(Topic ID: 173382)

Rick and PPS Making Fraudulent Claims - FYI

By RetroRefurbs

7 years ago


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    There are 776 posts in this topic. You are on page 5 of 16.
    #201 7 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    That seems easy enough to get around. Stock one item priced at $1,000,000 and you can maintain the copyright indefinitely.

    Sure....but then we are right back to the bootleggers. I also wouldn't call having one item "maintaining production". But I guess some of those niggling details would have to be worked out.

    #202 7 years ago

    I'm no expert, but from my experience that's how trademark law works - at least here in Australia. As a trademark owner, you're fine just sitting on it until someone challenges it (ie. they want to use the same trademark). Then the original owner has to prove they are using it in a meaningful way otherwise they can lose it. It's designed to prevent Trademark hoarding.

    #203 7 years ago

    I would love to have experts pipe in. My personal example is Taf parts. PPS websites have 1/10th parts in stock or forsale compared to Marcos or Australian spare parts care to explain? You would think we could do a one shop all for bally/Wms on Ricks sites but we see better pricing and instock products with his competitors. Im not bashing PPS as I am a huge fan and very thankful for all Rick and his employees do for our hobby. However im a common sense guy and this makes none.

    #204 7 years ago
    Quoted from PopBumperPete:

    Don't see how
    Wayne was willing to grant licences so that others could make reproduction parts
    Gene just sat on his rights

    Wayne was also one of the few people who openly refused to be servile to the incompetent leadership of AA, unlike a lot of other fellow Victorians who basically sold themselves out because they are openly spineless.

    That fact alone makes him someone who can be counted on as reliable and not only willing to stand by their principles but unwilling to be bribed or threatened into silence.

    Not to mention the fact he was able to get proper licensed IJ decals (with copyright text) with the direct approval of George Lucas which made a pleasant change from all the inkjet junk that was out there at the time.

    Quoted from cooked71:

    Is PPS's lawyer, Mr Tim Fraelich, tfraelich (the new user with one post) really going to post on a public forum addressing a job he is currently working on? I can't see the logic.

    Not the kind of language used by any lawyer I've had correspondence from.
    It does read a bit like a Pps post. Where's kpg ?

    Then you need to be able to learn to differentiate between formal legal correspondence originating from a solicitor (attorney to use the US vernacular) whilst they are on the clock and informal obiter made on an internet forum in the form of a passing statement made to give informal notice of intent before the formalities begin.

    Quoted from cooked71:

    I'm no expert, but from my experience that's how trademark law works - at least here in Australia. As a trademark owner, you're fine just sitting on it until someone challenges it (ie. they want to use the same trademark). Then the original owner has to prove they are using it in a meaningful way otherwise they can lose it. It's designed to prevent Trademark hoarding.

    Trademarks have an automatic expiry date of 10 years from the filing date in Australia unless a renewal fee is paid for an extension.

    #205 7 years ago
    Quoted from pinsanity:

    Wayne was also one of the few people who can be counted on as reliable and not only willing to stand by their principles but unwilling to be bribed or threatened into silence.
    Not to mention the fact he was able to get proper licensed IJ decals (with copyright text) with the direct approval of George Lucas which made a pleasant change from all the inkjet junk that was out there at the time.

    Wayne also deserves huge credit for being the major force behind resolving the massive MESS that was "The WOZ Fiasco". I take my hat off to him for this alone.

    #206 7 years ago
    Quoted from pinsanity:

    you need to.....learn to differentiate between......correspondence originating from a solicitor (attorney..) whilst they are on the clock

    As opposed to a solicitor that works off the clock? Again, not the sort of solicitor I've ever had experience with.

    Quoted from pinsanity:

    made to give informal notice of intent before the formalities begin.

    I don't think there are any formalalities beginning in this case. One party is a very small restorer working in the U.K. and the other is in the US. Unless said solicitor is willing to work "off the clock" for the entire process, I doubt it's worth PPS or Williams pursuing this.

    It's all bluff.

    IMO of course.

    -1
    #207 7 years ago

    (Sing to the CHEERS theme)
    "You want to be where you can see,
    Our troubles are all the same;
    PPS wants to be where everybody always knows...their name."

    cheers-opn4 (resized).pngcheers-opn4 (resized).png

    A little bit of significant levity is needed at this point.

    Personally, I hope the circumstances get sorted out, I don't want another repeat of history or another third party taking down their sales shingle regarding reproduction parts, we already had two+ decades of these situations.

