I still see no good reason for limiting to 300 games. There have been three possible reasons presented for this:

1. They can't build more than 300.

This is just false. If they can't build more than 300 per year, or 10 per month, or whatever, given enough time they can build more than 300. They could instead say: "We're planning to build 300 initially and only if there is enough demand in the future we will try to accommodate it." In other words it would be nice to leave the door open if one of their games becomes a major hit. A great title will do little to help the pinball scene if it isn't available in quantity.

2. They do this as means to get buyers locked in as soon as possible and justify going forward.

If they need the $300k deposit money to design and build the game, it's understandable. However that money could have come from selling more AMH's, but that too was limited and is sold out. So, again, it's pre-order buyers on the hook for funding the design of a game they have yet to see or play. If the game turns out to be great, there will be tons of unmet demand. If it's a dud, the pre-order buyers are left holding the bag.

3. They just want to do a small run of games and move onto the next title.

IMO, out of the 3 options this is the only plausible one. This would be an enthusiast decision rather than a business decision; a desire to build small runs of exclusive titles for a handful of collectors. It is what JPop was trying to do as well, but I was never a fan of that approach either. In Spooky's defense, at least each of AMH and SSI are being made in quantities greater than all of JPop's games combined, a minor improvement, but it's still half of a single Stern LE run, which rarely meets demand if a game turns out to be a great one.

But, I suppose there doesn't have to be a good reason, It's Spooky perogative to do what they want. Everything about the game sounds great, but as I won't be a pre-order buyer on principal, all games will likely be spoken for before I get to try it. It's a really awkward sales strategy for customers that all manufacturers continue to participate in.

Thanks for the reply, I did not think about license expiration because it was not a factor with AMH. In that I'll accept your limits are reasonable for what you are doing. I hope there is a way for future licensing to be unit based moreso than time based considering your limited production capacity.

Actually I'm usually good about reading an entire thread, but I'll admit in this case I didn't think I'd miss a lot in the 400 posts I skipped. In my defense I asked the question about production limits to Ben in another thread and no one, including Ben, brought up the license expiration issue.

Wait, are you saying there is no deposit due until game is available to play?

They can choose to increase production capacity. They can choose to extend licensing. But limiting to a 300 lifetime number didn't leave either of those options open for the future... that's the only point being made.

You guys keep making it sound like a no obligation pre-order, but it's simply not the case. Once artwork is revealed, buyers are obligated to put money down without being able to try it first for fear of losing a spot. Candy coat it all you want, but it is still a high pressure sales situation for customers... like finding a below market value pin on CL that everyone loves to hunt and compete for, but it remains an awkward NIB purchase scenario.

Sounds like a rhetorical question...I have or can play all of the latest releases from Stern/PPS/JJP and then purchase each NIB directly from the manufacturer. Sales were initially slow for AMH for good reason (the unknown), and while Spooky does a great job of bringing a game to a show it's not necessarily timely enough to get one... For example, a $1k bounty is being offered for an AMH spot because someone finally got to try it at a show, a little too late.

I'm simply not a fan of any limited release sales model. I'd rather see games played and owned by as many individuals and operators as possible around the world. That's largely where I'm coming from, not as much specific criticism for Spooky's sales approach, they are doing the best they can given their own constraints.

The info I received first hand from Spooky wasn't that complete, so thanks for paraphrasing it. The "play before buy" option is, I'm sure, going to be a best effort scenario like AMH, meaning a few might get to play it at a show before needing to make a decision, but most won't be able to... it's unavoidable for a limited edition game.

I calculated once that monetary losses on Stern LEs are slightly more probable than gains, and if you include JPop and Skit-B games, the general risk for LE purchases is not as rosy as everyone wants to believe.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the list fill shortly, looking forward to see how it turns out

This is my fear as well.

Not surprising to me at all... Stern also underestimated all of its big sellers in this genre... ACDC, Metallica, and KISS.

If fan layouts are the be-all-end-all of pinball then every game should have them... but it's obviously not the case. In other words, a non-fan layout doesn't work for #2, try another non-fan layout for #3... keep the creative juices flowing.

