(Topic ID: 273498)

Rollergames flashers not working

By mrossman5

3 years ago


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  • 29 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by mrossman5
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 3 years ago

Just got a new Rollergames and none of the flashers work. I have checked and replaced fuse F2C and that didn’t work. Where should I look next?

Thank you in advance.

#3 3 years ago

Seller said all flashers were working fine before transport. In the tests, I can hear the relay clicking each time a flasher is supposed to be on.

#5 3 years ago

Update: the flashers randomly started working during gameplay for probably a minute, and then stopped working again.

#7 3 years ago
Quoted from Blackbeard:

Sounds like a connector.
You folded the head to transport. Something was likely tight and is pullout out a little. Could even be a specific wire running into it's housing on the board somewhere. I've had wires pull out just a tad from the housing.
I"d put it into coil test, and test the flashers. If they're not working from there, leave it in test mode running, and jiggle connectors on the interconnect and cpu. Try to find the wiring running to those boards associated with the flashers and push the housing AND actual wires back into their housing.
Side question: ever find out what happened to our nice clean ES in harbor creek area last year?

It has to be. They work about 35% of the time. During random parts in gameplay they will turn on and off again. The relay still clicks into place correctly even when they don’t turn on. I have taken off the CPU board, AUX power board, and even the interconnect board. They all looked clean with no cold solder joints. I’ve reseated every connector with no luck, during the test mode, I’ve jiggled every connector associated with the flashers and had no luck. I don’t really know what to look for next.

Never got a peep from him. He left me on read when I asked what he got for it. I bet they had to get rid of it cheap because they were in such a hurry. Why was she so stubborn on that price? It really is a shame as either one of us could have really cleaned it up nice, but hopefully someone who knew something about pinball bought it. It was pretty far gone though.

#10 3 years ago
Quoted from edcianci:

i just read this whole thread - if it's a wire wouldn't it be right near the playfield of where the ball is when they go on. maybe the ball hits something on the playfield that just nudges this wire under the playfield to create a good connection/contact for a split second to make them go on. just the thought of a non pinball repair guy - so this might mean nothing. thanks ed

I appreciate your input and for bumping this thread. The wire would much more likely be in the head as every flasher, not just one is not functioning. The connections connected to the power board and interconnect board are responsible for every flasher on the playfield and behind the translite.

A friend of mine sent me a link to this old thread (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/rollergames-flashlamps-problem-williams-ac-solenoids-circuit). The only difference between his problem and mine is mine do occasionally turn on for a brief moment (less and less recently) which leads me to believe it has to be a wire. I've spent hours trying to figure out which one it is, and I just can't. I have taken pictures of the aux power, cpu, and interconnect board and would be more than happy to post them here if it would help anyone.

I'm really hoping I can get these fixed as they look awesome in the quick seconds when they work! I appreciate everyones responses.

#12 3 years ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

The problem described in that thread was my first thought but your description of the problem does not quite match up. Enter diagnostics and stop the solenoid (coil) test at solenoid #9. The manual describes that as a flasher but does not describe its location. If this flasher illuminates in test but none of the other flashers illuminate then I would suspect the 4N25 optocoupler despite the inconsistency. It's easy to exclude it by a diode test on the IC.

It does not hurt to post them. They might look normal (and correct to you) but someone with more experience and observation skills can spot problems fairly quickly. Make sure they are in focus and well lit. The higher the resolution and clearer the pictures are the better the response will be.
I would start there and see what the results are before going in any other direction.

I appreciate your reply. I tested flasher #9 and it did not work. I tried replacing the flasher bulbs where I thought it was located, but I still haven't had luck. I haven't been able to get the flashers to turn on at all recently. Do you know if this is the correct optocoupler (https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/5490-10892-00)? Is it possible it is the octocoupler even though they sometimes the flashers do come on?

Here are some pictures of the cpu board and interconnect board.

Thanks for everyone's help.

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#14 3 years ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

The boards look clean - including the previous work done on them. Looking clean is one thing. I do not have electron vision. Your camera does not have electron vision. Only a multimeter has electron vision. See below.

That is the correct part. I do not recommend shotgun replacing an IC. If you want to salvage the IC there is potential for board damage if not done correctly. Measure it first. It is measures as "bad" (failed) then definitely replace it. If it measures as "good" that does not mean that it is good. It could be failing under load (in operation). I would replace it after more diagnostics have been performed. If you do want to replace it and have a replacement on hand then use a socket when replacing it. If you want to sacrifice the component then cut the legs of the IC (as close to the body as possible), individually remove the clipped legs and then clean the holes. This reduces the risk of board / trace damage.
https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_9_-_11#4N25_Opto_Couplers_in_the_Switch_Matrix

Verify the bulbs are good. If they are incandescent then check for continuity. If they are LEDs then use a 9V battery (or power adapter) to check them. Alternatively you can put them in a machine known to work - or take a known good bulb out of another machine.
If none of the flashers work then you likely have a power problem. You will need to measure voltage.
The RED wire coming off the auxiliary power board at 5J11-9 needs to have +25V (nominal). That same RED wire going into the interconnect board at 2J5-8 needs to have +25V. The RED wire coming out of the interconnect board at 2J8-5 needs to have +25V.
The ORG wire coming off the auxiliary power board at 5J11-1 will have +25V only when the A/C relay is enabled for "C" side selection. It should normally measure 0V. If you stop the solenoid test at solenoid #12 the voltage should pulse each time the A/C relay is enabled. Your DMM should be able to detect this pulsing. This same ORG wire going into the interconnect board at 2J5-9 needs to pulse +25V as well. Finally the ORG wire coming out of the interconnect board at 2J8-4 needs to pulse as well.
Finally ... if the RED wire measures correctly then measure the voltage at the flasher lamp socket under the playfield for solenoid #9. It should read +25V.
If the power is present at solenoid #9 you can temporarily ground the transistor tab on the CPU board to see if it flashes.
Check for power first. If you have power then it's the grounding side that has either failed (or is failing to be grounded).
https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_9_-_11#A.2FC_solenoid.2Fflasher_problems

Thank you so much! This is extremely helpful.

