(Topic ID: 207238)

Bally Rolling Stones problem pulsing tone with lights

By JethroP

6 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 85 posts
  • 3 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by Quench
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

IMG_6267 (resized).PNG
U6 INSTALLED, U1 U2 OUT.pdf (PDF preview)
IMG_6266 (resized).JPG
IMG_6265 (resized).JPG
image (resized).jpg
image (resized).jpg
FullSizeRender (resized).jpg
IMG_6184 (resized).PNG
image (resized).jpg
IMG_6183 (resized).JPG
BY-35_Clock.jpg
RollingStonesMPUc.jpg
image1 (resized).JPG
RollingStonesMPUa.jpg
IMG_6179 (resized).JPG
IMG_6178 (resized).JPG
There are 85 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 6 years ago

Trying to fix my first pinball machine, Bally Rolling Stones. Everything seems normal until press the credit button. The game starts (most of the time), but the sound (a tone from the speaker), pulses with the flash of the PF lights. Also, when I press more than one player, the TILT comes on affecting the first player only first ball. Another issue maybe unrelated to the pulsing sound or not...the three pop bumpers are weak and sometimes more than one will energize at the same time. The bumper switches appear to be gapped ok. I have swapped the solenoid driver board with a good one and didn't change anything. I have checked the power supply test points and have good voltages. I have run the solenoid and switch self tests and all solenoids fire and no switches are shown to be closed. I am having to replace the play field fuse every few troubleshooting attempts. All fuses are correct ratings. Any suggesting or solutions? Thanks for any help.

#2 6 years ago

Welcome to Pinside.
Sounds like you have a few issues. You might have a problem in the games switch matrix. Also sounds like you have a problem with a solenoid blowing the playfield fuse. Do any of the solenoids look cooked? Can you pinpoint which solenoid is causing the fuse to blow?

Regarding the switches, get into switch test mode, remove the ball from the outhole and make sure all drop targets are up.
The game manual (electronic pdf page 21, paper page 17) lists all switches and their test number.
Using the manual, activate each switch in reverse order, i.e. from switch 40 down to switch 1. The reverse order is important because the switch test will only display the lowest number closed switch. Push the drop targets down to activate them and leave them down - they will play a part in the switch problems if any.
Note down any switches that report the wrong number and come back with the results.

#3 6 years ago

Thanks for the Pinside welcome! So I was waiting for an email saying I had a reply to my thread and realized today that you had replied days ago, but I didn’t see it. Thanks for the reply. Anyway, I checked the switches as you suggested and can report the following: Using page 17 of Switch self-test display numbers, ALL the switches I actuated were per page 17 sheet EXCEPT FOR THE FOLLOWING: CREDIT BUTTON showed 5 instead of 6. TILT showed 6, 6, and 15 instead of 7’s. OUTHOLE showed 7 instead of 8. RIGHT OUTLANE showed 13 instead of 14. LEFT OUTLANE showed 14 instead of 15. SLAM showed 6 and 16 instead of 16’s. DROP TARGET #3 showed 21 instead of 22. DROP TARGET #2 showed 22 instead of 23. DROP TARGET showed 23 instead of 24. #3 TARGET showed 29 instead of 30. #2 TARGET showed 30 instead of 31. BOTTOM THUMPER BUM. showed 37 instead of 38. RIGHT THUMPER BUM showed 38 instead of 39. LEFT THUMPER BUM. showed 39 instead of 40.
As you can tell, some of these exceptions duplicate other switches. Can you tell what’s going on here?

#4 6 years ago

It almost looks like the playfield and cabinet connectors are incorrectly wired at the MPU board. Is there any chance you can post clear pictures of connectors J2 and J3 at the MPU board showing wire colors? J2 goes to the playfield switch harness and connector J3 is the cabinet switch harness.

Can you confirm whether the following switches report correctly or not in switch test mode?
13... Saucer Drop Target
21... Drop Target #1
29... #4 Target
37... Left Slingshot
32... Saucer

Just for reference, below I've attached the switch matrix wiring diagram - click the picture to expand it for clarity.
Note there are two tilt switches in the cabinet and one tilt switch on the playfield near the flipper mechanisms. Also there is a slam switch on the coin door, and another slam switch near the tilt plumb-bob in the cabinet.
Numbers in Red indicate the switch test numbers.
Switches marked in Blue are cabinet switches and their wiring details. Wiring details in Green refer to playfield switches.
You might notice your lower three rows of switches in the matrix seemed to have moved up one position in switch test mode.

