(Topic ID: 175221)

Rollergames sys11c sound stops working after 2-3 minutes

By hfodf

7 years ago


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#1 7 years ago

Recently bought a dirty/halfbroken/old Williams System11c Rollergames. (Pictures at the end of the post, saved on imgur.) Besides a broken display (I ordered a replacement, http://imgur.com/a/pl2EL ) the machine sometimes powers up into attract mode, but sometimes it gives 4 (or 5, counting is hard) 'error sounds' (not the gong). If it does power up with the one-gong I can play the game just fine but the sound (music and sfx) goes totally silent after 2 or 3 minutes. (Record time is ~5 minutes.)

Three questions:

  1. I think it's one of the EPROMs that are bad (according to http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/wms11/index2.htm#sndled ). But I'd like to know if I can test(measure something) this further before ordering replacement EPROMs?
  2. In regards to question1, I'm interested in learning to burn my own EPROMs. Any suggestion what brand and type I could buy that's entry level, for pinballs mainly and runs on Windows 10?
  3. Pictures (http://imgur.com/a/pK7wq) of the CPU board that had a leaking battery, damage is "ok". Should I do something specific to clean it up?

I'm new to all this, and I bought the Rollergames to learn something about repairing pinball machines. Hope you can help me out with some nudges/tips/answers to my 3 questions.

#2 7 years ago
Quoted from hfodf:

But I'd like to know if I can test(measure something) this further before ordering replacement EPROMs?

I normally stick the EPROM in an EPROM burner, read it, and compare it to the ROM file of the same version. If they match, it's probably still good. If not, either the data is corrupted (and just needs to be erased and re-burned) or the chip is bad.

Quoted from hfodf:

In regards to question1, I'm interested in learning to burn my own EPROMs. Any suggestion what brand and type I could buy that's entry level, for pinballs mainly and runs on Windows 10?

I've had good luck with the GQ-4x burner.

Quoted from hfodf:

Should I do something specific to clean it up?

Yes. There are a number of threads that address this, in addition to the system 11 page on pinwiki.

http://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_9_-_11#Repairing_Alkaline_Corrosion

#3 7 years ago

Thanks for the fast reply. Looks like I need a burner to check before ordering. Doesn't look like I can source a GQ-4X locally though . I'll have a good look and clean for the CPU board.

I guess the EPROMs are broken with the problems I'm having and I just should order replacements?

#4 7 years ago

Small update: the game always boots into attract mode now I fixed a proper batterypack. So that's good news. The sound still stops working after 2-3 minutes though. Not sure why.

With my limited knowledge and a logic probe I checked some ICs on the sound board. I started with the resetline of U13, U8; then went to check data on U8, U3 and U1. On the latter IC i only measured the data (which seems to be present). I did not measure the output side of U1. Not sure how to do that.

For a more complete description of what I noticed (including a peculiar pattern on U3), see the images and descriptions on this imgur link: http://imgur.com/a/hl8dZ

Any tips or idea's what to do next is appreciated .

#5 7 years ago

Surprised nobody mentioned reflowing the headers for powering the sound board and every other header (pins) involved in that system. Likely a cold solder joint. Connectors (that go on those pins) may be a factor too, but if it cuts out after 3 minutes it is likely just the header pins as when it heats up it makes the already bad connection even worse. I think you are looking into it way too deep, at least at the start here.

Do you have experience with circuit board level soldering?

#6 7 years ago

The fact that it works initially also makes me suspect a heat related issue.

Can you run the sound test and gently press the connectors on the board to see if the sound goes back to normal when you press a specific connector?

#7 7 years ago

Otaku and @yeoldpinplayer: awesome suggestions. I combined your two suggestion and started a game (cold) with sound. The moment the sound stopped I immediately fiddled with the J21 connector on the CPU board (ribbon cable to the soundboard). The effect being I had the sound return for about 3 seconds after it was gone. Fiddling after those 3 seconds didn't matter anymore and I was unable to make the sound return.

So I guess I should reflow the pins on both boards and perhaps try to find another ribbon cable? (I might have a spare PC IDE cable I could test with.)

Quoted from Otaku:

I think you are looking into it way too deep, at least at the start here.

Yeah, I hope so. I'm just trying things I think might help you guys give me good advice on the matter . I'm all very new to all this. Curious though, as I saw the data pins on the ICs pulse. I guess that's not a good way to measure if it's generating sounds. (Again, very new to this.)

Quoted from Otaku:

Do you have experience with circuit board level soldering?

Not super much. I did solder the remote batteryholder to the CPU board and that looked ok. I have a 25w soldering iron, will that suffice for reflowing? Any tips for the reflowing process in general?

Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

Can you run the sound test and gently press the connectors on the board

My display is out and I'm awaiting arrival of the new display, so getting to the sound test is a test on itself . (And I'm likely to slow for that in regards to the problem "heating up". Good tip to fiddle with the connector, looks like I should reflow both connectors and check the cable and hope that solves it.

#8 7 years ago

Perhaps a new ribbon cable as well, I don't know if they're the PC size, I never owned a System 11. I would try that first especially as a newbie.

Soldering can be hit or miss, this are pretty easy spots to hit once experienced but if you're not experienced you could mess up the whole job. More difficult than a battery pack I'd say due to the amount of pads and traces.

If you don't feel confident and you can narrow it down to it being cold solder joints on connectors and want to drop a bit of money to mail it out to me and back I will do it for you for free or whatever tip you want to throw in. (or if you're in the NJ area come by and I'll do it on the spot and we can play some pinball) I do repairs on my arcade machines and pinball boards all the time and it's exactly the same kind of work and is easy for me personally, but I don't feel there is a comfortable way to recommend the job and I'm probably not the right person to give tips on soldering. Merry Christmas.

People may come here and say it's a waste to mail it out but the option is always there if you don't feel comfortable with it.

#9 7 years ago

Thanks for the repair/pinballgames offer! Afraid mailing it would likely cost me more than a new board + would not match with my instant gratification person I am . (I'm located in the NL, takes about 20 days+ for a parcel to come my way from the states.)

The ribbon cable isn't PC size, but since the boards do not have a bounding plastic around the pins I can abuse a slightly larger ribbon cable to test. I'll test that first (good tip). Haven't checked it any further though(busy days), but I'm going to go at it this weekend. I'll post an update on how it goes / and if it fixed it around Sunday.

#10 7 years ago

Does the sound last longer if you turn the volume way down low? What happens if you blow some compressed air on the sound amp heatsink when it dies?

#11 7 years ago

I reflowed one side (soundboardside) to no avail. The comment about compressed air made me feel the heatsinks, they were cold to the touch. I did notice that U3 is somewhat "warms up".

U3 isn't hot, but it's noticeable warm (while the other ICs are just cold). You can keep your finger on it no problem (so it isn't hot).
Is that normal for that IC?

#12 7 years ago

the 6809 cpu is the most likely ic to have a thermal issue

#13 7 years ago

@barakandl: The cpu feels cold to the touch.

I reflowed both sides of the connector now (on the soundboard + cpu board). I also changed the cable (ended up using the display cable ). I replaced 4 caps near the end of the soundcircuit, suspecting they might be broken. (See pictures, the brown one was a little curved at the bottom: http://imgur.com/a/zNq1m )

Alas to no avail.
The music still stops as evident in my phone recorded movie:

In the schematics I cannot really find what voltages should arrive at the soundboard. I wanted to measure that, but i don't really think that's the issue as I guess more stuff would stop working.

Suggestions / things I could try or test for?

#14 7 years ago

I can't read the numbers from the schematic at IPDB but it looks like J3 on the Audio board should have voltage. If you have a good copy test those voltages while the sound is working, test them again after it stops. If you have the correct values while working, incorrect while not working you can track down what's feeding J3.

#16 7 years ago

Good call. I cannot read the voltages either (regrettably the pinball came without its manual).

I'm guessing it reads: +5, grn, -12, key, +12, +12.
I've measured: +4.94, x, -11.8, x, +13.91.* (Disconnected J3 to measure.)

*) Measured it 5 minutes after shutting down the machine (leaving J3 disconnected), and powering it up again at 14.45 .... is that within tolerances?

#17 7 years ago

No clue if it's within tolerances (see above post). But it seems that I tend to get 14.00 volt at most lately, not anything higher. (Currently it's 13.4 volt.)

Anyway, with my epromburner still in order (I'd love to check the eprom data) I started experimenting again. Reminder: I'm new to this. So any tips / tricks are welcome! I ran a scope on U3 (the one that gets warm/hot, the YM2151) on the serial output pin (the one that goes to the DAC) and a "random" (d0 tru d7) data line. (Used by the chip for addresses and data, both read and write.) Results in the two short (few seconds each) youtubes below.

Youtube1: Turn up the sound if you want to actually hear the music/sound stop, but it's apparent from the change in output. You're looking at the serial output that goes into some form of "repeat/steady" mode.

Youtube2: This is pin D5 on U3, a random selected dataline. It kind of looks like there is some data being send/read/addressed? Any second opinion on this? (U3 tends to be warm, approaching "nearly something near hot" by this time. Perhaps important.)

I put the scope into triggered mode. This is the first time I connected my (new, old) scope to an actual device. New to this scope stuff as well.

PS Loving this adventure this Rollergames is setting out for this. Learned a lot so far on pinball machines!

#18 7 years ago

Generally +/- 10% is within tolerance. By that criteria 13.91 is out of spec. It's possible that measuring with no load is giving you a high reading.

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