    Long live screen printed over digital graphic printing, as applied to side art transfers and other types of artwork such as backglasses and plastics.
    If an enthusiast does not understand the difference as applied to this industry, do a little research, it makes a huge difference in quality and is worth your time reading for parts reproduction standards.
    The same thing goes for areas such as hot stamping versus vinyl decals for thumper bumper caps, aprons (where applicable as this varies based on manufacturer and era), and other simpler parts.

    #208 7 years ago
    Quoted from Homepin:

    Wayne also deserves huge credit for being the major force behind resolving the massive MESS that was "The WOZ Fiasco". I take my hat off to him for this alone.

    And his "reward" for putting up his own time and money in achieving resolution was to be publicly criticised and questioned by the AA hierarchy for his motives. Just leave it to the Arcade King though, he'll fix up the missing deposit money with his extensive knowledge of trust accounts and Mareva injunctions. He's a fixer.

    Nice mangling of my quote to try and change the context by the way.

    Quoted from cooked71:

    As opposed to a solicitor that works off the clock? Again, not the sort of solicitor I've ever had experience with.

    I don't think there are any formalalities beginning in this case. One party is a very small restorer working in the U.K. and the other is in the US. Unless said solicitor is willing to work "off the clock" for the entire process, I doubt it's worth PPS or Williams pursuing this.
    It's all bluff.
    IMO of course.

    It's called pro bono and all do it.

    An open response on an internet forum costs nothing and giving his identity in the post was made to reinforce the point and informal notice being made.

    Everything from this point on will involve a financial burden to both sides. It all depends on who values the outcome more and who has the deeper pockets. The outcome though will be a foregone conclusion based on the prima facie evidence itself even without initiating civil action. One is a mom and pop webfront based on the other side of the pond and one is an official licensee with the defacto backing of a US corporate.

    A cease and desist costs a few hundred to draft and send by certified mail par avion with signature. That is nearly always the end of the matter in my experience.

    #209 7 years ago

    Why thank you good Sir !

    pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

    #210 7 years ago

    Look guys there is always people who don't like control

    Having a license to drive
    Illegal to take drugs
    Steal
    Pay tax
    Etc

    Bally Williams rights are controlled, you can object, jump up and down etc, like trump and Clinton

    Everyone objects to something they don't like,

    #211 7 years ago
    Quoted from ultimategameroom:

    Bally Pinball do you still retain the rights to make MM parts? It's been many years so would it be incorrect to assume that your project of reproducing MM machines or even the production of "original"parts by you has been shuttered for good?

    #213 7 years ago

    thanks for the link wire doug. I never saw the other topic. No need to change my post tho.

    #214 7 years ago
    Quoted from ultimategameroom:

    thanks for the link wire doug. I never saw the other topic. No need to change my post tho.

    yes there was. your post was just a quote.. you cant quote a quote or the result is blank.. had to fill it with something

    #215 7 years ago

    Can someone please enlighten me....

    PPS sells non-original parts (with huge profits), like this:
    http://www.planetarypinball.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=PP&Screen=PROD&Category_Code=GS-782&Product_Code=PPS-23-6639

    Here's an ebay link for the same product:
    ebay.com link: 12 x FINGER PUPPETS FRIGHT MONSTER TOY PARTY BAG XMAS CHRISTMAS STOCKING FILLERS

    So.... how does licensing works here?

    #216 7 years ago
    Quoted from AlexSMendes:

    Can someone please enlighten me....
    PPS sells non-original parts (with huge profits), like this:
    http://www.planetarypinball.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=PP&Screen=PROD&Category_Code=GS-782&Product_Code=PPS-23-6639
    Here's an ebay link for the same product:
    ebay.com link » 12 X Finger Puppets Fright Monster Toy Party Bag Xmas Christmas Stocking Fillers
    So.... how does licensing works here?

    If you buy them and resell them then copyright is not an issue. It's like you going to the store buying a PS4 and then reselling the PS4 for more profit.

    #217 7 years ago
    Quoted from flashinstinct:

    If you buy them and resell them then copyright is not an issue. It's like you going to the store buying a PS4 and then reselling the PS4 for more profit.

    Thanks!

    -8
    #218 7 years ago

    Long story short, don't buy from patent or copyright trolls. I just black listed PPS, no more of my money for you!

    23
    #219 7 years ago
    Quoted from Yoski:

    Long story short, don't buy from patent or copyright trolls. I just black listed PPS, no more of my money for you!

    this is absurd. they are not a copyright troll. PPS clearly and obviously currently owns the rights to much of the stuff RetroRefurbs is making and selling. i'm completely baffled by all the people taking the thief's side in this. it seems Rick has made a lot of personal enemies over the years but that's no reason to be unethical hypocrites. have some integrity.