.
RollingStonesSwitchMatrix.pngRollingStonesSwitchMatrix.png

#5 6 years ago

IMG_6147 (resized).JPGIMG_6147 (resized).JPG

IMG_6148 (resized).JPGIMG_6148 (resized).JPG

#6 6 years ago

Confirming that the switches 13, 21, 29, 37, and 32 report as shown in the switch test. These are the ones that appear as duplicates with the "incorrect" tests.

#7 6 years ago

For a brief while the game played correctly and I have not changed any wiring, so I question if something is wired wrong (but possible). There is old corrosion but has been neutralized and I have traced point to point on the MPU board, thinking that is not the problem, but again, a possibility.

#8 6 years ago

Ah, ok you've got some battery corrosion on that board which is likely causing resistive shorts on the switch return signals.
Post a picture showing the whole MPU board if you can.

If you have a multimeter, please perform the following:
Disconnect J2 and J3 from the MPU board.
Set your multimeter to high resistance mode. With the machine OFF, at the J3 pin connector on the MPU board, measure the resistance across pins:
9 to 10 =
10 to 11 =
11 to 12 =
12 to 13 =
13 to 14 =
14 to 15 =
15 to 16 =

Fill in the results. You should measure around 110k ohms resistance across each of these pins at J3.

#9 6 years ago

image (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpg

image (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpg

#10 6 years ago

Here is the data and pic. You can see the ground wire that I added previously to repair the poor ground foil. I don't believe I have any more ground issues there.

#11 6 years ago

Hmm, the measurements look ok.

If you reconnect J3 but leave J2 disconnected, power on the machine and run the switch test, do you still see the errors with the Credit, Tilt and Slam switches?

Also then reconnect both J2 and J3 and power on the machine. Get the machine into switch test mode and then pull off the J3 connector from the MPU board live. Do you still see the errors with the playfield switches?

Another thing I would try is swapping the U10 and U11 chips - i.e. put the U10 chip into the U11 socket and U11 chip into the U10 socket. They are the same devices (6821). Take care to reinstall in the same direction - notch towards the left.

#12 6 years ago

With J2 disconnected I got the same indications as before except that I got NO display when actuating the tilt switch under the PF. Then when I connected J2 and disconnected J3, I got NO indications on any switches EXCEPT I got 6 on the PF tilt switch. I didn't switch U10 and U11. I sent another pic of them. Aren't they different? Should I switch them still?

IMG_6156 (resized).JPGIMG_6156 (resized).JPG

#13 6 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

Then when I connected J2 and disconnected J3, I got NO indications on any switches EXCEPT I got 6 on the PF tilt switch.

Now that's weird. J3 has nothing to do with the playfield switches and should not stop them working. You are getting "0" in the ball in play display when no switches are closed right?

Your picture shows U9 and U10 - they are certainly different.
You want to swap U10 and U11 - your U10 chip is a 6821, your U11 chip is a 6820 and yours are made by different manufacturers which is why they look different - they are however essentially the same functional devices.

#14 6 years ago

Yes, 0 in ball in play unless I am pressing switches. I swapped U10 and U11. No difference. When I press credit button to start new game the tilt comes on as before.

#15 6 years ago

Oh, maybe I gave you misleading info. When I said NO indications except 6 on the PF switch, I only checked the tilt switches, the slam switches, and the credit button.

#16 6 years ago

What's the history of this machine? Did it ever work in your possession? If yes what changed between the moment it worked and then started failing?

You're still getting all the other weird behavior too right? You mentioned you changed the Solenoid Driver Board - do you have a spare MPU board to swap in?

Don't suppose you have an EPROM programmer?

#17 6 years ago

Bought it a couple weeks ago. Didn't work. My first pinball machine. Also bought Mata Hari same time. Didn't work either. Got Mata Hari working. I can't remember exactly what all didn t work at first. Half the solenoids didn't work. Some were weak. Flippers didn't work. Found a broken wire at power supply connector. Replace the electrolytics on Solenoid board. Cleaned the MPU corrosion and repaired the poor ground. Found more broken female connectors at power supply. Replaced all the connectors at power supply and everything worked perfectly. Strong solenoids. I celebrated. Later that day I turned on the game to play and it was back to weak pop bumpers solenoids weird pulsing sound and tilt when I pushed the credit/play button.

#18 6 years ago

I don't have a eprom programmer. I have the MPU board from Mata Hari but I think it's has different jumpers. Is it difficult to configure the Mata Hari board for Rolling Stones?

#19 6 years ago

If your Mata Hari has a factory "-17" MPU board, it's too messy to convert to support the Rolling Stones ROMs. If you're lucky maybe the old board was replaced with a later "-35" board. If you post a picture of the Mata Hari MPU, we can tell.

