(Topic ID: 336143)

Road Show owners -- please help!

By jaybird5619

1 year ago


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  • 21 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by Pin_Guy
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#1 1 year ago

Fellow RS owners … I’m hoping one of you can help me.

If your RS has a Power Interlock switch inside the coin door can you pls help me determine where the wires from each lug of the switch go to/come from?

A previous owner completely removed the switch and did some other electrical hacks. There are hacks on top of hacks and I’m uncertain how to re-install the switch (which I want to do to make safe for a future owner).

As far as I can tell, I THINK the switch sits between one pair of the white-red and black-yellow wires coming from the transformer and going to J102-2 (W-R) and J102-9 (Blk-Y) on the power driver board.

There’s a second set of white-red / black-yellow wires that I THINK run directly from the transformer to J102-4 and J102-6, respectively, without passing thru the interlock switch.

Again, there have been numerous hacks/repairs to this machine and I’m not certain about my assumptions above. If any one can confirm them or correct them, I'd be extremely grateful.

#2 1 year ago

<redacted - mistakenly thought Whirlwind was sys 11 like Earthshaker>

#3 1 year ago

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/help-road-show-interlock-amp-memory-protect-switches#post-7534738

This isn't a specific Road Show problem. Any machine with an interlock switch will be wired the same way.

Honestly, if you just took the time to post an image of what you have, you will get a solution to your problem much faster.

I don't understand why people who post in this forum always ask for someone else to post an image and they won't post an image themselves. How can you ask someone else to do MORE work than you're willing to do to help you solve your problem?!?!?!?!

wpc_interlock_wiring_diagram.jpgwpc_interlock_wiring_diagram.jpg

Quoted from WalrusPin:

Is this what you are looking for?

That's System 11. Completely incorrect for this machine. This machine is a WPC-S machine.

#4 1 year ago

thanks, but those are pix of the service switch. The power interlock switch is the larger of the two white switches installed in a bracket on the left-hand side of the coin door. When you open the door it depresses the switch. I found the pic below online ... my bracket and switches are missing from my machine.

interlock2 (resized).jpeginterlock2 (resized).jpeg
#5 1 year ago
Quoted from jaybird5619:

thanks, but those are pix of the service switch. The power interlock switch is the larger of the two white switches installed in a bracket on the left-hand side of the coin door. When you open the door it depresses the switch. I found the pic below online ... my bracket and switches are missing from my machine.

Those services switches are THREE BUTTON. That's System 11. You have a FOUR BUTTON. That's WPC. System 11 is NOT relevant to WPC.

I might be a DumbAss but I think you need to post images of the WIRING not the switch. I know what switches are what and I know what is supposed to connect where. I just need to see what you have in your machine. Everything you've written suggests that you do NOT have an interlock tap.

I want to help you but you have to help me to help you.

Original post quoted:

Some machines were either manufactured without the interlock cabling (I have no proof of this other than the cabling is missing) or the cabling was removed by an operator (again, I have no proof because none of this stuff was documented).

Post some images of the transformer and the wiring / cables around it. There should be a "tap" in the transformer secondary bundle. The tap should have the WHT-RED and BLK-YEL wires coming off it to the coin door interlock switch.

#6 1 year ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

Those services switches are THREE BUTTON. That's System 11. You have a FOUR BUTTON. That's WPC. System 11 is NOT relevant to WPC.

He was replying to the same person you did - showing the wrong switches. Don't need to be so harsh there.

Quoted from DumbAss:

Some machines were either manufactured without the interlock cabling (I have no proof of this other than the cabling is missing) or the cabling was removed by an operator (again, I have no proof because none of this stuff was documented).

Starting mid-run of Twilight Zone, all WPC games had an interlock switch. So, yes, his machine should have had them. And he's saying they're gone completely. And yeah, as an ex-operator... we got rid of them. It's a jumper cable, with two inline molex plugs. Unplug both ends of the jumper harness, and connect the other two back up - voila, instant hot +50v and +20v when door is open.

Quoted from jaybird5619:

I found the pic below online

That pic is what you need, and DumbAss posted the schematics - which are also available in PDF online. (NOT in your game's manual, but in the WPC Schematics PDF. This was a separate released manual for WPC/WPC-95 games, yeah.)