    -10
    #220 7 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    this is absurd. they are not a copyright troll. PPS clearly and obviously owns the rights to much of the stuff RetroRefurbs is making and selling. i'm completely baffled by all the people taking the thief's side in this. it seems Rick has made a lot of personal enemies over the years but that's no reason to be unethical hypocrites. have some integrity.

    Williams/Bally went out of business about 20 years ago. Still some money grabber is trying to profit from it, that a troll in my book. I am taking my business elsewhere, thank you very much.

    #221 7 years ago
    Quoted from Yoski:

    Williams/Bally went out of business about 20 years ago. Still some money grabber is trying to profit from it, that a troll in my book. I am taking my business elsewhere, thank you very much.

    A copyright or patent troll makes money by suing people. That is obviosuly not the case here. PPS actually produces products and licenses copyrighted material to others to produce products.

    15
    #222 7 years ago
    Quoted from Yoski:

    Williams/Bally went out of business about 20 years ago.

    They didn't go out of business. They stopped producing pinball machines but are still in business. They still own the rights to their intellectual property. Rick is the person that paid for the ability to enforce and collect royalties for those rights, and give them their cut. That's not a troll, that's business. I understand that Rick may not be Mr. Popularity due to his persona on the forums, but he isn't trolling in the way you are describing things.

    #223 7 years ago

    Unfortunately, if a person wishes to cross out PPS, they will need to cross out BAA, Marco, Pinball Life, and a host of other parts suppliers around the world that are provided parts direct from PPS. The overall list of suppliers is not as big as many people may think. It is a very small niche industry.

    BAA is a subsidiary, BTW...
    Just trying to provide a tale of caution for those that may not be aware.

    Anyone calling PPS a license troll is inaccurate as this simply not true.
    Has the company (or people) upset others?
    Most definately, yes.
    The realities are some collectors have solved problems by other means, when other options simply did not exist.
    This will continue until the market growth of owners supports equal to the requirement of the parts market (including restorers, brokers, dealers), which I have no idea if it will ever happen.

    #224 7 years ago

    You guys keep jumping up and down trying to make scence of all this copyright stuff when all you have to do is change some colors or add/subtract something and it is no longer copyright/trademark issue. It happens all the time with paintings.
    And your still not putting into the equation that someone outside the U.S.A. is not subject to it's laws. Look up and research it yourself.
    I don't know what to make of all this but it's way out of any pinsiders control.
    Mike

    #225 7 years ago

    Just to be clear, I'm not against Rick or PPS, au-contraire... but I really don't dig the way he handles this s***.

    #226 7 years ago

    So, how many have purchased cabinet decals over the weekend?

    #227 7 years ago

    By the logic (or mob mentality) of some people in this thread - I should be able to come steal your expensive and rare prototype pinball game right out of your basement just because it is rare and the rights holder isn't reproducing it right now. If you object to me stealing it I shall look you in the eye and say "you haven't played with it in 2 years despite promising in a prior post you would start playing it!"

    IP rights are property. Just because it is easy and "seems" harmless to make copies of something doesn't make it morally right.

    The BEST defense some of the people supporting the infringer seems to be to argue who actually owns the rights. I argue that is irrelevant. If the person making the decal doesn't own the rights they are in the wrong.

    I can respect someone who copies a CD or DVD and admits it's wrong. I can't respect someone who tries to pretend in their twisted head it is okay or they somehow deserve to do it... which is much of what I see in this post.

    #228 7 years ago

    Last thing I'll say - I'm amazed by how many "experts" on here spout off Trademark law, copyright law and patent law "facts" but don't realize they are muddling these "facts" together. IP law is so specialized that real actual lawyers have to get special qualifications in America to practice it (specifically patent law). It's the only area of law I know with this requirement. So it is funny how all the internet lawyers have mastered this legal field with Google.

    #229 7 years ago
    Quoted from brainmegaphone:

    IP law is so specialized that real actual lawyers have to get special qualifications in America to practice it

    You said it right there "In America"
    Mike

    #230 7 years ago

    Lawyer trivia.... Over 70% of the world's lawyers practice in the United States.

    #231 7 years ago

    (Edited content). It'd be amazing to see copyright brought down to 5 years instead of 1 millions years like disney would want.

