Over-promising is what causes crowdfunded projects to fail.

Let's say you want to build 30 $500 3D printers and do a 15k Kickstarter for the funds. And then you make 1 million! (and yes, this happens a lot)

Now you owe people 2000 printers. Instead of doing it in your garage on weekends with friends and family, you'll have to rent space, hire people, start an LLC, the whole she-bang.

The business model has completely changed but your price-per-unit didn't. Sure you get better economies of scale for components but labor (the real killer) is going to be far higher.

This is the point where poorly-run Kickstarters go 1-2 years over schedule and run out of money (since they're having to use money to build the business not the product)

Chuck is choosing not to have that problem (because he has plenty more just building games!) He may piss off people who don't get on the list, but more importantly he's making sure people who do get to put down money will get their game in a timely manner.

You can't compliment Spooky for succeeding thus far, and them beg them to make all the mistakes their competition has.

I can see viewing this problem from a few positions: (perhaps there are more)
My assertion is that some people right now are refusing to view the problem from multiple positions before drawing a well weighted conclusion.

1. What's best for pinball?
2. What's best for spooky?
3. What's best for a person now on the 300 list?
4. What's best for a person who didn't make the 300 list?
5. What *will* be best for a person who's paid a deposit and is waiting for a ship date?
6. What *will* be best for a person who did not get a *chance* to make a deposit, or is waiting to see shipping games to purchase?

To some, I say, "Beware over-weighting your conclusions from positions 3 or 5."

-mof

Sure! That totally excuses calling strangers 'idiots' on Pinside...lol.

So, the Spookster can come in here and clear this up bingo bango...

Very well put Ben.

I'm so proud of what Chuck has done. He's the first genuine boutique success in our hobby, where others have failed, and badly. (And Ben is a big part of it too!)

And he's done it his way. And if he succeeds or fails (success please!) it will be on the back of his choices, and how he chose to do business. He cares about his customers, he cares about the people working for him, and he cares about the games.

I think it's great that everyone is so excited about this that they want more. It's a sign that this was a great idea. (Um, hello, called it! ) So Spooky should take it as a compliment.

But that doesn't mean they need your business acumen!

Why? Why in any way do you care how many games they make? Assuming they make a set number of LE's, how is it any of our business if they make 300 or 3,000 non LE games? Why do we feel like we have the right to dictate that?

When Spook show international shows up on my driveway I will be excited about it, If 299 or 2999 other people get to feel that excitement its all good for me.

I don't think that's what people are saying. They just want to simply know if it's 300 and that's IT....or 300 and maybe more can be made.

I don't really see what the problem is if Spooky produces more than 300 units and I am not really sure why it is bothering some? The pricing on the product is in line and competitive. It's not like Spooky is asking $16k for a limited run machine than raising the production numbers. They are asking $6k for a limited run machine, which people regularly hand over to Stern for an incomplete game that they will produce as many units as they like and will also re-run again and again. In short, at $6k you are just buying a standard pin if you want the limited edition go give Stern $9k to $10k for one.

Same question, why? Why does the number of non LE games influence their purchasing decision? Why do people need to know if production is capped before they pay, and why is it unfair to make more?

It's back to this notion that we have to feel special for owning a hard to get pinball game, it's so lame.

It's okay if people want to know the run is continuous so they can wait and play before they buy, but that's not the discussion. The discussion is people having their feelings hurt because their non LE pinball machine went to the line for another run. I can't figure out a single reason people would have a problem with that, except that they want to own something others can't have.

Again, it's not. There seem to be 2 contradicting statements made about the number and time frame. People, including me, just want to know the simple answer. And, yes, I'm on the List.

Well after getting the first good nights sleep I've had in 2 weeks and walking around like a zombie at Expo trying to keep myself together yesterday, it sure is fun to wake up to a bunch of people freaking out over something that isn't gonna happen.

There will be 300 Rob Zombie games. Period. Do I hate thinking we could have sold more and grown our little company a little further? Yep... a little. But my word is my word, the contract is for 300, and that's double the number of games we made / sold on the first game. Once we figure out how to build 300, we'll build bigger numbers if the demand exists on whatever game #3 is.

