(Topic ID: 313876)

Right flipper gets stuck in the up position - WPC-089

By wbkwbk

2 years ago


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  • 21 posts
  • 12 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by eyeamred2u
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#1 2 years ago

Judge Dredd: The right flipper occasionally gets stuck in the up (pressed) position. Sometimes only very short, sometimes longer. What I have already ensured:

1. it's not a mechanical problem. If the flipper hangs up and I switch off the flipper, then the flipper comes down again.
2. it is not a problem on the power driver board. For testing I used a brand new one from Rotten Dog and the problem remains exactly the same.

In the test T.9. All Lamp Test, the right flipper is also triggered in the blinking cycle of the lamps. That means lamps on, flipper is triggered as if the right flipper button was pressed. Lamps off, flipper goes back to home position.

Thanks for any hints where the problem could be.

Attached is a video of the test: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1oI_LkLClSgUKkVKly2gmCLJOFz6jy6kI?usp=sharing

Many thanks
Martin

#2 2 years ago

Because it's triggered by the amp test I suggest you have a short in the wiring somewhere?

#3 2 years ago

Check your flipper buttons, sometimes they get gummed ups and even though you release it, it can stay engaged a bit

#4 2 years ago

Are you sure it’s not a mechanical problem? Are you able to replicate the hanging button in switch edge test? Dredd uses optos so it’s not able to be from sticky leaf switches. When I got my Dredd, it had an issue with the lower left flipper where it would hang, sometimes briefly, sometimes longer. The plunger was so worn it actuated to the point of the EOS getting hung up on the nub that engages the EOS. Any type of vibration was enough to release it. Yes, even turning off the power button.

#5 2 years ago

This may or may not help. But this was my somewhat similar issue yesterday.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/shadow-flipper-sticking-on#post-6888876

#6 2 years ago
Quoted from wbkwbk:

In the test T.9. All Lamp Test, the right flipper is also triggered in the blinking cycle of the lamps. That means lamps on, flipper is triggered as if the right flipper button was pressed. Lamps off, flipper goes back to home position.

It sounds like your flipper circuit ground is shorted to the lamp matrix. Try running the single lamp tests and see if one or more of them activate the flipper. That may tell you which circuit to check for a short.

#7 2 years ago

@all thank you for your hints
- the flipper button is perfectly clean and does not get stuck
- the flipper mechanic is fine, also the plunger, EOS is activated correctly

I checked all the mechanical parts, in my opinion its not a mechanical problem

#8 2 years ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

It sounds like your flipper circuit ground is shorted to the lamp matrix. Try running the single lamp tests and see if one or more of them activate the flipper. That may tell you which circuit to check for a short.

Thank you, very good idea. I performed the test. Unfortunately a single lamp does not trigger this behaviour, only in the all lamp test, the richt flipper is triggered/activated as well. Still the same: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1oI_LkLClSgUKkVKly2gmCLJOFz6jy6kI?usp=sharing
So it must be some kind of electrical problem. The question is now where and how to find it.

#9 2 years ago

Could you have some kind of issue where the fliptronic board is reading data meant for the driver board? Ribbon cables?

The WPC system uses D0 for low right high power and D1 for low right hold. See if single lamp test on D0 and D1 lamps make it flip.

I would look towards the fliptronic. CA0, CA1, CA2, CA3, CA4, WDEN and R/W go the decoder chip on the fliptronic board that decodes out when it the fliptronic board should read the data bus. Gently flex on the ribbon cable during lamp test. If one of the address pins to the decoder floats (no pullups) you might get a situation where other noise from say lamps switching can drive the input.

Untitled (resized).pngUntitled (resized).png
#10 2 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

Could you have some kind of issue where the fliptronic board is reading data meant for the driver board? Ribbon cables?
The WPC system uses D0 for low right high power and D1 for low right hold. See if single lamp test on D0 and D1 lamps make it flip.
I would look towards the fliptronic. CA2, CA3, CA4, WDEN and R/W go the decoder chip on the fliptronic board that decodes out when it the fliptronic board should read the data bus. Gently flex on the ribbon cable during lamp test. If one of the address pins to the decoder floats (no pullups) you might get a situation where other noise from say lamps switching can drive the input.

