(Topic ID: 240472)

RIP Kickback


By RGR

14 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 60 posts
  • 40 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 days ago by Hawk007
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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    #1 14 days ago

    Is it me or is this another cost cutting measure? SW, Maiden and now BKSOR have what is effectively a ball save which changes the game play to that of a kickback. Will we see kickbacks again? I doubt it.

    #2 14 days ago
    Quoted from RGR:

    Is it me or is this another cost cutting measure? SW, Maiden and now BKSOR have what is effectively a ball save which changes the game play to that of a kickback. Will we see kickbacks again? I doubt it.

    Star trek had that too. Now that I think of it, Aerosmith, GOT, they all have for a few years now.

    #3 14 days ago

    So its over then?

    #4 14 days ago

    The hobbit has one - but does not work 100% of the time like this method does.

    #5 14 days ago

    The real question is when are historical aspects of pinball actually going to be improved upon.

    Like pop bumpers. They are great for randomly moving the ball around but why not actually incorporate them in to the rules of the game to be significant, regarding scoring (Funhouse and circuit voltaire)? They are "photocopied random pinball movers" and in ALMOST every game they are used, and they do not improve a game in any way beyond adding randomness.

    Another thing that has always irritated the shit out of me is that MADE lock shots are worthless. Lock a ball, get zero points. In Transformers, lock 3 balls, get zero points. I understand the potential for scoring in eventually earning multi-ball but why not at least award 500K-1mil. for a successfully lit shot that in a ton of cases, is extremely dangerous?

    The skill shot has evolved very slowly over time but I think Elwin has shown us the way regarding that pinball feature, expanding the rules of it in much the same way multi-ball rules have been stretched with add-a-balls and "earned revivals".

    I can go on about other annoying things that make the current state of pinball monotonous and drab but I will leave it alone for now. The truly genius engineering seems few and far between amongst pinball designers these days. It does not help that these days, premium features are something that the consumer pays thousands of extra $ for in the form of a premium or LE product. So sad.

    #6 14 days ago
    Quoted from snyper2099:

    The real question is when are historical aspects of pinball actually going to be improved upon.
    Like pop bumpers. They are great for randomly moving the ball around but why not actually incorporate them in to the rules of the game to be significant, regarding scoring (Funhouse and circuit voltaire)? They are "photocopied random pinball movers" and in ALMOST every game they are used, and they do not improve a game in any way beyond adding randomness.
    Another thing that has always irritated the shit out of me is that MADE lock shots are worthless. Lock a ball, get zero points. In Transformers, lock 3 balls, get zero points. I understand the potential for scoring in eventually earning multi-ball but why not at least award 500K-1mil. for a successfully lit shot that in a ton of cases, is extremely dangerous?
    The skill shot has evolved very slowly over time but I think Elwin has shown us the way regarding that pinball feature, expanding the rules of it in much the same way multi-ball rules have been stretched with add-a-balls and "earned revivals".
    I can go on about other annoying things that make the current state of pinball monotonous and drab but I will leave it alone for now. The truly genius engineering seems few and far between amongst pinball designers these days. It does not help that these days, premium features are something that the consumer pays thousands of extra $ for in the form of a premium or LE product. So sad.

    So guess I am going full JJ Fan Tilt - several modes in the Hobbit are tied to the Pop Bumpers, and they do little for randomness the ball comes out about the same each time, The hobbit has different skill shots and you can select them, Aerosmith has a hidden Skill Shot and you can get a Missile when you get it.

    -3
    #7 14 days ago

    I literally got rid of my GOTG because I could not stand that thing that shoots the ball too damned fast .. I disliked it on the GOT game as well.

    #8 14 days ago

    Pops used to be used much more purposefully. Just look at the Beatles - you need to nudge the ball in the pops to help knock down drops and hit standups. Now they do seem just dropped in perfunctorily without much reason.

    #9 14 days ago
    Quoted from coz6:

    So guess I am going full JJ Fan Tilt - several modes in the Hobbit are tied to the Pop Bumpers, and they do little for randomness the ball comes out about the same each time, The hobbit has different skill shots and you can select them, Aerosmith has a hidden Skill Shot and you can get a Missile when you get it.

    I did not make the statement because no games have moved in a better direction, I made it because there is no reason they should not all be doing exactly the same.