Until we show it, take the deposit, and ship the games... nothing is officially "sold out". We'll go down the customer list in order. Some of you will hate it, start a thread in here about why it sucks and how it could have been so much better, and not buy the game. Others will see it, like it, buy it, and be happy they did. Personally I'd rather see people who like the theme & game play buy it so I don't have to hear about how something I've killed myself to make and care a lot about, is the worst thing ever put together by man.

We don't do everything right... we never will. I'm not going to screw you out of your money. You buy a game from us, you'll get it... and I don't want to make you wait years to do so. We're making lots of improvements in build quality on this, and putting up a new shop to get production moving quicker. These are all huge risks for my family, and we're not going to pre-sell kickstart crowd fund a damn dime of it. We do it by building games and working hard or we don't do it at all.

I'm going over to the Greg Freres appreciation thread... that's MUCH more interesting to me.

I'm in on RZ because of the theme, art and Spooky - final desicion pending seeing the full package of course. Full stop. Nothing else would progress if I didn't genuinely want to support the pin itself and have faith in Spooky. However, part of the decision to buy a pin without playing it, is the knowledge that I can resell if it doesn't appeal to me after hands on time. Not sell for a profit, but moving it without substantial loss. To *NOT* think about those factors is short sighted. Not my plan to sell it if I buy it, but you never know. It's why would never own a Stern LE (not that I would anyway, but just making a point.). I am sure this will all be cleared up soon enough, just again pointing out there are valid reasons to want to understand resale value potential without 'ruining pinball'!

It doesn't matter...UNLESS a definite number is claimed earlier and then it changes. If it wasn't stated that the contract didn't allow for more than 300 to be made, then there would be no discussion. I don't think anyone here is outwardly complaining if they make more than 300, or would fault them for maximizing profit, it's just a communication change that can worry people spending $6k on a toy (and some people are interested in collecting expensive toys for their rarity).

Ultimately I'd hope the majority of buyers genuinely like either Rob's music or his movies and are not in it for an investment. I had noted this as a dream theme of mine before any announcement and still can hardly believe it's actually happening.

There! Right from the horses mouth, now can we move on....

I had a reply all ready to go but since Charlie has spoken, there's no need. Congrats to those of you who are on the list for RZ and kudos for having the confidence in Spooky to support them.

Well said Charlie now im go play some pinball

Can't speak for everyone, but I'll offer up one thought I've had about why I'd want to know the plans before placing an order...

I was not in on AMH early. After it got some public play time and critique, I wanted in as my first NIB. But, by then it was too late. Even though I don't like the idea of buying a game without getting the "full picture" (e.g., personal play time, reviews from early owners, etc.), I might take a gamble and just commit to the game if I knew only 300 would be made and it was a now or never decision. However, if I knew that production would be scaled to demand, I'd definitely wait. Would be a serious bummer if I made the decision based on the 300, found that the game wasn't what I wanted, and then realized I didn't need to rush because the supply wasn't as limited as I was told it was.

Again, "we'll make as many as we feel like" is just as legitimate of a position as "there will only be 300". Just would like to know which it is when I have to pay a deposit.

<<Note added as an edit: Took a long time to type my post and see that Charlie has since clarified expectations. Statement above still explains why it was important for me to have clear expectations. Thanks Charlie for being clear.>>

Pinside, can we get some functionality to upvote more than once? Dude flat out gets it. Keeping it REAL!

I could start a Spooky appreciation thread next!

In fact in my Greg thread I mentioned how I had wrote that open letter to Stern about doing Rob Zombie. I'm so glad they didn't, and that Spooky is doing it instead. I can't think of a more perfect match. The stories you told at your Expo talk about working with Rob just felt so right.

Being a man of your word means something to me. I'm on the list for RZ. Whether I buy one or not I have nothing but respect for Chuck.

