(Topic ID: 195693)

Roller Games - Fuse 2A on Aux PSB

By MidnightOil

6 years ago


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#1 6 years ago

Hi. Just want to thank you, in advance, for taking the time to help me out.
A little background: The ball popper wasn't kicking the ball up into the wire form, the upper flip wasn't returning to its normal position, a few #44 and #555 bulbs were out, the flashers haven't flashed in the last year I've played the game and, in general, it needed some TLC. First, I found the broken wire to the ball popper and soldered it back on. Next was the upper flip. Broken spring. Replaced with new spring. I then went through all the bulbs. Wiped the good ones(had a layer of dust on them) and replaced a few burned out bulbs. Now that I have brightened up the PF and have corrected the mechanical issues, I took a moment to inspect all the wiring and connections. I noticed a 2 1/2 slo-blo under the PF was burnt and when I replaced it, it burned out again. I also ended up with F2A (5 Amp slo-blo) popped.
I pulled the schematics and traced it all out. I decided to remove the coils on this circuit to find which one was the culprit. The outhole kicker, shooter lane feeder and lock diverter share this circuit. First, unplugged the connector associated with those coils to F2A on the aux power supply board. Powered up the pin. Went through boot up. No blown fuse. I unsoldered the brown wires on the outhole kicker and shooter lane feeder coils. Powered up. No blown fuse. Next, I introduce the shooter lane feeder back into the circuit. Powered up. No blown fuse. Last, I introduced the outhole kicker. Powered up and after boot up, noticed that the fuse began to glow. Powered off immediately before it popped. Decided to to remove the lane feeder and lock diverter from the circuit. Powered up and completed boot up. This time the fuse began to glow but very slowly but getting brighter. Immediately powered off. Removed that coil from the circuit and reintroduced the other two coils since they were not blowing the fuse. I took the loose wire to the outhole kicker coil and tapped it to the tab it would normally be soldered on. The coil activated but was stuck in the energized state. I took a glance at the aux PSB and noticed the fuse begin to glow. Removed the wire and the fuse dimmed back to normal.
With this info I looked at two options replace the coil or the transistor that controlled that coil. Started with option A, replace coil. Tested by leaving the brown wire off and tapping it to the new coil, as I had done with the original coil. The new coil gave the same results as the original coil. So, I looked at the schematics according to the drawing, Q33 is the transistor for that coil. Before removing the CPU board, I wanted to see if there wasn't anything else that could be done.

Here are my questions :
1)If replacing that transistor does not fix the issue, what other component(s) should be investigated?
2)Is this issue somehow related to the flashers not working?(I noticed several other transistors also used for “A” and “C” circuits)(This game played for over a year without them)
3)If the game was working with the 2 ½ Amp fuse under the PF blown. What is it used for?

Again, I have some understanding of electrical/mechanical but not an expert. I'm pretty sure it's a “simple” repair but wanted some advice from you guys.

#2 6 years ago

1) I'll have to get a look at the schematic, but if the transistor doesn't fix the issue, it could be the chip that drives the transistor (typically a 7400 series chip, but again i don't have a schematic), or the chip behind that chip (typically a 40-pin PIA chip)...

Also--make sure it's the only transistor on its circuit--it may have a smaller 'pre-driver' transistor that should also be replaced if present. I'd pull the board out, and using the diode test on your dmm, test the transistor according to pinwiki or Clay's system 11 guide.

2) It sounds like the a/c relay isn't getting activated for some reason. Could be the transistor that activates it. You'll probably have to pull the board to check that one too.

3) i don't recall an under-playfield fuse on that game (i had a Rollergames for a few years)... Could you post a pic of the fuse in question? I'm curious where exactly it's located under the playfield.

#3 6 years ago

Thanks a lot for the help. As soon as I get back on the game, I'll get a picture of the under playfield fuse and try the suggested diode test. I will say that I did check the readings for at least three transistors for comparison. Q33 had a lower reading across one side and the center leg. The other two transistor readings were identical.
One correction. The F2A fuse is also a 2 1/2 Amp slo-blo not a 5 Amp slo-blo.

#4 6 years ago

Sounds like Q33 will need to be replaced then. It's most likely the cause for the outhole coil locking on. I grabbed the schematic from ipdb, here's a pic of the area we're focusing on. Note that Q33 (a TIP122 transistor, replaceable with a TIP102, which is a bit beefier and recommended for that reason) does have a predriver transistor at Q29 (a 2N4401 transistor), so to be certain it's recommended to change them both. The chip driving the predriver is a 7408 chip at U20. Beyond that is the solenoid PIA chip. In this case, hopefully replacing Q33 and Q29 is all you'll have to do. I'll check the schematic to see if i can find what that F2A fuse is for....