    #232 7 years ago
    Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

    Long live screen printed over digital graphic printing, as applied to side art transfers and other types of artwork such as backglasses and plastics.
    If an enthusiast does not understand the difference as applied to this industry, do a little research, it makes a huge difference in quality and is worth your time reading for parts reproduction standards.
    The same thing goes for areas such as hot stamping versus vinyl decals for thumper bumper caps, aprons (where applicable as this varies based on manufacturer and era), and other simpler parts.

    You know, I appreciate the help you have been giving me, but considering what I collect now, I disagree. Screen printing is superior. Yes, there are better ways to make parts, but end of the day I will take inferior parts over no parts.

    Purists want everything 100 percent original. Screw it, I just want it to play as it should and look as good as I can make it. If I can buy originals I will. If I have to use a different companies parts with modifications, I will. On a low run game no one is going to silk screen decals, there is no money in it. If digital printing is the only realistic option then going to take it.

    #233 7 years ago
    Quoted from Litedpinballmods:

    I will say this about Rick, I have talked to him a few times on projects I am working on. I was always able to get in contact with him on the phone and on email. He was helpful on pointing me in directions. Rick is to the point, which is fine with me, saves time. He is financial motivated, which I also don't have a problem with, he spent the money to get what he has, so he is protecting his investment, again, I don't have a problem with that.
    I don't understand if Rick is not making something, and the guy in England or the Guy at Phoenix arcades decals is making something why the don't work together, pay Rick his cut and everyone would be happy. I do feel a licensed product is worth a bit more and will help cover Rick's end.

    agreed, I think the biggest thing is that many people here do not understand the massive undertaking it can be to even reproduce something that seems straight-forward. add to this that rick is not working with the same size staffing that bally and williams had back in the day.

    I also know that rick has films for many of the screened parts (e.g. what CPR used for the addam's family playfield screening). I was fortunate enough to complete the joust plastics project before he found the films for those and I think that the hobby was a bit better for it (in my opinion) since the artist (jim smith) and I worked together to correct and make improvements on least 5 areas of the originals

    I believe that I had less than 5 phone calls (and maybe 10 or so emails) with rick, and most were pretty short and to the point. in the end, our project was approved, rick received a portion of the run to cover the royalty cost and most importantly, a good number of joust owners were able to replace worn, broken, melted and otherwise damaged playfield plastics

    16
    #234 7 years ago

    *ding ding* ROUND 4...

    Quoted from PPS:

    I guess we are all just wondering what rights you have to make and reproduce items with the Bally(tm) and Williams(tm) trademarks on them.
    Just answer the simple question.

    Hello Rick.

    Funny that, I didn't see any items on our Facebook page with the Bally(tm) or Williams(tm) trademarks on them. Did you? I have evidence here that you believe yourself to be the rights owner of Data East, Sega, Stern, Capcom and Gottlieb ones instead.

    I've never said anywhere that Retro Refurbs actually makes or reproduces anything. That's your assumption.

    As I pointed out in my 2nd post, my understanding is that you have don't have the rights. If you do have the correct rights then you must submit proof to us of what you have rights to and be specific about which pieces they are, and remembering that most artwork consists of 5 pieces. Otherwise anything that comes out of your mouth is just hearsay.

    Once this is done I'll be more than happy to discuss an amicable solution that suits everybody. I'll offer my apologies to anyone I've wronged, and even buy them a round of beers!

    Until the above is resolved, Retro Refurbs will be standing it's ground.

    BACK TO THE POINT - we are talking here about our Facebook page and images of artwork found on Data East, Sega, Stern, Capcom and Gottlieb games. My original post did not contain any complaint for the rights of B/W.

    Rick, if you continue to derail this topic with that of your own agenda and cannot contribute to the matter at hand in a useful way without embarrassing yourself any further, then I will be asking the Pinside moderators to either restrict your posting in this topic, or lock it altogether and end the discussion.

    I'm still waiting for your explanations.

    Pete
    Retro Refurbs

    -12
    #235 7 years ago
    Quoted from RetroRefurbs:

    I've never said anywhere that Retro Refurbs actually makes or reproduces anything. That's your assumption.

    what a cowardly position, to pretend that you're not reproducing B/W parts. if you ACTUALLY want to work something out with PPS (which it seems obvious you don't) then at least be honest about what you're doing.

    #236 7 years ago

    The facebook page includes a link to the website- http://www.retrorefurbs.com/shop-cat/pinball-cabinet-decals/bally-williams/

    But I don't see where it says retro refurbs is the one actually reproducing these.