#15 3 years ago

Forget the flashers, I can’t even get the game to boot.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/rollergames-wont-boot

Again, thank you everyone for all your advice.

2 weeks later
#16 3 years ago

Update: Flash 9 DOES work. Does this mean it is more than likely the optocoupler?

2 weeks later
#18 3 years ago

The opto isolator was the issue. Replaced and now all is well!!

Thank you everyone, especially not-dumb DumbAss for all your assistance.

1 month later
#19 3 years ago

Replaced all flashers and they worked great last night. This morning, all flashers in “flash 8” have stopped working. Every other flasher is still working. Could this just be a wire?

#21 3 years ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

Does solenoid 8A (Lock Diverter) work?
If it does NOT work then suspect the drive transistor on the CPU board.
If it does then suspect the bulb, the wiring or the 5W resistor on the interconnect board.

The lock diverter does still work. I’ve looked under the Playfield and at the boards for any loose wires and can’t seem to find any. The manual doesn’t do a great job specifying what wire goes to Flash 8. I know the Flashers still work (they are LEDs from Comet). Is it normal for a resistor to just stop working?

Again, thank you for your assistance.

#23 3 years ago
Quoted from Blackbeard:

This is a bunch of flashers out, correct?

One of the 9 Flasher strings. I think it’s a total of 4 flashers.

Dumbass helped fix my previous issue with the flashers on this game which was every string was out. Threw in a new optoisolator and it worked great until now.

#27 3 years ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

This rules out the drive transistor on the CPU board. Solenoid 8A and flasher 8C share this transistor.

Visual inspection is good but ultimately the definitive method is to measure continuity using a DMM. I don't have electron vision and I'm pretty sure you don't either.

It does. It's hard to sort through a lot of text, numbers and lists. See below. I hope it gives you enough to be able to sort out issues yourself in the future. Look to see how things are correlated and connected to each other.

No but if the resistor dissipates close to or more energy than it is rated for or dissipates a lot of energy and heats up it can cause a solder joint to crack. In the case of being in excess of rating the resistor will slowly "cook" and will likely fail open (does not measure any resistance across it).

The power for the flashers is supplied by the Auxiliary Power board. If the other flashers work fine then there's no reason to believe that there's a problem with the power supply. It's more likely to be related to the circuitry of the affected flasher.
So here's a detailed description of how to follow the manual and documentation in the manual to find what you need. I hope you find it helpful. Everything below was taken directly from the Rollergames manual.
This is the A/C circuit diagram. Power comes out from the auxiliary power board at 5J11-1, goes to the flasher, to the interconnect board resistor and returns to the auxiliary power board. The components in this diagram and general and not specific to flasher 8C.
[quoted image]
Wiring connection. 5J11-1 connected to 2J5-9.
[quoted image]
Wiring connection. 2J5-9 connected to 5J11-1.
[quoted image]
This is the schematic of the interconnect board. 2J5-9 is connected to 2J8-4.
[quoted image]
2J8-4 is the playfield distribution of "C" solenoid (flasher) power.
[quoted image]
2J12-8 is the playfield return of flasher 8C. It's a BLK-GRY wire. You should be able to verify this is the correct wire color based on the manual description of the location of the flashers.
[quoted image]
This is the schematic of the interconnect board. 2J12-8 is connected to R8 and then from the other side of R8 to 2J4-8. R8 should be a ceramic resistor. Its value is listed as 3 Ohms @ 5W in the manual but the manual specifies values for the early production of Rollergames with the flashers in the back box insert. Most of the production run did not have these flashers installed at the factory so the value of the resistor may be different due to the different number of flashers on the 8C string. Check for continuity between 2J12-8 and R8 (check which side by looking at the traces on the board) then check the other side continuity to 2J4-8. Alternatively you can measure resistance from 2J12-8 to 2J4-8 and it should measure the same resistance as the value specified on the resistor (presumably 3 Ohms).
[quoted image]
Wiring connection. 2J4-8 is connected to 5J5-1.
[quoted image]
Wiring connection. 5J5-1 is connected to 2J4-8.
[quoted image]
And finally the auxiliary power schematic for the A/C flasher drives. 5J5-1 is labeled as 8C and passes through D44 before being grounded by the drive transistor on the CPU board - that we know is working because solenoid 8A works. Verify D44 measures correctly.
[quoted image]
That's it. That's how the flasher is controlled. If there's a problem it has to be somewhere in that path. Note that playfield wiring is not fully pursued here and if you suspect playfield wiring then use a DMM to verify continuity between the power wire (ORG) and the drive wire (BLK-GRY). Also note that using an LED will not allow you to measure continuity. Remove all LEDs on the string and put a single incandescent bulb to perform this test.

Really appreciate you taking the time to do this. This is very helpful!

Quoted from Blackbeard:

robin
The info above should be stickied some how.
Something to contemplate. It’s amazing information most have no idea about.
Well done DA. Well done.

Thank you for your input as always Blackbeard. I concur.

#29 3 years ago
Quoted from Blackbeard:

Did you ever figure this one out?

Not yet unfortunately. I’ve been focusing on getting my STTNG 100% which as you probably know isn’t easy. Once I’m done with that I’ll figure this out.

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