It's most likely a MPU board problem anyway so let's verify it the easier way. Put your Mata Hari MPU board as is (leave the Mata Hari ROMs on it) into the Rolling Stones machine. Before you power on, make sure all drop targets are in the up position.

Power on. Ignore the fact that lamp sequence will be wrong, you won't get sound and some incorrect solenoids might activate at game initialisation.
Go straight to switch test mode and check if those switches are still being reported incorrectly.

You can do the same by putting the Rolling Stones MPU board as is into your Mata Hari machine - again make sure all drop targets are up first. See if you get wrong switch numbers for credit, tilt, slam.

#20 6 years ago

Installed the Mata Hari -35 board in Rolling Stones. The switches tested correctly, according to the Rolling Stones switch directory....which then would confirm the problem is with the MPU, right? I also installed the Stones board in Mata Hari and got the same incorrect numbers. So.......can I troubleshoot to the bad component on the bad board? Meanwhile, I purchased a -35 board which should be here tomorrow. It has NO CORROSION, but it is untested, which I think likely means it doesn't work. Maybe. But i bought it because it had no corrosion. What do you suggest now? Thank you so much for this help!

#21 6 years ago

Can you post some clear pictures of the back of the Rolling Stone MPU board? Also more pics of the front of the MPU board particularly where the corrosion is - i.e. bottom left, bottom middle and bottom right.

We might try checking a few more things with this board but I've gotta head out now so will come back tomorrow on details and after seeing more pics.

#22 6 years ago

The second pin up on J2 is not seated properly , I think its Brown/White pin 14 .
This wire connects to TILT, Left Outlane, Drop Target B No'2 target and Right bumper. Try pushing it back in fully and see if that changes anything,
Id double check the switch wiring too . Your board looks very corroded . that should be fixed up . And the pins could be tarnished or corroded on JI and J2 this causes all sorts of grief , last resort . Try swapping another 5101 into the board. id found faulty 5101 chips can cause all kinds of problems ,
Good luck

#23 6 years ago

IMG_6162 (resized).JPGIMG_6162 (resized).JPG

IMG_6163 (resized).JPGIMG_6163 (resized).JPG

IMG_6164 (resized).JPGIMG_6164 (resized).JPG

IMG_6165 (resized).JPGIMG_6165 (resized).JPG

IMG_6167 (resized).JPGIMG_6167 (resized).JPG

IMG_6166 (resized).JPGIMG_6166 (resized).JPG

IMG_6168 (resized).JPGIMG_6168 (resized).JPG

IMG_6169 (resized).JPGIMG_6169 (resized).JPG

IMG_6170 (resized).JPGIMG_6170 (resized).JPG

IMG_6171 (resized).JPGIMG_6171 (resized).JPG

IMG_6172 (resized).JPGIMG_6172 (resized).JPG

IMG_6173 (resized).JPGIMG_6173 (resized).JPG

IMG_6175 (resized).JPGIMG_6175 (resized).JPG

IMG_6174 (resized).JPGIMG_6174 (resized).JPG

IMG_6176 (resized).JPGIMG_6176 (resized).JPG

IMG_6177 (resized).JPGIMG_6177 (resized).JPG

IMG_6178 (resized).JPGIMG_6178 (resized).JPG

IMG_6179 (resized).JPGIMG_6179 (resized).JPG

#24 6 years ago

While I'd like to get this board working, I have another MPU board coming today with no corrosion. If any of these boards need repaired, I'd rather it be the one with no corrosion. When it comes I'll try it and report back.

#25 6 years ago

Surprisingly it looks like most of the corrosion is around the edge of the board and hasn't hit many components. Of course there could be stuff going on in places we can't see: under the J3 and J4 pin headers, under the U7, U8 and U11 sockets, under the dipswitch blocks, etc.

Realistically all that corrosion needs to be removed and then the copper protected. I solder over any bare copper to put back more "meat on the bones" since the corrosion eats the copper. Replace any components showing corrosion. Provided the repair is done properly and thoroughly, the board will be very reliable.

You might get some inspiration from this thread:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stripping-battery-corrosion-with-a-strong-acid

BTW when you replaced the U8 socket, did you properly clean up all the corrosion around the socket area on the board? Corrosive crud is conductive and must be removed.

#26 6 years ago

So, I got the new (old) MPU board in the mail today. It's clean...no corrosion. Was missing U1 and U2. Took those and U6 out of the corroded board and installed on the new board. Installed in game and the LED is locked on. Took all the other IC's from the corroded board and installed onto the new board (U6 U7 U8 U9 U10 U11). Still the LED is locked on. Help...Please... (:

#27 6 years ago

Most likely you need to change jumper wires to configure the replacement board for your Rolling Stones ROMs.