Since you don't say exactly what you want (are you trying to just get the game running? Or are you wanting to faithfully restore how it came from the factory?) you can create your own harness, buy switches and mount them all up, or connect the transformer secondary molex to the cabinet molex plug, and have a working game.

#7 1 year ago
Quoted from Coyote:

Don't need to be so harsh there.

You're right. I'm just frustrated when I posted TWO WEEKS ago providing help that was just ignored. Then another thread with EXACTLY THE SAME REQUEST is posted after ignoring the help. This seems to happen to me a lot. Maybe I should just stop helping people. Hmmm. That's a good idea. I'll take my own advice.

#8 1 year ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

I'm just frustrated when I...

I know that frustration and you've helped a hell of a lot more folks than I have here.

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#9 1 year ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

You're right. I'm just frustrated when I posted TWO WEEKS ago providing help that was just ignored. Then another thread with EXACTLY THE SAME REQUEST is posted after ignoring the help. This seems to happen to me a lot. Maybe I should just stop helping people. Hmmm. That's a good idea. I'll take my own advice.

Oh, not disagreeing in the least. Especially when info and help WAS given in the other thread, and he never seemed to reply.

#10 1 year ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

You're right. I'm just frustrated when I posted TWO WEEKS ago providing help that was just ignored. Then another thread with EXACTLY THE SAME REQUEST is posted after ignoring the help. This seems to happen to me a lot.

You do tech support, you'll see a lot more.

Quoted from DumbAss:

Maybe I should just stop helping people.

Please don't. The ones that need your help and heed it, will be grateful. As will I and many others.

Quoted from DumbAss:

I might be a DumbAss

You aren't. And people recognize your posting name and read your posts.

Some days you just need a sense of humor about some of this. Especially if it's a new person trying to help, no matter how wrong the help is. Correct them and hope they continue to help and learn to help better.

A couple weeks ago your help was ignored ? Hell I had more than that before breakfast or coffee this noon. And it runs in streaks. Next time it will be something different. They ignore, they know better than you, why is it smoking now.

Tech support isn't a job. It's an adventure. That is why we make the big bucks.

Incidentally your boards. Any chance for plaid or paisley or a nice tie dye look ? I'm tired of red or green.

See, you feel better already.
LTG : )

#11 1 year ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

You're right. I'm just frustrated when I posted TWO WEEKS ago providing help that was just ignored. Then another thread with EXACTLY THE SAME REQUEST is posted after ignoring the help. This seems to happen to me a lot. Maybe I should just stop helping people. Hmmm. That's a good idea. I'll take my own advice.

Unrelated to road show but a big thank you to you, and everyone else that offers help on pinside.
I know that my son and I couldn’t have gotten our garage unit finds Kings of Steel or Playboy back working again without help from people like you on these forums.
Please know that help from more seasoned pinball restorers like you is so very very appreciated. Ie. Please don’t stop helping.
(We had been looking at a road show hence I checked this forum). Have a good night.

#12 1 year ago

Thanks to everyone for weighing in ...

First, apologies to @DumbAss. You've helped me before and I appreciate it. I never sent any additional photos in response to your reply to my original post because, honestly, I didn't know what to take photos of. There is no interlock switch (as shown in the photo in my original post), and I didn't think there was anything useful around the transformer to show -- but, my bad, I should have followed up and I'll know better next time.

So .....moving on...

Looking at the schematic DA provided (and pls forgive me, I'm a small-time hobbyist and a rank amateur when it comes to wiring schematics), am I correct in interpreting it as follows:

1. White-Red from transformer tap 4 goes to COM1 on interlock switch
2. White-Red from NO1 on interlock switch goes to J102-1&2
3. Black-Yellow from transformer tap 10 goes to COM2 on interlock switch
3. Black-Yellow from NO2 on interlock switch goes to J102-5&6

Also, someone asked why I was installing the switch. It's partly to return the machine to original as possible, but mostly to make it safer for my kids/grandkids who will likely inherit it.

Again, thanks for everyone's help.

