(Topic ID: 218176)

Roadshow eyelids up coil stuck on

By SPARKY70

5 years ago


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Fuse Roadshow (resized).JPG
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schematics q54 zoomed (resized).png
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#6 5 years ago
Quoted from SPARKY70:

Pin 5 of U-4 turns on Q-53 by going high.

This is incorrect, Q53 (2N5401) is a PNP transistor, it requires a low on its base to turn on.

Quoted from SPARKY70:

The rest of my solenoids work correctly, so I also checked all U3 pins and It tests exactly the same as U4. It seems like hi is normal for pin 5??

Yes, a high output of the 47LS274 is normal for all de-energized coils.

The following diagram is drawn in an energized state with green highlights representing low signals, and red representing high signal levels. Also keep in mind that regardless of any circuit operation, if you have a path to ground at pin 4 of J129, your coil will energize.
PDB Driver (resized).pngPDB Driver (resized).png

#9 5 years ago

Sparky,

While probing around on this board its always a good idea to have your high voltage removed; you should be able to accomplish this by leaving your coin door open.

Quoted from GRUMPY:

It is safe to test all 3 for the predriver, the collector of the TIP102 will have high voltage on it and should not be tested with a logic probe. It can be tested with your voltmeter.

The best way to check the collector on Darlington transistors (TIP102) is you check the metal tab; the metal tab on this type of transistor package is always tied to the center leg, which in this case if the collector. Don't be surprised if you have no voltage here since a previous post indicated your have the coil disconnected, having this disconnected will remove the +50V from the transistor as this voltage comes from the coil, not the PDB.

#15 5 years ago

I just realized that you purchased this game with this problem. Please do me a favor and remove J127 and leave it disconnected for the remainder of your tests. Also verify there is no connector on J129, as it's unused in your game. I'm asking you to do this as I don't trust the playfield wiring since this problem existed at the time of purchase.

Re-check the same items Grumpy had you test, if you still have a bad reading on the TIP102 then replace it.

Quoted from SPARKY70:

Here is a tech tip I learned the hard way. Any time you have a shorted driver, you always replace the shorted driver, predriver and diode and also test the coil for the correct ohms. This only cost you an additional .60 cents in parts and will save you lots of time and frustration.

I personally never do this, but I understand the reasoning behind it, especially on an unknown machine as you have no idea what a previous tech did to this game, and the cost is definitely not prohibitive. If your confident in your soldering abilities then I say go for it.

#16 5 years ago

Other thoughts...

Your new transistor should not have blown this fast so what could have caused it to blow?

1)

Quoted from SPARKY70:i read something about the center leg needing to make contact on the component side, and if not, the coil will fire once, then blow the tip 102. Mine has fired more than once, but i kill power to it each time so it dosn't burn up.

This can happen if the thru hole or trace was damaged when removing the TIP102 as this would break the connection the flyback diode. Without the flyback diode an excessively high voltage will be applied to the drive transistor when it turns off; this will destroy the transistor, the number of hits it can survive depends on the transistor.

Testing procedure ... perform a resistance check between the metal tab on the transistor and the anode side of the flyback diode. Note, the anode is the side WITHOUT the stripe.

2) Installing a coil with a diode and hooking up the wires incorrectly, performing this action will usually blow your fuse, destroy both the coil diode and the drive transistor due to excessive current flow. Under these circumstances your coil should not fire unless the diode burns open removing it from the equation; however this is not the normal fail mode for rectifier diodes.

3) Your flyback diode (D22) was replaced backwards. This instance would result in the same conditions as listed in number 2.

#20 5 years ago
Quoted from SPARKY70:

Testing procedure ... perform a resistance check between the metal tab on the transistor and the anode side of the flyback diode. Note, the anode is the side WITHOUT the stripe.

i just did this test:
game off
meter on 2000K ohms
one lead on metal tab.
other lead on non striped side of D22 diode.
reading was 000

That's exactly what you should have, so you know it its making good contact.