    #10 14 days ago

    The most recent game with a kickback I can think of is Dialed In.

    #11 14 days ago

    Good riddance to work it has to be quick to be quick it has to be hard that only increases the chance of the shit happens rule taking effect

    #12 14 days ago

    Star trek prem and LE has a physical kickback

    #13 14 days ago
    Quoted from snyper2099:

    The real question is when are historical aspects of pinball actually going to be improved upon.
    Like pop bumpers. They are great for randomly moving the ball around but why not actually incorporate them in to the rules of the game to be significant, regarding scoring (Funhouse and circuit voltaire)? They are "photocopied random pinball movers" and in ALMOST every game they are used, and they do not improve a game in any way beyond adding randomness.
    Another thing that has always irritated the shit out of me is that MADE lock shots are worthless. Lock a ball, get zero points. In Transformers, lock 3 balls, get zero points. I understand the potential for scoring in eventually earning multi-ball but why not at least award 500K-1mil. for a successfully lit shot that in a ton of cases, is extremely dangerous?
    The skill shot has evolved very slowly over time but I think Elwin has shown us the way regarding that pinball feature, expanding the rules of it in much the same way multi-ball rules have been stretched with add-a-balls and "earned revivals".
    I can go on about other annoying things that make the current state of pinball monotonous and drab but I will leave it alone for now. The truly genius engineering seems few and far between amongst pinball designers these days. It does not help that these days, premium features are something that the consumer pays thousands of extra $ for in the form of a premium or LE product. So sad.

    MM/MMR the pops hits count towards Super Jets 1,000,000 points. If you need to score pops hits on those machines, shoot for the orbits.

    #14 14 days ago
    Quoted from Ronnie1114:

    Star trek prem and LE has a physical kickback

    This has been the trend. I believe all/most of the premium and LE versions have physical kickbacks and the pro versions have virtual kickback to save on cost.

    #15 14 days ago
    Quoted from Pahuffman:

    This has been the trend. I believe all/most of the premium and LE versions have physical kickbacks and the pro versions have virtual kickback to save on cost.

    Not lately...

    #16 14 days ago

    Two things...

    1) I'm not entirely opposed to virtual kickbacks, especially on Pro models. I sort of like how it safely shoots the ball back into play, especially on shooter lanes that go to the rear orbit.

    2) Kickbacks typically involve having a curved rail over the outlane to direct the ball back into play. This would require new games to consider this requirement and can partly change or limit playfield geometries and inlane/outlane setups. Not a big issue, but something to consider.

    #17 14 days ago
    Quoted from KozMckPinball:

    MM/MMR the pops hits count towards Super Jets 1,000,000 points. If you need to score pops hits on those machines, shoot for the orbits.

    You never need to do that though. 1 mil isn't worth thinking about on that game.

    Quoted from Pahuffman:

    This has been the trend. I believe all/most of the premium and LE versions have physical kickbacks and the pro versions have virtual kickback to save on cost.

    Premium Star Wars has the gate too. But BKSOR has virtual kickback on all models

    #18 14 days ago

    I think it is pretty safe to assume, if certain manufacturers could pull it off, pinball would consist of a drain, two flippers and a bunch of rubber posts on laminate wood with a sticker for 7k.

    Unfortunately, I would be willing to bet that 30 years from now people will look back at these current machines and consider them "full featured" compared to the evolution of price cutting that will be accepted as the norm.

    We should get a list of cost cutting moves that have been implemented already. It would be entertaining.

    #19 13 days ago
    Quoted from zacaj:

    You never need to do that though. 1 mil isn't worth thinking about on that game.

    Right, and that was in the 90’s. Not relevant points and not relevant to currently designed machines.

    #20 13 days ago

    I think the pop bumpers in Stern SW are implemented well. If you can nudge and keep the ball in there, you get increased scoring or bonuses or activate things. Also, while you can't see which upper lane the ball will hit when going up, you have to pay attention in order to hit flipper for the way down so as to get as many lit as possible in order to increase scoring multipliers (and maybe more, the game is new to me).

    Also LOTR bumpers play into game also. You have to get some number of pops in order to get Boromir to join the fellowship. Also, same issue as SW - you use pop bumpers to get ORC lanes lit as much as possible for scoring multiples.

    And as notes, Beatles pop bumpers collect members and knock down 1964 drops. Also, there is a mode that has increased scoring for pop bumpers, and it pays to keep the ball in the upper playfield.