#13 1 year ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/help-road-show-interlock-amp-memory-protect-switches#post-7534738
This isn't a specific Road Show problem. Any machine with an interlock switch will be wired the same way.
Honestly, if you just took the time to post an image of what you have, you will get a solution to your problem much faster.
I don't understand why people who post in this forum always ask for someone else to post an image and they won't post an image themselves. How can you ask someone else to do MORE work than you're willing to do to help you solve your problem?!?!?!?!
[quoted image]

That's System 11. Completely incorrect for this machine. This machine is a WPC-S machine.

Apologies - redacted my response

#14 1 year ago
Quoted from jaybird5619:

I never sent any additional photos in response to your reply to my original post because, honestly, I didn't know what to take photos of. There is no interlock switch (as shown in the photo in my original post), and I didn't think there was anything useful around the transformer to show

It's ok to not know and ask for clarification. It's also ok to challenge with the question "why?".

If you're still stuck then, humor me and post images of the inside of the cabinet. Near the transformer and the wiring along the left side of the cabinet. There should be a few connectors near the transformer secondaries. Those are of interest to me as well.

Quoted from jaybird5619:

(and pls forgive me, I'm a small-time hobbyist and a rank amateur when it comes to wiring schematics), am I correct in interpreting it as follows:
1. White-Red from transformer tap 4 goes to COM1 on interlock switch
2. White-Red from NO1 on interlock switch goes to J102-1&2
3. Black-Yellow from transformer tap 10 goes to COM2 on interlock switch
3. Black-Yellow from NO2 on interlock switch goes to J102-5&6

Not quite. The interlock is a "tap". It operates like a "man in the middle attack". It taps one line of the AC transformer secondary for the 20VAC and 50VAC. It routes each of those to the coin door interlock switch and back to the other side of the tap. If you show me an image, I can use my magic highlighting pen on it. It's much easier to show you than describe it.

As to the wiring above with the interlock switch, it actually doesn't matter if you connect one end to the NO or COM. As long as you don't connect to NC. I once saw a (interestingly Road Show) machine where someone had re-connected the wires to the NC at the interlock switch. The person asking me to look at his machine said that the shaker worked in test but didn't work in the game. Took me a while to locate where the problem was. It's not intuitive because almost nobody messes with the interlock switch.

Quoted from jaybird5619:

Also, someone asked why I was installing the switch. It's partly to return the machine to original as possible, but mostly to make it safer for my kids/grandkids who will likely inherit it.

If you don't have the wiring harness for the "man in the middle" then you will have to create the harness. This is why I want to see the images. So I can tell you if it's there and where to connect it. It's easy to disconnect the "man in the middle". You simply pull each side of the connectors and re-connect the others back. It removes the "man in the middle". After that, it's also easy to discard the cable. Why bother discarding after you've disconnected and rendered it inert? That's why it might still be there.

#15 1 year ago

Your intuition was dead on. In the back of the cabinet I discovered 3'-4' pieces of wire spliced into one the two white-red wires and one of the two black-yellow wires coming from the transformer. Further, both of these wires have two splices within them. I'm assuming that the splice nearest the middle of the wires (blue wire nuts) is where they, at some point, connected to the interlock switch. I've tried to capture this in the attached photos. I pulled the loops up onto the playfield so you can see them better. Let me know if you need anything more specific.

I can't tell which taps of the transformer these wires come from...there's just not enough space without removing the playfield.

So, 2 questions:
1) is it simply a matter of inserting the switch back into these loops?
2). There is a 2nd set of white-red and black-yellow wired coming from the transformer. They do not go to the switch but directly to power driver board, correct? That's how I read the wiring diagram, but I'm not certain.

Many thanks.

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#16 1 year ago
Quoted from jaybird5619:

Your intuition was dead on. In the back of the cabinet I discovered 3'-4' pieces of wire spliced into one the two white-red wires and one of the two black-yellow wires coming from the transformer. Further, both of these wires have two splices within them. I'm assuming that the splice nearest the middle of the wires (blue wire nuts) is where they, at some point, connected to the interlock switch. I've tried to capture this in the attached photos. I pulled the loops up onto the playfield so you can see them better. Let me know if you need anything more specific.

I hope you can now see why I asked for the images. I didn't ask for them to waste your time.