Quoted from SPARKY70:

not that it means much, but the game did not seem to be abused before i got it.
i think it may have been only used in a home. it was dirty, but it cleaned up very nice.
still has all matching serial number boards, and they all looked untouched.

there are barely any marks on the game, in other words, it was not a basket case..

That huge, and it does mean a lot, sounds like you found a gem with a relatively minor issue.

Usually intermittent problems are connection problems, possibly related to data lines. The thing I don't like is that you are only seeing an issue with one solenoid; while its unlikely, you can have an intermittent problem with the Sol3 clock signal from the MPU; a quick and easy way to rule this out would be to flip over your ribbon cable between the MPU and PDB, this would place the current Sol3 clock wire on an unused pin. If this or data line 4 had an issue, you really should see this across multiple coils though

#23 5 years ago
Quoted from SPARKY70:

Similar to the way a fuse can be substituted with a circuit breaker so you dont go through a handful of $1 fuses during diagnosis, Im curious if there is a way to substitute a coil with a buzzer or something so that you dont blow through $11 coils during tests.

There is a testing procedure where you can substitute a 12V Lamp for your coil and use the TIP102 to activate it, but it can be a little dangerous if not done properly.
I know how to do it, but I believe Zaza made a nice graphic of how to do it, if your interested I can see if I can find it.

1 week later
#43 5 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

I normally use a Xacto knife to remove the carbon deposits. If you need to build up the board use some super glue.

This will work fine.

The following information is provided for information only and not recommended for a single board repair.

Pro tip:
My main goal on every repair is for the board to look like it was never repaired.

For this type work I use a high speed drill with a ball mill to grind out the damaged area. I will typically fill the ground area with epoxy http://www.circuitrework.com/features/627.html there are dyes available to add to the epoxy in order to match it with the PCB color http://www.circuitmedic.com/products/115-1322.shtml. When grinding out an area next to a pad/trace like yours, I will usually pre-drill the pad for a replacement eyelet, then heat and lift the pad out of the way before grinding in order to avoid damaging this connection point...the broken thru-hole will be fixed in the next step.

Quoted from SPARKY70:

What is a good way to handle the solder pads on the rear since they do not have any traces?

The best fix (permanent) is to install circuit board eyelets of the appropriate size, this involves drilling a slightly larger hole through the board in order to accommodate the eyelet. If a run is involved with an intact pad, you install the eyelet thru this connection point and pre-solder these points to ensure a solid connection before installing your component; this involves filling the hole AND flowing the connection between the pad and trace.

NOTE: most people will not have any of the materials mentioned here to do this type of work; the cost of obtaining these items is very high and not cost effective for repairing a single board.

#46 5 years ago
Quoted from SPARKY70:

Hi pin guy, thank you for the additional info. I will check out those links.

Im not sure if i explained correctly, but i believe my center hole is fine because it is making contact through the board as it should.

The left and right hole are just missing the pads on the solder side, so i think the eyelet isnt needed in my case??

it's not, I like to provide additional information as you never know who all will come across this thread. The links are additional information on how to repair scorched boards and the products available to perform the repair. But again, none of this is directed at repairing a single board.

#50 5 years ago
Quoted from SPARKY70:

I stopped into my local electronics shop, but he does not have the solder pad set like you pictured.

I'm not surprised as unfortunately this type of work is no longer mainstream

Here is a link to the board repair kits, you will need to pick out the one(s) that best fit the type of repair you are performing.
https://www.all-spec.com/Catalog/Soldering-Rework/PCB-Board-Assembly-and-Repair/Circuit-Board-Assembly-Repair-Kits

7 months later
#55 5 years ago
Quoted from zoda:

It’s not easy to get a connection top side on the large capacitors even though i have flux, needed to add extra wires on the backside to get a solid connection on c5, c7 and c9.

Doesn't look like the bridges were easy either

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