltage to take out the LM317AHV regulator. Poor design. Obsolete part, I have sold out of replacements for these long ago.
One way to determine if good voltage is getting to board:
Disconnect P1 from board, meter in AC voltage range, measure between pins 6 and 7 of the plug while P1 is still disconnected from board.

Not sure what you mean by P1, do you mean the cord that goes to A2 J1? All of the AC measurements I posted above were from the female end of the input cord plug to the Power Supply board (disconnected). If I start the machine with the cord plugged into A2 J1 (driver A2 J2 and CPU A2 J3 disconnected) the fuse blows and I get no power to the board.

Just tested continuity on the A2 J1 male pins (no cords connected to PS Board). Pins 1&2 are shorted. I can occasionally get continuity from pin 1&2 to ground as well. Not consistent.

#24 4 months ago

Yes - plug removed from A2 J1.

I need the voltage directly between pins 6 and 7.
Based on:
Pin6: 37
Pin7: 32.50
Sounds like you measured these with respect to ground?

Which fuse is blowing? low voltage? High voltage?

#25 4 months ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

Yes - plug removed from A2 J1.
I need the voltage directly between pins 6 and 7.
Based on:
Pin6: 37
Pin7: 32.50
Sounds like you measured these with respect to ground?
Which fuse is blowing? low voltage? High voltage?

Right around 75VAC between pins 6&7. This is the fuse that is blowing:

IMG_20200711_110646 (resized).jpg
#26 4 months ago

That HV input is correct.
With the plug to J1 being pulled and the correct voltages above, your problem lies within the power supply itself.

When the LV regulator catch diode crapped out, it may have taken one or both of the full wave rectifier diodes with it. These are the two black diodes closest to the 390 ohm resistor that you installed. Check those two with meter in diode setting with plug to J1 pulled. Also possible that the voltage regulator itself may have been taken out - MC34167TVG.

#27 4 months ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

That HV input is correct.
With the plug to J1 being pulled and the correct voltages above, your problem lies within the power supply itself.
When the LV regulator catch diode crapped out, it may have taken one or both of the full wave rectifier diodes with it. These are the two black diodes closest to the 390 ohm resistor that you installed. Check those two with meter in diode setting with plug to J1 pulled. Also possible that the voltage regulator itself may have been taken out - MC34167TVG.

the two 1n4004 closest to the 390ohm resistor are testing off with the diode check. all others check out fine. So, I have some new ones and an MC34167TVG on the way. any way to test the MC34167tvg on the board?

#28 4 months ago

The MC34167 is a pretty complicated integrated circuit - no way to test him on board other than to power it up and try it.

#29 4 months ago

Alright, I replaced the two bad diodes (CR1 & CR2) and I now have signs of life. Also, no blowing fuse.
Here are my current DC Readings on the output jacks.

A2 J2
Pin1: 14.5vdc (Should be 5vdc)
Pin2: 14.5vdc (Should be 5vdc)
Pin3: CUT
Pin4: GRND
Pin5: GRND
Pin6: -12vdc

A2 J3
Pin1: 59.0vdc
Pin2: CUT
Pin3: 41.0vdc
Pin4:
Pin5: GRND
Pin6:
Pin7: 13.45vdc (Should be 4vdc)
Pin8: 8.3vdc

Diodes at CR22 & CR23 tested a little wonky but were not showing complete shorts like the other two diodes. Tracing their paths leads me to believe it might be the reason for the high 5 & 4 volt lines. Ill try and report back. I will say this about this board; I have never worked on a PCB that wants to lift traces as much as this board does. I don't know if it is because it is a PS board and heat has cooked it over the years but the quality of the PCB material is so flaky and just wants to hold onto all the old solder (even when I add new solder to each hole before removing the old components).

EDIT: I replaced CR22 & CR23 with no change in the 5 & 4 VDC voltages. I do have a replacement MC34167TVG but not sure if that would be the culprit. Any advice on where to go from here?

#30 4 months ago

The output transistors inside your voltage regulator (MC34167) appears to be shorted.

But first make sure you have good connections to the catch diode (80SQ45N):
Make sure you have a good ground connection to the anode (non banded end).
And make sure you have a good connection between the cathode (banded end) and the inductor (L1) at the end closest to the regulator.

#31 4 months ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

The output transistors inside your voltage regulator (MC34167) appears to be shorted.
But first make sure you have good connections to the catch diode (80SQ45N):
Make sure you have a good ground connection to the anode (non banded end).
And make sure you have a good connection between the cathode (banded end) and the inductor (L1) at the end closest to the regulator.

thanks. Continuity test good enough or is there some other way to ensure?

#32 4 months ago

For the continuity to the diode - visual and continuity.
Some pretty good current surges go through that diode during normal operation.

#33 4 months ago

G-P-E & pinballdaveh & DumbAss

Thank you each for your help on this board. The board is now outputting all correct voltages. I let it burn-in for an hour today and it seems very steady with it's output. I swapped in a new MC34167TVG after checking continuity and all is well now. Now I am stuck at a ni-wumpf issue but I'll start a new thread if I need to. If anyone has one of these old boards they can follow this thread to upgrade it.

#34 4 months ago
Quoted from lint:

Now I am stuck at a ni-wumpf issue

Not sure if I missed it: What is the Ni-Wumpf issue? I recently got mine repaired and working.

#35 4 months ago
Quoted from JethroP:

Not sure if I missed it: What is the Ni-Wumpf issue? I recently got mine repaired and working.

I'll start a thread later today with info and pics!

#36 4 months ago

Unfortunately, if you ran that CPU board with the 14V from the power supply instead of 5V - that board may be toast.

#37 4 months ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

Unfortunately, if you ran that CPU board with the 14V from the power supply instead of 5V - that board may be toast.

Thankfully I did not. When I got the machine the Power supply had nothing on the outputs. The 14v came in only when I had replaced everything aside from the regulator. I have never had the CPU plugged in until I was sure the Power Supply was outputting correct voltages. Now whatever the previous owner did is anyone's guess. I got this from a guy who buys abandoned storage units.

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