What you have there is NOT factory. The factory did not cut the wires and did not use Butt connectors (splices). Somebody else in machine's history did that. The factory would have used an additional cable connected between the two connectors you have there. Some more details below.

Quoted from jaybird5619:

I can't tell which taps of the transformer these wires come from...there's just not enough space without removing the playfield.

The taps are for the 20VAC (WHT-RED) and 50VAC (BLK-YEL). The cuts are made on the transformer side as you can see.

Quoted from jaybird5619:

So, 2 questions:
1) is it simply a matter of inserting the switch back into these loops?
2). There is a 2nd set of white-red and black-yellow wired coming from the transformer. They do not go to the switch but directly to power driver board, correct?

Here is the wiring diagram with different markings. If you are color blind in some way let me know and I will avoid using colors.

xfmr_wiring_diagram.jpgxfmr_wiring_diagram.jpg

Here is how the wiring diagram matches what you have physically in the machine.

xfmr_connector.jpgxfmr_connector.jpg

  • The yellow connector and bundle of wires goes to the cabinet (up to the board at J101/J102/J112).
  • The red connector and bundle of wires comes from the transformer (secondary).
  • To restore this to factory, you would disconnect the yellow and red connector and create a "man in the middle" with the tap. This would be a new cable with mating connectors as shown in green and blue in the wiring diagram. You don't have this. Either the factory did not install it, or someone in the machine's history removed it.
  • The attempt to install a tap can be seen with the cut wires and the Butt connector. The wires have been cut at the green and blue arrow in the wiring diagram. This has been done on the transformer side but it actually doesn't matter which side as it could have been done on the cabinet side.
  • The wire nuts in the other image are simply just connecting the additional wire together. There were probably quick connector tabs to insert into a DPDT interlock switch. These are the four wires that you have pulled up to the top of the playfield. If you trace them back you should be able to correlate the wires to the wiring diagram. Keep the WHT-RED and BLK-YEL wires together - i.e. insert them as matching into each pole of the interlock switch. It doesn't matter NO or COM. Just don't use NC.

If that's unclear then I will try to explain it differently.

#17 1 year ago

Your explanation is very clear, thanks. One last question ... do you know if the wires involved are 16 or 18 gauge? Even with a magnifying glass I cannot be sure. It looks like the wire that has been spliced in actually lamp cord (which may be fine). In general, is there some way to determine gauge by looking manual or wiring diagram?

#18 1 year ago
Quoted from jaybird5619:

do you know if the wires involved are 16 or 18 gauge?

The wires coming off the transformer (primary and secondary) look to be 18 AWG. I think there are two primary gauges used in the machine. 18 AWG is the larger and 22 AWG is the smaller. If you look at the wires connected to J101, J102 and J112 (transformer secondaries) they are 18 AWG. If you look at the wires connected to J133-135 and J136-J138 (lamp matrix) they are all 22 AWG.

Quoted from jaybird5619:

In general, is there some way to determine gauge by looking manual or wiring diagram?

Unfortunately, not that I can see. The gauge can often be deduced from the purpose (what the wiring is used for) but there is no rule or pattern. Williams even changed some of their manufacturing during the WPC era. The early WPC-89 machines (I think prior to WPC-S) have solenoid drive wires that are 22 AWG. The later WPC-89 machines (I think WPC-S) and WPC-95 machines have solenoid drive wires that are 18 AWG.

#19 1 year ago

Thanks...appreciate all your help.

#20 1 year ago

A nice image of the cable was just added by another helpful member.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/sttng-owners-club/page/181#post-7570315

You can see the "tap" cable.

  • Follow the secondaries to a housing.
  • That housing mates to another housing that is part of the tap.
  • You can see the BLK-YEL and WHT-RED wires looped and coming in/out of the tap.
  • The other side of the tap has a housing.
  • That housing mates to another housing (labeled "Electronics").
  • The wires then go up to the backbox electronics.

Operators have disconnected the tap housings and just mated the secondary housing to the cabinet housing. They (probably) subsequently discarded the tap cable.

#21 1 year ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

You can see the "tap" cable.

Thanks for the nice comment DumbAss As soon as I posted that I was thinking I should have labeled the interlock jumper cable with the +20V and +50V wires to the interlock.

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