Exactly this as well. I've been spending more time on something as recent as Wheel of Fortune and marveling at how fun and interesting the entire bottom half of the is with the center post and save lanes under the flippers.

Not seeing a difference... both take names initially, a deposit upon reveal, and full payment closer to shipping time. A boutique game is like buying a Stern LE, limited supply usually requires purchase based on online images.... send in your money, cross your fingers and prey that it meets expectations in person.

Yea, Spooky's use of a highly talented artist producing all original artwork for the game is is doing it right.

I'm not yet convinced that Stern is in the "one up" game... they appear to be content cobbling together a handful of licensed images using photoshop for their products. MET was an aberration (DD was requested by Metallica), and KISS is a nod to the 70's artwork... both far better than anything else they do or have done.

Haha, nice Stern mockup! (mock pun intended)

Better to get those concerns handled up front than have people still bringing it up 20 years later

That is a good point, if individual bulbs are used behind the translite to highlight the characters it will work out very nicely.

"Grow up?" Unlike kids, grown ups care about the value of their purchases. The issue is that a small/hard cap allows only one of 3 possible outcomes:
(a) The game is great, if you didn't commit early, you're out of luck - hard to find and more expensive if you do
(b) The game stinks to play, customers who want to dump it will find it tough to do so without a substantial loss
(c) The game is good and generally met demand.

What does that mean? Speculation is inherent in the decision, both on the customer's side and on Spooky's side. I told Charlie from the outset I'd rather see him meet demand than force this speculation, but Charlie was very clear that he would rather keep it small so he can control production himself, but still move onto the next game in a reasonable amount of time. Ultimately I respect the decision, it means he is more interested in organic growth by producing more unique games than producing the same game for more profit. Can't argue with that.

Childish, yes, but how about the opposite situation: singing the praises of this game when all we've seen is an unlit translite? Lets all exercise a little patience and lay judgement only on the final result.

Actually GoT looks more like Medieval Castle than The Hobbit. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/medieval-castle

I saw the same. Music was great, but with a bird's eye view of the arena floor, I spent most of the show watching a bunch of roid rage guys knocking smaller fans to the floor, entertaining yet appalling. It's not that those types don't exist at all shows, but it was the only concert I've ever seen so many there for the hitting rather than the music.

I agree, it is a great idea to have this menu option plus swappable plastics as needed.

Wouldn't the dots be oval if you double the vertical and not the horizontal? Doubling both would make more sense (like the color MMr resolution of 256x64).

You worded it as best as you can, as there will be little or no opportunity to play it before purchase commitment is required.

+car+hotel+time off work... So logical yet so difficult to justify!

Right...most of the controversy in video modes is about the patterns and points. If it's worth a lot of points but random, tournament players will complain if one guy randomly gets a big award, and another didn't. If non-random it's pointless memorization. For some the gripe is that it's taking away time from pinball, the same way someone might complain about a drop target blocking a ramp and taking away the flow. So what's the ideal video mode... a randomized but entirely skill based video mode that's worth just enough points to be worth doing, but not too many, and short enough to minimize distraction from actual pinball? They can be fun though.

That was my first impression as well. The cabinet has a fun and interesting scene of characters, but the playfield is disappointing with only 2 characters and half a tombstone... nice images in their own right but they don't even integrate with each other... reminds me of Stern playfields (clip art with huge gaps). Cabinet art tends to get hidden between games, it's the playfield that is in your face.

Fortunately the most important part is game play, is it going to happen before deposits are required?

This is the strangest Pinside thread ever.... Spooky asked for 100% commitment based on pics and art alone, so when some people were not 100% happy with the playfield art, they were presented with "game play will make up for it", then questioned about being one of the few to be waiting for game play. All this after hundreds of threads about the drawbacks of pay before play, which is unavoidable on a run of 300 games. While I understand Spooky's 300 run limit, I don't understand the criticism of those who want to buy the game NOT based on art alone. I'm glad Charlie is making a gameplay video.

Kind of an odd comparison...Centaur cabinet isn't in the same league as the Centaur playfield nor the RZ cabinet art... I don't think anyone is asking for Centaur quality playfield here, the primary complaint is that the playfield has huge art gaps rather than one of theme consistency.