    To the OP, I've played pinball on and off for a long time and understand kickbacks are cool. But in the past year that I've become a more serious player (or at least a member of the hobby), It doesn't matter to me if the save is a kickback or ball save that comes out of the plunger. Game play is just different for that model, not "changed" (IMHO).

    #21 13 days ago

    Yea, this irritated me years ago but I’m over it. Take the money saved on the bom and add it to code. If that’s what it took to get me those nice rgb inserts on black knight pro, then it was worth it.

    #22 13 days ago

    I like a kickback as much as anyone. But, kickbacks don't always work all the time, and sometimes you get wonky results out of them even when they do work.
    One time I had a ball drain to the kickback, the kickback fired it back up it hit a post or something directly and went straight back down to the kickback again... Now, the time was still running so it got kicked out again, and it then hit the same spot and went straight back down. Only this time no more grace period.
    I've also had the kickback fail to register and be unreliable. And that is frustrating when you have a pin and you can't rely on it.

    I think its okay to try something new. As again we don't want every game to have a kickback. Just like I would say all these outlane ball saves will get old once every game starts to use them. But, remember the wire gates that some games had that would bring it back to the shooter lane. Those were fairly popular. I think styles evolve and change. And no doubt they will change again. I do think a few games in the future will have them, but yes mostly going forward it appears that trend is mostly abandoned.

    As for pops. I disagree with you mostly, but I think you have merit to your argument, that they should be utilized more.
    Iron Maiden you need to hit pops to get cyborg multiball(and also potentially an extra ball) and once in cyborg mb you need to hit them once to qualify for the jackpot shot.

    Theater of Magic you need to hit the pops in the straight jacket escape to complete the mode.

    Attack from Mars and MM you need to hit pops to get super pops... Granted that's just more points... But, who doesn't like points.
    Monster Bash you need to hit the pops to dig out the mummy and qualify for that mode. You need the mummy mode to qualify for Monster bash wizard mode and of course monster of rock wizard mode.

    I think Jurassic Park has a mode electric fence where you want to hit the pops to climb faster to get off the fence... I could be mistaken...

    But, as a whole. I agree with what you say. It be nice if they had a little more focus around them. But, also as one poster mentioned above. The older games its useful to get them to score the rollovers. Which in some games can lead to big points.

    #23 12 days ago
    Quoted from westofrome:

    Pops used to be used much more purposefully. Just look at the Beatles - you need to nudge the ball in the pops to help knock down drops and hit standups. Now they do seem just dropped in perfunctorily without much reason.

    Well, the pops in Beatles are used pretty much the same way and located pretty much in the same place as they were used and located in Seawitch 3 decades ago, so not sure Beatles is a good choice to prove the point regarding use of pops being more purposeful in the past.

    #24 12 days ago

    CFTBL the pops get you super jackpot, after jackpot.

    #25 8 days ago

    Not so. Elvira has new surprises and more ... Stay Tuned !

    #26 8 days ago
    Quoted from snyper2099:

    The skill shot has evolved very slowly over time but I think Elwin has shown us the way regarding that pinball feature, expanding the rules of it in much the same way multi-ball rules have been stretched with add-a-balls and "earned revivals".

    Lawlor > Elwin on skill shots. Dialed In has progressive skill shots that increase in value if you can chain them without missing. Skill shot made, then if you hit the next target immediately you get a super skill shot. Better than super skill shots alone or super secret skill shots alone. EVERYONE should be adopting the chained skill shot approach, it makes that whole start of ball skillful and very rewarding if you can do it.

    #27 8 days ago

    Another valid reason for physical kickbacks to die in most cases...

    It's the most likely coil to lock on and you'll NEVER NOTICE it's burning up, because who the heck spends all their time looking at that corner? I've seen the stupid things melt down and fry transistors and the owners never even noticed it.

    #28 8 days ago
    Quoted from vireland:

    Lawlor > Elwin on skill shots. Dialed In has progressive skill shots that increase in value if you can chain them without missing. Skill shot made, then if you hit the next target immediately you get a super skill shot. Better than super skill shots alone or super secret skill shots alone. EVERYONE should be adopting the chained skill shot approach, it makes that whole start of ball skillful and very rewarding if you can do it.

