(Topic ID: 227949)

Rollergames flash lamp issue help needed

By JanS

5 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 31 posts
  • 3 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by JanS
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

DSCN1856 (resized).JPG
2-14 (resized).png
untitled (resized).JPG
#1 5 years ago

This has been driving 2 of us crazy here for about a week and we are completely stumped and pretty much out of options. First off all of the coils work fine and it is switching from them to the flash lamp circuit. In test mode Flash Lamps 3, 4, 6, 7 and 9 flash but are so dim they are barely noticeable. If I pull J11 off the interconnect what is supposed to flash works as it should. Same for J12 if it's pulled everything on J11 is good. I've replaced U18, U19 and U20 on the CPU along with their associated resistor arrays with no change. If I pull 1J11 off the CPU and ground each pin in the connector I get a bright normal flash at each wire. Where to go from here??? All of the boards in the game look line new with no burnt, loose pins whatsoever. On a side the interconnect resistor values are different than what the manual shows. There is no Williams number sticker on it to verify if it was for this game Thanks!
PS: If it matters this is an early game #44 with the 15 flash lamp insert.

#2 5 years ago
Quoted from JanS:

If I pull 1J11 off the CPU and ground each pin in the connector I get a bright normal flash at each wire. Where to go from here???

1J11 connects to the solenoid drive transistors. Their function is to act as a switch to turn on ground for the solenoids and flash lamps, depending which of those is multiplexed by the A/C relay. That's all that is there between that connector and ground, just the transistors. Since all of them do not give a full brightness flash when operated normally through 1J11, but if you bypass them and ground it manually they flash at full brightness, I'd say you have a bad ground from the transistor emitters to the board ground, which is mostly obtained through the board mounting screws. You can verify this by using a meter to measure resistance from any of the associated drive transistors that switch through J11 (Q24,Q25 etc..) to ground. Make sure all your MPU board mounting screws are conductive and screwed down tight. You could also have a broken or scratched trace somewhere, maybe on the back of the MPU board.

untitled (resized).JPGuntitled (resized).JPG
#3 5 years ago

All the screws are in and tight. Could I use a jumper wire to the ground trace to those circuits from a good ground on another area of the CPU as a quick fix? Thanks!

#4 5 years ago
Quoted from JanS:

All the screws are in and tight. Could I use a jumper wire to the ground trace to those circuits from a good ground on another area of the CPU as a quick fix? Thanks!

If you have verified a good ground (preferably with an ohmeter) then yes. I'd prefer to use a meter to locate the exact problem, but you can bypass the suspected fault temporarily. Jumper from a known good ground to the emitter of Q24, that should at least make that flasher (flash#4, whatever that is) and likely all of the flashers, work at full brightness if I am reading your problem correctly and bad ground is the problem. You might also see better performance from the solenoids that are multiplexed with these flashers if there is a bad ground.
2-14 (resized).png2-14 (resized).png

#5 5 years ago

I clamped an alligator clip to the Q24 emitter to the ground plate that the boards mount to and there is no difference.

#6 5 years ago
Quoted from JanS:

If I pull 1J11 off the CPU and ground each pin in the connector I get a bright normal flash at each wire.

Is this still true? ground pin #5 of 1J11 - see if you have full brightness there.

#7 5 years ago

Full bright

#8 5 years ago

Reinstall connector and ground the big tab on top of Q24, what do you have now?

#9 5 years ago

bright lights

#10 5 years ago
Quoted from JanS:

bright lights

OK, so basically we have attacked this circuit at both ends ground--->transistor and then transistor --->flasher All you have left is the transistor "switch". As long as they are the correct transistors and soldered properly, the only other thing I can think of is the duty cycle of the pulse fed to them from logic section is quicker than it should be. Are the flash bulbs dim in both game play and test mode?

#11 5 years ago

I have yet to play a game on it.

#12 5 years ago

Game play no change

#13 5 years ago

Intriguing. Did this game ever work correctly in your possession? The reason this question is asked, if something has simply stopped functioning correctly it is *usually* easier to diagnose than something that has never worked correctly (possible parts changes etc...)

If I had nothing to go on, my next step would be to look at the input pulse train on those drive circuits and compare the pulse to a working game.

Another question: I assumed you are using standard incandescent lamps and that they are the correct ones. I don't think it will make much difference, but just poking what I can. Hoping someone has seen something like this before and might chime in suggestions.

#14 5 years ago

Yes just 44's, 89's and 906's. I bought the game a month ago and this was the last problem to repair. Digging through my parts I found another set of good game ROM's. Do you think that may be worth swapping out to see what happens? Sold the rest of my pins when the crazy money was out there. Picked this up for $1,000.00. Beautiful diamond plate game. Not much to be had for that kind of money anymore. I really do appreciate you trying to help.

#15 5 years ago

Ps: All of the boards, connectors, pins are all in pristine condition. Even the interconnect board. None of the boards were ever repaired before now. They were all pulled and all of the header pins are good. Nothing loose or broken.

#16 5 years ago
Quoted from JanS:

Digging through my parts I found another set of good game ROM's. Do you think that may be worth swapping out to see what happens?

Absolutely, that's easy enough to try. I am not familiar with software versions or changelogs for this title. At least swapping the software would rule that out. Sounds like it was a good buy.

#17 5 years ago

Swapped them out. No change.