Stern tends to fill these gaps on their games with 12" laser trails and explosions, but that doesn't fit the theme. As picky as I am about playfield art, I was one of the few that was ok with ST's plasma from the outset... background textures can be nice, but the RZ playfield lacks texture in the gaps too.

Throwing the translite images on the playfield makes a big improvement. With GoT Stern gave in to the negative feedback by texturing the background on the shield on all models after the fact, and that made a big difference. They also re-colored the Premium playfield and added winter elements that made even more of a difference. (They didn't address the lack of theme but game play makes up for it). Ben has said that he can add some things to the playfield if necessary, and I'd be curious to see if something like that would alleviate the concerns. Until then, game play is king.

I looked at the image closer, and I believe that if it was higher res and more accurately rendered it would not look as busy. For example, the playfield image used to overlay the translite is over-saturated with LEDs and the plastics look pink, when they are actually brown. As a direct comparison the bottom of TWD playfield, is far busier than either of these alternatives, but I have never seen a complaint about that being too busy.

I agree, the art should integrate the lanes, targets, and inserts, but that integration isn't completely apparent here, but that isn't uncommon in the pinball world. As such I think any vertical art piece of Horley's could have worked just as well if not better in some cases, as he is generally good with vertical pieces with a center focus and texturing all around. The second image in the post above (https://beta.pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/rob-zombies-spook-show-international/page/53#post-2848866) is actually perfectly aligned for this playfield. At the end of the day if the game play is great, the playfield art dimishes in importance, just as it did with Tron, ACDC, and GoT, but the latter two also took particularly harsh criticism in the beginning for the same reasons.

I which I could agree with you, and I would have a year or two ago, but I no longer believe that buying pins lacks risk... there are plenty of threads covering examples (disregarding non-delivered games), but that would be off topic here. Feel free to start another thread if you want to debate it

Not a chance...very few titles command 5 figures regardless of production numbers.

Thank you for posting the game play video... the DMD animations are great, and it looks like a lot of fun to play!

+1... I suspect the playfield art is as finely detailed as the cabinet, but there's no way to tell without.

Thank you for both finally posting decent pics of the playfield. That was something Spooky should have done before deposits were due.

Nice... that is a substantial improvement.

The playfield art is the only common complaint on this game.

The mock-up plastics w/original playfield seem to tie it all together with the cabinet and translite art.

playfield_new_plastics_(resized).jpg

Here it is with original upper PF

playfield_new_plastics2_(resized).jpg

I like this idea. When I had a Road Show my wife would get excited when she could enter her initials... she isn't a very good player but Road Show is one of the few pins that tracks daily high scores so she didn't have to score a billion points to enter her initials, just be able to exceed the default daily high scores. The ability to add this and/or the ability for individuals to track their own high scores actually provides a lot of intangible benefits as such.

Also similar, achievements do add to the intangible values of those games... doesn't have to be a lot to track, but people get really excited about achieving mode-based high scores like song scores in ACDC and CIU in MET, or combo champion in XM. It's one of the reason code is being praised in newer machines.

I have yet to see an initial video of any game that makes me say "I must have it"... pinball requires hands-on play. Also, there's only so many shots that can be reasonably designed into in a standard width game, so you find that the likes of ACDC, MET, LOTR, GOT are all run-of-the mill fan layouts with 2 flippers, 2 lower slings and 3 clustered pops that are differentiated from other games, and each other, primarily by theme and rules.

RZ is at least a change from the normal by adding 2 extra slings and dispersing the pops around the playfield... so at this point it boils down to a compelling ruleset that takes full advantage of the theme and playfield design. That's a wait-and-see at this point.

I agree with this. I was also thinking a long row of drop targets would be a perfect way to take extra advantage of the 4 slings... though not a clue where to put them on this game... maybe next?

A headphone jack would only solve half the issue. Would be ideal to have separate modesty/adult settings for both sound and DMD animations.

I don't know what are the plans for this pin but censoring is typically straight forward. For nudity, the DMD can have same animations, except clothed, and curse words are commonly replaced in music for radio edits.