    Neat. I didn't know that. Not that I've had anywhere to play Dialed In for the last year and a half or so, but a cool idea. I'd much rather see this than "plunge the outlane 3 times to win in a tournament."

    #29 8 days ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    Neat. I didn't know that. Not that I've had anywhere to play Dialed In for the last year and a half or so, but a cool idea. I'd much rather see this than "plunge the outlane 3 times to win in a tournament."

    Plus that plunge the outlane ssss is a BAD habit. I've gotten very good at it, but also ended up throwing away balls on DIFFERENT games because I absent mindedly launched the ball like it was Iron Maiden, when it wasn't.

    Progressive skill shots with increasing values are the bomb. They should have chains up to 4 or even 5. Can you imagine the points and sense of accomplishment if you can hit that chain in a row? Awesome.

    #30 8 days ago

    This is the way I see it.. the way a kickback lane is designed, it is virtually impossible to save a ball going there. So it is a brutal outlane with ball save when lit..in the form of a kickback. I would rather have a conventional outlane with ball-save, like iron-maiden, because you have a chance to shake it out of the area and not use the ball-save.

    #31 8 days ago

    What was th first game to have a lightable outlane ball save instead of a kickback? NBAFB has one, but there must be others well before that. I don’t miss a physical kickback on NBAFB at all. However, I love how the kickback in RNB is tied to advancing your Bonus or straight up points.

    #32 8 days ago

    Buy the premium or LE to get the real kickback.

    I kind of like the Star Wars use of a gate on the right hand side instead of a left hand kick back. Nice change and similar to some old EMs.

    #33 8 days ago

    Scared Stiff removed the physical kickback as well back in the day (the hole is still there for it), so it seems like that type of cutback has been done for some time now.

    #34 8 days ago
    Quoted from RGR:

    Is it me or is this another cost cutting measure? SW, Maiden and now BKSOR have what is effectively a ball save which changes the game play to that of a kickback. Will we see kickbacks again? I doubt it.

    Good riddance. Just another thing I have to make a messy ruling on in a tournament. Haha

    #35 8 days ago
    Quoted from Manny10:

    literally got rid of my GOTG because I could not stand that thing that shoots the ball too damned fast.

    That is called a kicker. This discussion is about kickbacks. Two different devices.

    #36 8 days ago
    Quoted from Reality_Studio:

    Scared Stiff removed the physical kickback as well back in the day (the hole is still there for it), so it seems like that type of cutback has been done for some time now.

    I think they did it due to the lack of playfield area for the ball return if the game did have a kickback. Wonkas return is fantastic. You dont get penalized for a SDTM situation due to you not being able to flip the ball.

    #37 8 days ago

    As for pop bumpers having no improvement or meaning these days...many stern games have them integrated into the DMD to have a matching award once all 3 award columns macth up. Then you have a target switch in Ghostbusters that is pretty much only actuated by bouncing off the pop bumpers, like Seawitch and Beatles. I do really like the idea of having to shoot through pop bumpers to access a ramp, like Iron Maiden and Aerosmith.

    #38 8 days ago
    Quoted from Reality_Studio:

    Scared Stiff removed the physical kickback as well back in the day (the hole is still there for it), so it seems like that type of cutback has been done for some time now.

    Same with JY so the pin-heads who are bitching as this is just some Stern cost cut they will always find a reason to be miserable

    #39 8 days ago

    In the wild back in the day I only played games with a kickback. Gives you a chance to save your ball and game. And can be re achieved and gives you something to attain along with other goals to keep your game alive. I for one LOVE kickbacks. And they should be in games.

    Virtual stuff sucks. Physical real actions are the best. There should be more in games now not less. Especially with the price of NIB!

    The randomness of it kicking out helps with game play as well.

    And when they are set up right they work flawlessly just like any other mech the switch needs to be adjusted right. And especially in this case or a slow ball will never get kicked back out.
    Put all the mechanical stuff back in our games. Half the fun and draw is watching the ball fly around the playfield. The ball is wild after all.

    Long live the kickback, spinners,and actual physical ball locks and real full banks of drop targets! Not big single target crap. lol

    #40 8 days ago

    Why are people up in arms all of a sudden as if this is a new thing?