I would much rather see Charlie scale slowly and succeed than trying to maximize profit and end up failing (and not only letting his family down, but everyone in Benton that works for him now). If you look at any business, the successful ones grow slow, especially in the beginning. I'm sure the thing he's worried the most about is quality, and I think he's learned a lot from AMH. Remember how much a bad title affected williams in the 80's and 90's? One bad title (theme or flow) could kill sales, and then you're rushing the next title to make up for it. Be glad Charlie isn't like Jersey Jack. Promising the world, then increasing the price every year because he underestimated the BOM. Delaying releases, creating multiple limited editions of the current title while the next title is still being worked on. I'm still hearing issues of boards going bad from owners. Be happy Spooky Pinball is also striving to keep the price under $6k (even with a real license). Most companies would have happily bumped it up to $6500.

If someone didn't appreciate Spooky and Rob Zombie enough to get in when the 300 was announced, then they shouldn't cry about wanting more than 300 games. It's ridiculous.

I was not big on AMH when I first saw it. It just didn't seem evil enough to me, I don't mean that in a bad way either, I just thought the art and toys were a bit too kid friendly to be really scary and "spooky", and called "Most Haunted" if that makes any sense.. I wanted more blood, guts, gore, screams, & terror...

In fact, I didn't even have the decency to give it a try last year. What a mistake that was. After finally giving AMH a chance recently at York, I'm wishing I would have given it a chance before, and have been hoping for a chance to spend some serious time playing it as soon as I can track it down somewhere again. It was fast, furious, fun and exciting and I wanted more and more of it as I played.

It's difficult to commit to something sight unseen, and unplayed. But after finally playing AMH, I have no doubt that the Rob Zombie pin will be an awesome game in many ways. And there was no financial risk required to even get on the list in the first place. I may be kicking my own ass a bit for not just "going for it", and I would have no question had I played AMH before the RZ announcement. But I'll be damned if I'm going to be disrespectful enough to cry to Charlie about it in an effort to try and get my selfish kiddie way.

By the way Charlie, thank you for your vision and contributions to pinball! I really admire your approach and how you are doing it. I look forward to meeting you finally at the next show.

Charlie, you guys are doing it right. Don't ever change a thing.

To the naysayers.

Think you can do better?
Start your own company.

No preorders, no crowd funding.
Quit your job and make and sell your own games like Charlie did.

In short, put up or shut up.

Many have tried, many have failed.

Spooky have success because they are 100% up front and honest and they bust their asses every day to make a good product and follow up with good custome support. That is truly the American way.

Again, think you can do better?

Put up or shut up.

Thanks for the clear communication charlie!!

Chuck mic drop!

Now we can move on with our lives!

Well said.

Unfortunately, Spooky doesn't have the capacity to build a game for everyone who wants one. That, in turn, creates the situation where there is "pressure" on the potential buyer to make a spot decision (without having all of the sound, buying decision facts in hand) about whether it is more important to have the game or not have the game by risking, what is for most people, a materially large sum of money. The risk being that the game you get doesn't meet you expectations should you get one in the first place.

I am certain (but do not know first hand) Charlie doesn't like this situation himself and it is not an environment he is intentionally trying to create. It's simply a byproduct of his current manufacturing capability and capacity.

We as buyers may not like that, but until Spooky is built out enough to support demand 100%, it's the way it will be. I'm ok with that personally. What's important is for Spooky to succeed.

You are overlooking the option of selling it if you don't like it. Much more will be shown before any money is taken. If demand is so great, buy it and it it's not for you then sell it. It's not going to depreciate 50 percent in a short time. Even some of the less desirable Stern titles still sell for 75 percent of purchase price a couple years after release.

Not at all. I completely agree. What I did not really state is the risk of the game being a real dud across the board. That could make reselling it an issue, meaning you've spent a lot of money on something that you don't like and that nobody else likes either. I honestly don't expect that to happen with RZ, but it is a possible outcome, no matter how remote. In that situation, you're looking at a loss to unload the game. Some people can deal with that loss and others can't. We all know this isn't a specific issue to RZ or Spooky. Anyone pre-buying a game runs that risk.

I understand the situation (which I include myself in) of wanting to play a game first before spending the money. The problem here, as stated in a post above with AMH, is that people could ultimately play and like the game, but because of limited production none are available for purchase. So while you have the means to buy it, you can't.