Then you would likely be surprised at the number of owners who have kids, or will have kids visit at some point. Metallica has settings for both "Adult Content" and "Insult Level" even though there are no adult DMD animations, and GNR has a "Modesty Setting" for just the match animation.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, even an unpopular one.

Interesting comparison... BH is one of my favorites, the similarities include open playfield, dispersed pops, and mid-playfield slings. While the purpose of the open playfield in BH is for the lower playfield window, both put a premium on action. Keep in mind BH is a widebody and it's 4 pops and 2 mid-playfield slings are ideal for its many targets, but RZ steps up the wild action with 4 slings and 3 pops scattered around a smaller playfield. RZ seems to be a combination of modern shooter/fan layout with relentless action.

I also just noticed I own several games that have playfields as open as RZ including BH, Centaur, SM, IM, BBH, oddly enough all sitting in the same row.

Armor looks great!

For those who have played both, Is it more or less fun than Ghostbusters?

Thanks for the actual game play reviews... Pics have been shown to death at this point. Keep up the rules suggestions.

It's worth noting that the single ramps in BBH and Avatar and even the double ramps in IM aren't worth a ton of points outside of modes either. The last thing I want is a ramp-all-day game... balance is of utmost importance.

Yea outside of the Dead Flip streams I find little value in videos.... I was hoping for more descriptions of first hand experience since it is the first time the game has been available to the public. The following thread has more first hand thoughts than the RZ thread itself: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/tpf-best-new-pinss

Do the inserts ghost without them?

In my experience the only difference between regular and premium bulbs of same type is simply the addition of non-ghosting circuitry, no impact on color or brightness.

That's a great answer... PPS quickly swore off factory customizations after MMr, but Spooky is making this feel like a boutique game experience by offering optional upgrades.

To the original question, yes colored LEDs do cost the same as white, but the difference boils down the increase in parts costs (cheaper to order 50,000 white bulbs than smaller quantities of 8 different colors)... and there is an increase in labor involved in installing different bulbs for different inserts in the assembly line, and time is money. It's no more complicated than that.

It is true only 1 of the 12 songs on the new one exceeds 3 minutes... but Hellbilly Deluxe averages under 3 minutes per song as well

Making it a good tournament game is a great goal to have... over time players do learn how to exploit holes in the ruleset.

Thanks for the pics. A bass amp!

Yea, not as much wiring as I'm used to seeing, looks clean... and only one service rail. Stern should take note of this... costs of the playfield support are cut in half, and much better than the pegs.

The ultimate flow game?

Just what we need, another undefinable game play term!

While I understand what you are saying there are most definitely elements of randomness in pinball... for example when a magnet flings a ball the player has no control of the direction, which could result in STDM or outlane drain. If there is no magnet your argument becomes more valid as most behaviors can be attributed to aim... "You know, if you didn't flip the flipper at that instant, hitting the ball 1/2 inch up on the middle right bumper at 3.97 mph it wouldn't have bounced off the right ramp standup, hit the top of the sling, and into the outlane. Now if it had been waxed 10 games prior you would have been fine!"

RZ skill shot is definitely a step up from the common (and lazy) top lane selector design which requires no skill to achieve in 99% of ball plunges.

I got to play RZ this weekend, was overall pleased with the game. I'll go over several thoughts.

The whole game presentation is amazing. The sound effects are some of the best I've heard on a pinball game, and the sound system it has will fill the biggest room in the biggest house in the world, in perfect clarity. The color display animations are great as is the color changing translite, but both come across fairly dim in a well lit environment, particularly the LCD display.. I noticed it in videos and pics, and it's definitely no brighter in person. In a dark room, the translite and display may be just fine, but then the playfield brightness comes into play. Fortunately that's resolvable as many have shown with brighter LEDs and/or spotlights. AMH LCD is dim too, but it's a green display with ghosts, so one can certainly argue both games are suppose to be dark and spooky, but I would like to be able to turn up the display brightness more than I've seen so far.