All three of your Rolling Stones ROMs are 9316A type which is compatible with 2316 type ROM.

The list here describes which jumper wires need to be connected for different ROM types:
http://www.planetarypinball.com/mm5/Williams/tech/bally_read1st.txt

Below I've indicated where the wire jumpers are on your original board. If the replacement board has other jumper links where there are "E" points, they need to be removed.

RollingStonesMPUa.jpgRollingStonesMPUa.jpg

#28 6 years ago

I confirmed the new board already had the correct jumper configuration. Identical to the old corroded board. What I did notice is that U15 and U16 have been replaced with numbers appear to be different than the U15 and U16 on the corroded board. See picture of what is installed on new board. They are in sockets, so I can buy new and replace if that would be a good idea. Still don't know why the LED is locked on at power up.

image1 (resized).JPGimage1 (resized).JPG

#29 6 years ago

The chips at U15 and U16 are correct. U15 is a MC3459P and U16 is either a 8602 or 9602 (8602 operating temperature is between 0 and +75 degrees centigrade, 9602 is between -55 to +125 degrees centigrade).

There's a trace that's been ripped off during the repair between the pink arrows below: Compare against your original board. These two chips create a master clock signal to the CPU chip at U9. If this clock signal is non functional the MPU board is brain dead and will power up with a locked on LED. No clock signal to the CPU means it can't execute code from the ROMs. The very first bit of code normally executed is to switch the LED off.

MPU board with missing trace in clock circuitMPU board with missing trace in clock circuit

#30 6 years ago

There are jumpers on the back repairing the missing traces. I didn't notice before I first installed this board that U16 was plugged in backwards. I have since corrected that as you can see in the picture, but wonder if that fried the chip? Can I test it, or should I just replace it?

#31 6 years ago

There's probably a good chance the 8602 is fried. Is it hot to touch when you leave the MPU board on for a few minutes?
Do you have a logic probe?
Do you have a multimeter that measures frequency (Hz)?

For now measure the voltages in the clock circuit as circled below.
Bally MPU board Clock circuit with oscillating average voltagesBally MPU board Clock circuit with oscillating average voltages

#32 6 years ago

The 8602 does not get hot. I have a used logic probe. Not sure if it works. Do not have any frequency measuring equipment. Tested the voltages with DVM. See results in attachment.

IMG_6183 (resized).JPGIMG_6183 (resized).JPG

#33 6 years ago

Zero volts on both output pins (7 and 10) of U16 means that chip is not oscillating. Looks like it's dead.
The voltages on output pins 8 and 11 of U15 look bad too.
For now closely inspect the previous repair work looking for accidental solder shorts and damaged traces not effectively repaired. You can try hooking up your logic probe to confirm if those two output pins (7 and 10) of U16 are pulsing or not.

What's the "2.2" written next the +5 in the middle of that area about?

May as well grab another 9602 and MC3459 (alternate replacement) chips from Great Plains:

https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=9602
https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/search.asp?pg=1&stext=MC3459P

#34 6 years ago

Ok. I'll buy 2 new chips. The 2.2 was what I measured there. Was supposed to be 5?

#35 6 years ago

How do I use the probe? Again, I really appreciate your guidance!

image (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpg

#36 6 years ago

One chip is obsolete. Should I use the 74s37 substitute?

IMG_6184 (resized).PNGIMG_6184 (resized).PNG

#37 6 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

The 2.2 was what I measured there. Was supposed to be 5?

Pin 14 of U15 measured 2.2 volts? It should be 5 volts since it's connected to the +5V power rail.

Quoted from JethroP:

Should I use the 74s37 substitute?

Yep, grab the 74S37 instead. Grab some replacement IC sockets for both those chips. The one installed at U16 looks like an old low quality socket. But don't replace the sockets yet - leave that till last so you don't introduce new problems. Get the board working first with the replacement chips.

Quoted from JethroP:

How do I use the probe?

Connect the black alligator clip of the probe to ground (TP4 (top right) on the MPU board is a ground point)
Connect the red alligator clip of the probe to +5V (TP5 (bottom middle) on the MPU board is the logic +5V power point)
Set the switches on the probe to TTL and away from Latch.
Power on the MPU board, put the tip of the logic probe on each of the output pins (7 and 10) one at a time of U16. You're looking for the yellow Pulse LED to be on at each output pin.
You can then try probing the same pins on your Mata Hari MPU board to see how the logic probe should react.