    #41 8 days ago
    Quoted from Hawk007:

    In the wild back in the day I only played games with a kickback. Gives you a chance to save your ball and game. And can be re achieved and gives you something to attain along with other goals to keep your game alive. I for one LOVE kickbacks. And they should be in games.
    Virtual stuff sucks. Physical real actions are the best. There should be more in games now not less. Especially with the price of NIB!
    The randomness of it kicking out helps with game play as well.
    And when they are set up right they work flawlessly just like any other mech the switch needs to be adjusted right. And especially in this case or a slow ball will never get kicked back out.
    Put all the mechanical stuff back in our games. Half the fun and draw is watching the ball fly around the playfield. The ball is wild after all.
    Long live the kickback, spinners,and actual physical ball locks and real full banks of drop targets! Not big single target crap. lol

    The ball does still get kicked out when now with the auto plunger, I know it is slightly different, but it really isn't that far off the mark.

    #42 8 days ago
    Quoted from thirdedition:

    The ball does still get kicked out when now with the auto plunger, I know it is slightly different, but it really isn't that far off the mark.

    Not the same effect. It drains and BAM right back in play. Not drain and auto plunge back into the game. Looses something.

    And not anything new here. Always disliked the removal of anything that was or should be in the game. Kickbacks are kickbacks and auto plunge is auto plunge..
    Apples to oranges in my opinion. Keep kickbacks in the game. pinball is physical not virtual!

    #43 8 days ago
    Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

    Why are people up in arms all of a sudden as if this is a new thing?

    Not a new thing. but squeaky wheel gets the grease so to speak. If no one says anything they will assume we are all ok with it thats all.

    For the money they cost, they should put more in the games not less.

    #44 8 days ago
    Quoted from Hawk007:

    For the money they cost, they should put more in the games not less.

    For me, the more money they cost, they should be more reliable. Not have more in it.

    #45 8 days ago

    I don't have any problem with the "virtual kickback" approach however I will say that there has always been something fun and special when playing a game with a true kickback. Something about the fact that its THE SAME ball being physically rescued and shot back into play is exciting and fun! Having the ball drain and another one launch from the shooter lane completely and momentarily stalls gameplay and shatters any notion of it being the "same ball". many inexperienced players probably don't even realize that its the same ball in play. If it were an option I would always prefer a true outlane kickback.

    #46 8 days ago

    Agreed chuck. But I include reliability in the 'more in the games' comment. lol Hard to beat W/B there too. The new stuff scares me.

    The old board sets were rock solid unlike nowadays. Sigh. Time to find the wayback machine..

    #47 8 days ago
    Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

    Why are people up in arms all of a sudden as if this is a new thing?

    People wanted to bitch about the BK

    #48 8 days ago
    Quoted from Dkjimbo:

    I don't have any problem with the "virtual kickback" approach however I will say that there has always been something fun and special when playing a game with a true kickback. Something about the fact that its THE SAME ball being physically rescued and shot back into play is exciting and fun! Having the ball drain and another one launch from the shooter lane completely and momentarily stalls gameplay and shatters any notion of it being the "same ball". many inexperienced players probably don't even realize that its the same ball in play. If it were an option I would always prefer a true outlane kickback.

    Yuuuup. Thats what I'm talking about. Real effects happening in front of your eyes. REAL pinball.

    #49 8 days ago

    I had a physical kickback on my TBL and it was kinda cool, mainly due to the tie in to the trampoline scene in the movie, more than the ball bouncing back into play in any special kind of way. Frankly, I'm just fine with using software to take care of it and auto launching another ball instead. One less thing to fail or get skipped over occasionally.

    Now, I generally do prefer physical ball locks over virtual, but it's not a factor in my buying a game or not. My BM66 has a physical ball lock, IM doesn't have a ball lock of any kind that I can think of, and my MMR and AFMR ball locks are virtual. Still, I love all of those games pretty much equally.

    #50 8 days ago

    Software solution = Cheap !
    Hardware = Expensive, baaad !!

    Remember this story ? On GoT is a designfailure. The diverter unit on the top of the outer loop was mounted in the lane. So it is impossible without a hack to shoot a full loop. But on some missions a loop was needet to succeed this mission. Stern heard avbout that and ..... no .. does not provide a hardware hack or a technical advisment. The ychanged thje software. Hitting the first rollover in the outer loop was (and stil is) counted as a full loop. Mode is playable ... stupid customers are happy !

    So you see .. software is cheap ....

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