#18 5 years ago
Quoted from JanS:Swapped them out. No change.

Bah. OK. If I think of anything else, I'll let you know.

#19 5 years ago

Thanks again. Checking all of the flash lamps now to see if maybe I have the leads crushed and making contact with each other. If I pull J11 off the interconnect board I can have normal flash lamps on the play field. So I'll live with that for now. Do you think maybe having 15 flash lamps in the insert could be causing the problem?

#20 5 years ago

Thanks again!

#21 5 years ago
Quoted from JanS:

Thanks again. Checking all of the flash lamps now to see if maybe I have the leads crushed and making contact with each other. If I pull J11 off the interconnect board I can have normal flash lamps on the play field. So I'll live with that for now. Do you think maybe having 15 flash lamps in the insert could be causing the problem?

I believe there are different interconnect board resistors required for using the insert board flash lamps. Found this on the net:

So the ratings for a non-prototype machines, with no flashers in the backbox, appear to be:

R1 = 3 ohm
R2 = 4 ohm
R3 = 11 ohm
R4 = 11 ohm
R5 = 5.6 ohm
R6 = 11 ohm
R7 = 11 ohm
R8 = 4 ohm
R9 = 11 ohm

If your machine has flashers in the backbox, refer to the manual, as it appears to be correct for those machines.

#22 5 years ago

This pin has a lot of crazy things going on. I played a few games and the ball popper stopped working. I put it in test for that coil and nothing. Grounded the transistor and it fired. While it was still in test for that coil after a few minutes it started firing again. Not to mention the upper display row of commas that come and go across 3/4 of the display from time to time.

#23 5 years ago

Sounds like an upper level logic issue, perhaps a bad PIA if I had to make a wild guess. If they are socketed, easy to swap. Carefully touch them with your finger after the game has been on. They can be warm....but should not be so hot to cause you to pull your finger away, if so would be suspect. It can be difficult to troubleshoot a flaky MPU board without a hard failure .don't give up. At the price you paid, replacing the board is an option.

#24 5 years ago

After all of that the game wouldn't keep memory. I pulled the board and saw that a battery had leaked in the past such a small amount it wasn't noticed. It ended up on 2 of the resistor arrays on 3 pins and even wicked up to a leg on an IC above the batteries. I bought a new replacement and ordered parts to repair the original. I'll sell it once it's repaired. It will be interesting to see if all the flash lamps work with the new board.

#25 5 years ago

Might be a stupid question but is the ground wire from the lower cabinet connected to the stud with the wing nut in the head? Are all the green ground connector wires connected in the head?
The pic shows the head stripped out but the wing nut and ground connectors are there. This is from my old Rollergames.

DSCN1856 (resized).JPGDSCN1856 (resized).JPG
#26 5 years ago

Yes all were connected. Read previous post. Tiny bit of acid damage on 3 pins of 2 resistor arrays and an IC leg. Thanks!

#27 5 years ago

Yeah, I guess when you said all the boards look like new at the beginning of the thread it kind of threw me. Battery corrosion is insidious and creeps onto component bodies on nearly a microscopic level. Sometimes you really have to look carefully to spot it when an attempt was made to clean it without replacing components.

#28 5 years ago
Quoted from JanS:

Yes all were connected. Read previous post. Tiny bit of acid damage on 3 pins of 2 resistor arrays and an IC leg. Thanks!

Did read it. Didn't see anything about ground strap or whether repairing the battery damage had fixed the problem. Thanks!

1 week later
#29 5 years ago

2 problems. CPU and the interconnect board. All the resistor values on it were different than the manual. No sticker on it so don't know what game it came out of. Replaced all the resistors with what the manual stated and all flash lamps are working perfectly now.

#30 5 years ago
Quoted from JanS:

2 problems. CPU and the interconnect board. All the resistor values on it were different than the manual. No sticker on it so don't know what game it came out of. Replaced all the resistors with what the manual stated and all flash lamps are working perfectly now.

Great job troubleshooting!

#31 5 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

I believe there are different interconnect board resistors required for using the insert board flash lamps. Found this on the net:
So the ratings for a non-prototype machines, with no flashers in the backbox, appear to be:
R1 = 3 ohm
R2 = 4 ohm
R3 = 11 ohm
R4 = 11 ohm
R5 = 5.6 ohm
R6 = 11 ohm
R7 = 11 ohm
R8 = 4 ohm
R9 = 11 ohm
If your machine has flashers in the backbox, refer to the manual, as it appears to be correct for those machines.

That's exactly the resistor values on the interconnect board I have. I guess it's like they said using up the insert flash lamp harness's that they had left until they ran out and never installing the flash lamp bulbs in the insert sockets. Because as I found out that's why they were flashing so dim. I replaced all of the resistors with the manual values and all are working great now. Thanks for the information.

Promoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
$ 1.00
Pinball Machine
Pinball Alley
 
From: $ 19.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
 
$ 12.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
UpKick Pinball
 
$ 12.50
Lighting - Led
RoyGBev Pinball
 
$ 18.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
$ 27.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
$ 27.00
Electronics
Yorktown Arcade Supply
 
Wanted
Machine - Wanted
Lafayette, LA
Wanted
Machine - Wanted
Springfield, IL

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/rollergames-flash-lamp-issue-help-needed and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.