My primary uncertainty focused on game play... particularly is it too random? Fortunately I do not feel it is a brutal game... ball times are medium length, lots of people were starting multiballs including 1000 corpses, and the upper slings don't do anything dangerous... all feeds back to the flippers are fully controllable. The way 1000 corpses feeds balls to the playfield is perfect... not too many too fast like every other game... nice touch. Iron Man is definitely more brutal than RZ. With that out of the way, the success and longevity of the game rests entirely in the rules, but with only a handful of plays I have little feedback in that area.

The particular game at the RMPS had issues every other time I walked up to the game over the weekend, primarily due to a bad flipper assembly. Considering the other flipper never had issues, we have to assume it's an isolated thing, as by the end of the show the game was playing perfect. Once a ball got stuck on a plastic in front of the robot, but that may have not been an issue if the robot moved during a ball search (The robot was not working in this game). Another time a ball went missing and the game was just stuck... and a glass off search never actually found the ball and after several minutes the game was ok again, so maybe a trough issue? The good news is that there were 2 AMH's at the show played non-stop the entire weekend without a single issue that I saw. I've seen both GB and TH down on location with various issues in their first week, so making a bulletproof location game out of the box is an industry wide issue.

Ultimately everyone I talked to really enjoyed looking at and playing the game.

I saw this as well... while the VUK never fully failed, On several occasions it had to try several times to get it to the upper playfield. It's just a little thing that could be better tuned at the factory.

Yea, pinball has to be a hands-on experience, and game play videos are not all that useful outside of player reactions. Thinking about the last few Dead Flip videos on new game releases, I thought the group had a little more fun playing RZ than they did GB or GOT.

Your desire to be moral is commendable but you should accept that there are others who feel it's more important to make a buck. Chances are if you attend concerts and sporting events you have bought tickets on a similar secondary market, as tickets are no longer made available to fans in quantities that they used to be because the system has been hijacked by profiteers. It's unfortunate but where there's a buck to be made, there is someone trying to do it.

Sounds like you are looking for a storyline in the rules. Most games lack one but it's a good suggestion.

That's the way to do it, no LEs!

You are correct but I've seen at least one case where the leg is a little bent on an edge and nearly touches the cabinet even with one of those standoffs.

Do we call that color Hemi Orange?

Interesting... are the sling posts taller than most games?

No, I believe LE has bronze powdercoat and the others are black.

It was a new process for Spooky as well, including coordination with both Horley and Rob Zombie on playfield art approvals, and constraining the areas. The playfield reflects some of those challenges, but it's pretty nice.

Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't you get more switch hits keeping balls active off the 4 slings and 3 pops than letting them drain for a single switch in the trough? This game isn't designed like the cookie-cutter Stern that feeds balls from the shooter directly into the pops below the lanes.

I'm assuming the ball is dropping onto the switch slot? Most games have this design and the game has to be routed for years before significant damage is seen, which is typically depressed wood and a little splintering on the edges of the wood. Neither clear coat nor mylar will avoid the inevitable wood denting there, but there are cliffy protectors for it that may help. Personally I'd just apply some hard as nails if the area starts getting noticeable damage and not worry about it otherwise.

That's awesome. Spooky's code situation compared to Stern is like night and day.

Can't wait!

It is definitely uncanny how accurate their projections were over this 2 year design and build process, as you can see with the almost perfect straight line start to finish. It's a model business.

I had the same excellent experience with R&L.... no damage and the delivery guy was super nice, helped me bring it into the house without hesitation, then refused to take any tip. In fact he was willing to help me carry it in, literally, with each of us on a side, even down stairs! When I got out my dolly he was happy.

Yea, RZ never had the power to drive significant graphics, but if you think about it, in no game made prior to the past few years did anyone actually considered the DMD as part of the "art package" because you either had none (EM/SS), or used a DMD with resolution significantly less than a single icon on a smart phone. The graphics on RZ are better than the likes of IM, SM, Avatar with their blurry greyscale video clips... but that fact never took away from the aura of those games because the DMD was not intended have "artwork"... it was, and still is in all 2020 games, just a scoreboard with simple graphics to indicate your mode. If I turned off the LCD on Munsters I would enjoy the game just as much.

My collection consists of games that are unique playing experiences, and RZ fits the bill... it's just a blast to play, and all the quirks just add to the aura of it.