Edit: looking at the schematic, fuse F2A is the solenoid fuse. It makes sense it blew, since the outhole coil was locking on. With any luck, you'll find the fuse no longer blows (as hopefully replacing the transistors will stop the outhole coil from locking on)

Screenshot_20170814-012300.pngScreenshot_20170814-012300.png

#5 6 years ago

I agree.
Earlier this evening I stopped by the arcade for a few minutes to gather some more info. I did some tests across several of the transistors but this time recorded my results. Q25, Q30, Q31, and Q32 had .5 and .6 on each leg. Q33 had .6 and .15.
Just to make sure there weren't any bad diodes on the Aux PSB, I did another test on each diode. All seem to be in good shape.

Attached is the the picture of the fuse under PF. It is located in the center of the picture.(2 1/2 slo blo fuse) I believe this is supposed to be protecting a solenoid circuit or all solenoid circuits. Still reading over the schematics to understand what is all involved with that fuse.

Do you believe that perhaps the old issue with the flashers not working could be involved with F2A circuit failing?

IMG_20170814_004001 (resized).jpgIMG_20170814_004001 (resized).jpg

#6 6 years ago

In order for the flashers to work, the A/C relay must be activated. Looking at the schematic, i found Q8 is the transistor that activates the A/C relay (referred to as K1 in the schematic). Note that the A/C relay is considered solenoid 12, and can be treated as most of the other coils. It has its driver transistor, Q8 (another TIP122) and Q8 has a predriver transistor 2N4401 at Q4, which is driven by another 7408 chip, U18...which also leads back to the solenoid PIA chip.

As i recall, if you put the game in coil/flasher test, you should be able to hear the A/C relay click every time it tests a flasher. If you don't hear the relay click, then I'd investigate the above mentioned transistors etc.

Regarding the outhole coil issue: Based on your tests, I'd definitely replace Q33 and it's corresponding predriver for good measure.

I wish i still had my rollergames so i could check that under-playfield fuse. I bet it is for the solenoids though, as you suggested. Many games have an under-playfield fuse for the same purpose.

Also, i forgot to ask: does the deep freeze magnet work?

Edit: oddly enough, the schematic uses the circuit for the outhole coil as an example. Check it out:

Screenshot_20170814-035947.pngScreenshot_20170814-035947.png

#7 6 years ago
Quoted from MidnightOil:

Attached is the the picture of the fuse under PF. It is located in the center of the picture.(2 1/2 slo blo fuse) I believe this is supposed to be protecting a solenoid circuit or all solenoid circuits. Still reading over the schematics to understand what is all involved with that fuse.

The wires on both sides of the fuse are VIO-YEL so that indicates to me that it's protecting the special solenoids from 5J12-6. According to the manual these are:

#13 - Q15 = upper kickback
#14 - Q7 = lock kickback
#18 - Q71 = ramp diverter
#20 - Q69 = outlane kickback
#22 - Q79 = deep freeze magnet

I don't think the manual shows this fuse in the wiring diagram. I'm not surprised by that in the slightest.

#8 6 years ago

Didn't get to look at the game today. I'll check C circuit and the magnet and come back with my results once I do.

Appreciate the input. Makes sense why I'm having a hard time finding that fuse on the schematics. The drawings at least acknowledge that it exists.

#9 6 years ago

Here's the news. For now, replaced Q33 and Q29. Game is operating. Still don't have the flashers up. But that will need to wait until my next days off from work.

Really appreciate your time. I'll be back in a week or so to tackle the flashers.

#10 6 years ago

Well, the flashers are working. Replaced the fuse underneath the PF. Another feature that is not working is the kickback on the lower left side of the PF. Someone also told me that the ball is supposed to go around similar to Nascar.

#11 6 years ago

Spoke too soon. The game started kicking out balls to the plunger while the game was in play. Restarted the game and the original issue returned. There's something else going on in that machine.

#12 6 years ago

Damn! Did it blow any fuses? I suppose the outhole kicker got locked on again?

#13 6 years ago

I didn't get a chance to look into it after that happened. With the way it cycled after power was turned on, was the same way it did with the original issue. I suspect that the fuses did blow. Especially F2A. My concern is, if the game was playing ok once Q33 and Q29 were replaced but without the under PF fuse replaced, then what is the culprit that triggered the strange behavior with the balls kicking into the plunger and eventually have F2A blow (and most likely the under PF fuse) after replacing the under PF fuse?

Additional info acquired from other players while testing the game (prior to replacing under PF fuse):
1)The kickback hasn't been working for quite a while.
2)In the process of getting multiball, the previous captured ball is supposed to get kicked out and loop back into the lock, but hasn't been working longer than the kickback.

There will be a tech on location tomorrow. He has other work to do and depending on his list of priorities, might have time to look at Roller Games.

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