You beat me to to jump on this post. Failing decoder chip.

#11 2 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

If one of the add

Quoted from barakandl:

Could you have some kind of issue where the fliptronic board is reading data meant for the driver board? Ribbon cables?
The WPC system uses D0 for low right high power and D1 for low right hold. See if single lamp test on D0 and D1 lamps make it flip.
I would look towards the fliptronic. CA0, CA1, CA2, CA3, CA4, WDEN and R/W go the decoder chip on the fliptronic board that decodes out when it the fliptronic board should read the data bus. Gently flex on the ribbon cable during lamp test. If one of the address pins to the decoder floats (no pullups) you might get a situation where other noise from say lamps switching can drive the input.[quoted image]

Thank you for the tip.
I will
1. Check Ribbon cables
2. Take my fliptronic II from Addams Family and Test it in Judge Dredd

#12 2 years ago

Solved. the problem is actually stray light. If I cover the optical sensor in such a way that no more light scatters in, then the incorrect behaviour is gone.
Many thanks at all for your support and ideas how to solve the problem, that was very encouraging

#13 2 years ago

Yup, that's a weird one!

When that game came out, it was right around the time they had black plastic flipper interrupts at the flipper buttons. The black plastic was made of a plastic that was too flexible, and actually melted/bent when it got hot in the cabinet.

The fix was to make these black plastic interrupts out of a different material, so for a while they were made out of white plastic, and if you ran across a machine with the black ones, you were supposed to replace them with the white ones.

BUT...

The same thing you found! Reflected light would cause the flipper to activate without the flipper button pressed. So they immediately started replacing them with black... but a different kind of non-melting black plastic.

Makes me wonder if your machine has white plastic interrupts. If so the part to replace the white ones with is this:

https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/03-9001

Good catch on the troubleshooting here!

#14 2 years ago
Quoted from PinRetail:

Yup, that's a weird one!
When that game came out, it was right around the time they had black plastic flipper interrupts at the flipper buttons. The black plastic was made of a plastic that was too flexible, and actually melted/bent when it got hot in the cabinet.
The fix was to make these black plastic interrupts out of a different material, so for a while they were made out of white plastic, and if you ran across a machine with the black ones, you were supposed to replace them with the white ones.
BUT...
The same thing you found! Reflected light would cause the flipper to activate without the flipper button pressed. So they immediately started replacing them with black... but a different kind of non-melting black plastic.
Makes me wonder if your machine has white plastic interrupts. If so the part to replace the white ones with is this:
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/03-9001
Good catch on the troubleshooting here!

Thank you very much, yes indeed, very strange, no mine has black plastic. For some unknown reason surrounding lights triggers the flipper incorrectly. I will construct a small box around it as a workaround

#15 2 years ago

I've just noticed the interrupter plastic of Opto2 (right flipper) is much smaller then the one of opto1 ...

OptoInteruoptor (resized).jpgOptoInteruoptor (resized).jpg
#16 2 years ago
Quoted from wbkwbk:

I've just noticed the interrupter plastic of Opto2 (right flipper) is much smaller then the one of opto1 ...
[quoted image]

My lower one is the same way. I believe because the bottom tab does not swing out as far as the top due to the arc of travel.

#17 2 years ago

also if you replace them stay away from the white plastic ones , the light passes thru them and does not interupt the light as good as the black ones

#18 2 years ago

Looks like an aftermarket PCB?

#19 2 years ago
Quoted from epeabs:

My lower one is the same way. I believe because the bottom tab does not swing out as far as the top due to the arc of travel.

I think that is by design so the flippers do not activate at the same time. Push the flipper button slowly and see what I mean.

#20 2 years ago
Quoted from LORDDREK:

I think that is by design so the flippers do not activate at the same time. Push the flipper button slowly and see what I mean.

I believe you are correct.

#21 2 years ago
Quoted from luch:

also if you replace them stay away from the white plastic ones , the light passes thru them and does not interupt the light as good as the black ones

In a pinch, if the black ones aren't available, you can always paint the white ones black so light will not pass through. This is a temporary fix, but will work.

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