(Topic ID: 294091)

River Boat not starting

By Kickout

2 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 11 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by baldtwit
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#1 2 years ago

I’m working on a 1964 Williams River Boat. Cleaned all switches, steppers all working smoothly. Go to start a game, push left flipper button game lights up, game has credits. Push start button nothing! Manually activate coin re, reset relay activates, score reels reset to zero, but game still does not play.

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#2 2 years ago
Quoted from Kickout:

Push start button nothing!

If the Replay button doesn't activate the Replay relay, Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features
Example of a pinsider actually doing this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/red-baron-tech-question#post-5858156
Be careful because this circuit runs on 120 volts

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#3 2 years ago

HowardR
Here is a pic of the lock re, after the left flipper button is pushed. The second switch from the right is Green/Red from the lock re to the 0 at zero RP SU. This switch is open when the lock relay is active. The schematic shows it closed. I checked that circuit by holding that switch closed and that circuit worked fine. Am I misreading the schematic?
Kickout

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#4 2 years ago

It's because you can fire up the game (and the lock relay) with the left flipper; or by pressing the replay button switch.

After that, it must go through the Game Relay.

#5 2 years ago
Quoted from Kickout:

The schematic shows it closed. I checked that circuit by holding that switch closed and that circuit worked fine. Am I misreading the schematic?

Remember, the schematic always shows the switch positions with the machine unplugged (after game reset), so the Lock (or Hold) Relay switches are going to be in the opposite position that is shown in the schematic when you have the game powered up. It's a bit confusing until you get used to that fact. True for all EMs.

#6 2 years ago

Sudsy7 - Thanks I understand that now.

HowardR - I checked that circuit it it good. Here are a few things i noticed:
1. when the left flipper button is push the lights come on, and the center target begins to move back and forth. Not sure this should be happening. Circuit for this is located at G8
2. the Game Over light is not lit.
3. if i trip the Game Over Re. the motor continues to run, will not stop until i latch the Game Over Re. Circuit for this is also at G8.
Am i looking in right direction?

#7 2 years ago
Quoted from Kickout:

Sudsy7 - Thanks I understand that now.
1. when the left flipper button is push the lights come on, and the center target begins to move back and forth. Not sure this should be happening. Circuit for this is located at G8

look around schem C1 ... what howard posted above. When you close the left flipper button switch, the transformer is powered. That causes the lock relay to power and stay powered forever (unless someone opens a "knock-off sw"). Then back to the 120V circuits and you'll see a couple lock relay switches in series that will keep the power on the transformer.

the rest of the switches in that area mean you can also wake the game up depositing coins or pushing the replay button if you have credits.

Quoted from Kickout:

2. the Game Over light is not lit.

per schem B5, the game over light comes on when both the game over relay AND the tilt relay are tripped. Note when both are tripped, the tilt light is not turned on.

the tilt trip is interesting. When you first wake up the game with the lock relay unpowered, the tilt relay should trip, but it's a race condition whether that happens before the lock relay powers and opens the switch that is completing the circuit.

it should work because the coil operating the tilt is different (construction/physically/part number) from the one operating the lock relay ... the tilt one works faster so power can be applied to both coils at the same time and tilt trips reliably.

Quoted from Kickout:

3. if i trip the Game Over Re. the motor continues to run, will not stop until i latch the Game Over Re. Circuit for this is also at G8.
Am i looking in right direction?

the score motor is at schem G-3. When the game over relay is tripped but the tilt relay isn't, the score motor runs.

the non-obvious thing in all this is when the game is over, the tilt relay should trip. The player doesn't know that because the tilt light doesn't turn on. If something isn't working or you manually trip some relays, you can put the game in a state which it shouldn't be in and the behavior won't make sense.

the game relay (different from the game over relay) trips when the 1 or 10 point relays power (player has shot a ball), and that enables the replay button once the lock relay has powered. The game relay also trips when the game over relay trips and a score motor switch closes briefly.

so IF you wake up the game with the left flipper button but for whatever reason the game relay hasn't tripped, the replay button will not work. If that's the state you are in, see if the tilt relay has tripped.

this has been a long-winded ramble of what the folks above have said

#8 2 years ago

baldtwit,

Quoted from baldtwit:

ook around schem C1 ... what howard posted above. When you close the left flipper button switch, the transformer is powered. That causes the lock relay to power and stay powered forever (unless someone opens a "knock-off sw"). Then back to the 120V circuits and you'll see a couple lock relay switches in series that will keep the power on the transformer.
the rest of the switches in that area mean you can also wake the game up depositing coins or pushing the replay button if you have credits.

Understand That

Quoted from baldtwit:

per schem B5, the game over light comes on when both the game over relay AND the tilt relay are tripped. Note when both are tripped, the tilt light is not turned on.

Ok that checks out

Quoted from baldtwit:

so IF you wake up the game with the left flipper button but for whatever reason the game relay hasn't tripped, the replay button will not work. If that's the state you are in, see if the tilt relay has tripped.

OK, this is what is happening. the Game Re. at G8 is not tripping. So if I understand you I need to find out why the Game Relay is not tripping after the left flipper button is pushed.

#9 2 years ago

the sequence is:

1] push left flipper button
2] tilt relay should trip and slightly after the lock relay powers and stays powered
3] if the game over relay is untripped or unpowered, then the game relay will trip.

I called the game over relay a trip relay in previous post. I don't have the manual so don't know if that's right.

If the game over relay is a trip relay, it should not be possible for the game relay to be untripped and the game over relay to be tripped. If that somehow happens, the replay button won't work and you need to reset the game with a coin.

if the game over relay is a regular relay, it won't be powered if the tilt trip relay is tripped and the game relay should trip.

to repeat dr_nybble ... if you wake up the game with the flipper button, the game relay must trip or already be tripped for the replay button to work.

williams is trying to be nice to the drunks. If you reset the game via replay button or coin but haven't shot a ball, pushing the replay button won't reset the game again and use up a credit.

it just gets a little more complicated because the replay button must work if someone turns the game off/on before shooting the first ball or before the game is over.

so yes, the game relay not tripping is a problem. Question is ... is the tilt relay tripping? If not, that's the real problem. If the tilt relay is tripping, what kind of relay is the game over relay and what state is it in?

#10 2 years ago

baldtwit
the tilt relay is not tripping at start up. I'll be looking at that circuit today. Thanks

#11 2 years ago

the race is on!

assuming the tilt relay coil is good (pendulum trips the relay), then you need the tilt relay to trip before the lock relay armature moves enough to open the switch.

adjust the lock relay switch with the yellow and yellow/red wires so the contacts stay touching as long as possible, but the switch is open when the lock relay armature is on the coil top.

it's also possible your lock relay coil is partially shorted so it's operating too quickly. You'd need to replace the coil. It should have a resistance around 15 ohms (make sure to open the knock-off switch when measuring in circuit or unsolder one of the coil wires).

the x-27-500 tilt coil is probably around 4.5 ohms, so it pulls a lot more current and operates the armature faster. I'll try and find those two coils and get the resistance info to john at https://www.flippers.com/coil-resistance.html

if your lock relay coil is toast, an alternative is disconnect it and permanently open the above lock relay switch to the tilt coil, permanently close the other 3 switches and install a power switch on the cabinet bottom. The game will wake up when turned on without needing to hit the flipper button.

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