#39 6 years ago

Thanks a million. So i found that pin 14 wasn't adequately soldered to the board and there was no voltage there up to the chip. I fixed that and checked all the voltages again. Somewhat different. See pic. I confirmed there is no pulse on U16 at pins 7 or 10 (there is on Mata Hari). Is it interesting that there was a difference in voltage on U16 pins 7 and 12? Voltages were 4.6 and 1.7 respectively. I will order new chips and sockets. In the meantime, I guess I will be dead in the water until the parts arrive.

FullSizeRender (resized).jpgFullSizeRender (resized).jpg

#40 6 years ago

Voltages on U15 look better now.
Make sure connections to resistor R4, R10 and capacitors C14 and C15 are good. They are critical to the 9602 clock circuit running.

#41 6 years ago

So when the new IC's come just plug them in and fire it up and see if it works?

#42 6 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

So when the new IC's come just plug them in and fire it up and see if it works?

Yeah pretty much. Replace the 9602 first and if no go then replace the 74S37 too.

#43 6 years ago

Hi Quench. I'm waiting for chips so I bought toilet bowl cleaner and cleaned the corroded board. Good news is that it resets, the tilt error is gone, and the bumpers are strong. Only oddity now is the sound still pulses with the flashing lights during a game, not in attract mode. When the lights flash fast the sound pulses fast in unison with the lights. When the lights flash slow, the sound pulses slower in unison. I can actually play the game this way, but still not right. Got any ideas?

#44 6 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

I bought toilet bowl cleaner and cleaned the corroded board. Good news is that it resets, the tilt error is gone, and the bumpers are strong.

Good to hear.

Any chance you can post a video of the lamp/sound issue?
Lamps are handled by U10 on the MPU board, sounds by U11 so there's no shared signals.
Are you able to tell if it's specific lamps being activated that are causing the sounds?

#45 6 years ago

Turned it on and EVERYTHING IS WORKING!!!! Sound mystery is gone. Hmmm ??? Yeah! That may mean it's gonna come back? Any thoughts on that let me know. Meanwhile, so I don't have to swap the U1 and U2 chips, I'm just going to buy 2 new ones. I see different 9316 chips for sale... different prefixes and suffixes. Do I need to stick with something particular for my game?

#46 6 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

Turned it on and EVERYTHING IS WORKING!!!! Sound mystery is gone. Hmmm ???

What did you touch/change?

You can't buy new 9316 chips. You might find someone on ebay selling old Rolling Stones 9316 ROMs.
Todays option is to get 2716/2732 EPROM replacements that have been programmed with the game of your choice. There are a few sources (ebay and probably some folk here). You will however need to change jumper settings on the MPU board to support these EPROMs, because they have slightly different pin configuration compared to 9316 ROMs.
Alternatively if you're keen, you might even consider buying an EPROM programmer and EPROM chips to do it yourself. That way you can program the EPROMs with whatever game you want at any time.

#47 6 years ago

Between the time it didn't work until it started working, I didn't touch anything! Just turned it off then back on. I did replace the 5 electrolytic caps on the sound board AFTER I cleaned the corrosion, and had tested to see that the tilt and other issues were all fixed except for that sound issue. But after I replaced the caps and turned the game back on, I still had the sound issue. An hour later I went back and turned the game on to play a little and it just worked perfectly. Sound issue fixed itself....at least for the time being.

Got it. Need to program U1, 2, and 6 with newer chips. I guess I'll just get the new board repaired using my existing ROM set for now.

You have been very informative and helpful to me. I am indebted! Thank you.

#48 6 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

Oh, so the 9316 chips are each programmed? I thought only U6 was programmed and U1 & U2 were just RAM chips.

If you look closely, all three of your ROMs (U1, U2 and U6) are 9316A ROMs with Ballys part number stamped on them.
E-796-17 U1 (Rolling Stones game code part 1)
E-796-18 U2 (Rolling Stones game code part 2)
E-720-35 U6 (Bally version 35 system code)

The data in 9316 ROMs is implemented as part of the manufacturing process of the chip. They cannot be reprogrammed.

#49 6 years ago

I installed new U9, U15, and U16. LED is still locked on.

#50 6 years ago

Checked output pins (7 and 10) one at a time of U16. No pulses.

Promoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
$ 18.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
From: $ 2.99
From: $ 17.00
$ 79.99
Cabinet - Armor And Blades
PinGraffix Pinside Shop
 
$ 9.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
$ 18.00
Electronics
Yorktown Arcade Supply
 
From: $ 170.00
From: $ 30.00
$ 199.95
$ 69.00
Great pinball charity
Pinball Edu
There are 85 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/rolling-stones-problem-pulsing-tone-with-lights and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.