Again, it's a reality of the marketplace today. As it relates to Spooky, I am confident that one day they'll get to a point where they will be able to fill demand 100% and none of this will matter.

"Spooky have success because they are 100% up front and honest and they bust their asses every day to make a good product and follow up with good custome support. That is truly the American way."

Amen.

You take risk, have success doing it the right way, you get rewarded.

"Grow up?" Unlike kids, grown ups care about the value of their purchases. The issue is that a small/hard cap allows only one of 3 possible outcomes:
(a) The game is great, if you didn't commit early, you're out of luck - hard to find and more expensive if you do
(b) The game stinks to play, customers who want to dump it will find it tough to do so without a substantial loss
(c) The game is good and generally met demand.

What does that mean? Speculation is inherent in the decision, both on the customer's side and on Spooky's side. I told Charlie from the outset I'd rather see him meet demand than force this speculation, but Charlie was very clear that he would rather keep it small so he can control production himself, but still move onto the next game in a reasonable amount of time. Ultimately I respect the decision, it means he is more interested in organic growth by producing more unique games than producing the same game for more profit. Can't argue with that.

Just to be clear.........I would like to be the first to reserve RZ # 300, to put next my new AMH ............and I would also like to officially put myself on the pre-pre-order list for Spooky pin #3...... which I'm sure will be a Freres/Nordman Elvira masterpiece!!!.........we can all appreciate that.

Much respect !

Come on. Everybody knows game #3 is Road House.

I love pinball and I love Rob Zombie music. But I don't have time to keep up with pinside on a regular basis. There are just to many posts. To be a real fan do I need to follow pinside on a daily basis too? No. I missed the initial announcement. Sucks. Is what it is. Super fan loses out... Disappointed about it all.

Spooky doesn't have to be greedy with pricing as some have suggested. His #150 was for charity. I wonder what would happen if he baked in $2,000 to his final 20 machines for charity? Or how about $500 on every machine? It's simply supply and demand. Nice position with all this demand to pile on for charity. Would be great to see this.

What happened to Bible Adventures?

Don't try that Ben, many already know it is Ben Heck's BIBLE ADVENTURES whether or not they were listening to you talk to Scott at Superdawg...

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/next-ben-heck-game-bible-adventures

Brad

Don't sweat it. You can still buy one. You just won't be the initial recipient.

#301... . . . .

The market is overdue for a solid Swayze game, although I personally would love to see Bible Adventures.

Bible Adventures staring Patrick Swayze, in oscar award winning break-out role, as Eve.
Caitlyn Jenner hails, "Best casting of 2016, a Must See!!"

dup

I sure hope you have the Sam Elliot Double Douche comment as a callout!

I haven't seen anyone trying to make the case for more games comment on what that does to the company long term. Charlie and the Spooky team have it right in my opinion. Even if they tried to meet demand and scale up to meet that, then they are on the hook for machine 3 to create or exceed that demand in order to keep the much larger shop and crew employed.

After watching the Expo talk, I can see he see's his staff as LONG term investments and is working and growing in a way that can ensure he can keep them all busy and paid continuously. That alone is no small feat especially in a field like Pinball where change and delays are part of normal day to day business.

Kudos for the mature long view and for sticking too it and not taking the quick and easy temptations of such high demand. Keeping it small an manageable means they have room for mistakes and delays that are inevitable without harming the staff they invested in or their reputation as a manufacturer.

Well said. Thread over! This is the smartest sentence written about those said to have missed the list. Good job Spooky - can't wait to see this one!

So nice to see a pinball manufacturer that gets it. Amazing how rare integrity is in the pinball business world. I hope you guys kill it on Zombie's pin.

I heard game #3 is going to have a DIY option with Ben and Charlie coming to your house and spending a week to help build it for an extra $1k?

Spend all night thinking that one up did ya?

No, but perhaps a custom 3d printed version of your dog on the playfield because ya know, that's what people are really clamoring for.

Next license confirmed! The Spooky Dog Show: Complete the dog training modes for the Purina Wizard Mode!

IMG_7440-NDS-ring630mk112211.jpg