    #237 7 years ago
    Quoted from RetroRefurbs:

    Until the above is resolved, Retro Refurbs will be standing it's ground.

    6b47e1b1a5193820f2ab00cd14842c6834087441 (resized).jpg6b47e1b1a5193820f2ab00cd14842c6834087441 (resized).jpg

    15
    #238 7 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    what a cowardly position, to pretend that you're not reproducing B/W parts.

    actually it is the only right position to take. Seems obvious at this point that some people are sick of Rick sending C&D letters without proving what he claims to own. I see nothing wrong with saying "come after me and prove what you own" "then we can talk"

    #239 7 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    The facebook page includes a link to the website- http://www.retrorefurbs.com/shop-cat/pinball-cabinet-decals/bally-williams/
    But I don't see where it says retro refurbs is the one actually reproducing these.

    Maybe if he buys them and resell them then copyright is not an issue. It's like you going to the store buying a PS4 and then reselling the PS4 for more profit.

    #240 7 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    actually it is the only right position to take. Seems obvious at this point that some people are sick of Rick sending C&D letters without proving what he claims to own. I see nothing wrong with saying "come after me and prove what you own" "then we can talk"

    I am guessing the fact that the OP is in England may make it even less likely PPS follow through with anything beyond threats/C&Ds.

    #241 7 years ago
    Quoted from dung:

    You know, I appreciate the help you have been giving me, but considering what I collect now, I disagree. Screen printing is superior. Yes, there are better ways to make parts, but end of the day I will take inferior parts over no parts.
    Purists want everything 100 percent original. Screw it, I just want it to play as it should and look as good as I can make it. If I can buy originals I will. If I have to use a different companies parts with modifications, I will. On a low run game no one is going to silk screen decals, there is no money in it. If digital printing is the only realistic option then going to take it.

    And.... if you change some colors or other stuff, you can always sell (or call) as a mod or customization!

    #242 7 years ago

    Just post some product requests on Alibaba.com, say you want to pay 250€ for some printed stickers, 120€ for some clear plastic ramps and they flood the market...

    #243 7 years ago

    I can't believe that real companies are having this sort of interaction on a public hobby forum.

    #244 7 years ago
    Quoted from AlexSMendes:

    And.... if you change some colors or other stuff, you can always sell (or call) as a mod or customization!

    Not quite. Minor alterations do not automatically make it qualify as "fair use" or a derivative work.

    The new work has to be unique and original enough to be considered a completely new piece of artwork that can stand on its own in order to no longer be subject to the original work's copyright protections.

    For example, changing a character's hair color would not be a big enough creative change since it does nothing to change the overall concept of the artwork.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work#Originality_requirement

    #245 7 years ago
    Quoted from DCFAN:

    I am guessing the fact that the OP is in England may make it even less likely PPS follow through with anything beyond threats/C&Ds.

    It didn't stop them from going after pinball rescue in Australia.

    Quality apron decals- RIP.

    #246 7 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    It didn't stop them from going after pinball rescue in Australia.
    Quality apron decals- RIP.

    pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

    #247 7 years ago
    Quoted from brainmegaphone:

    By the logic (or mob mentality) of some people in this thread - I should be able to come steal your expensive and rare prototype pinball game right out of your basement just because it is rare and the rights holder isn't reproducing it right now. If you object to me stealing it I shall look you in the eye and say "you haven't played with it in 2 years despite promising in a prior post you would start playing it!"

    that's metallica napster logic

    #248 7 years ago
    Quoted from Grizlyrig:

    You said it right there "In America"
    Mike

    Fair enough - but keep in mind if you reach out sell and do business in America or with its citizens you can potentially be held accountable to its laws. In any event my point was that people are taking trademark law properties and mixing in patent properties and lumping them all together with copyright laws. None are interchangeable... but they often overlap. It is complex.

    What isn't complex (I was taught this at a young age) is that taking something that isn't yours is wrong. I'm not saying that is what the OP is doing - but many people in this thread seem to be approving of doing something like this under certain circumstances and that is where I personally took issue.

    This reminds me of when Metallica was called out for enforcing their rights. Many people made them out to be the devil. I bet those same people would be pissed if their boss refused to pay them for a day's work.

    #249 7 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    It didn't stop them from going after pinball rescue in Australia.
    Quality apron decals- RIP.

    Did they actually go to court? Where was the venue if they did?

    #250 7 years ago
    Quoted from toyotaboy:

    that's metallica napster logic
    » YouTube video

    yeah, and one of those two things was sued out of existence.

    There are 776 posts in this topic. You are on page 5 of 16.

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