Rick and PPS Making Fraudulent Claims - FYI

(Topic ID: 173382)

Rick and PPS Making Fraudulent Claims - FYI


By RetroRefurbs

2 years ago



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  • Latest reply 1 year ago by Chuck_Sherman
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    There are 776 posts in this topic. You are on page 16 of 16.
    #751 1 year ago
    Quoted from Skypilot:

    Let see, in the last year .....TAF, TAFG, Dr Dude, Scared Stiff, WCS. Those are just the titles I personally know that PPS has had made. Not scanned but silk screened. Care to venture the cost to run a set of licensed, accurate cabinet art? BTW they don't al cart that stuff. Each title ships on a pallet.

    Even if he owns the rights, Rick doesn't have all the films. That was the case with WCS. I spent endless hours creating them from scans to make them as accurate as possible. While he did do a few color readjustments, he pretty much took what I had done since the films did not exist. While I had done this for my personal game and my restore, I hadn't envision selling them. I had sent the files to a few large format printers for quotes. However they got into the hands of a printer that does all the silkscreening for Rick. Since he knew he was looking for a good WCS print they got made without my knowledge. Long story short, Rick and I made a mutual agreement that benefited both of us and everyone can enjoy the WCS decals.

    Some people portray Rick as a douchebag, but I can understand where he is coming from. If we all fronted $$$$ to own the rights we would pursue people that infringe upon these rights. From my dealings with him, he speaks business, we agreed to terms and both parties followed suit. I'm sure he deals with bullshit on a daily basis so some people should cut him a bit of slack. Is he always on the right side, perhaps not, but without him you guys would be stuck with BS parts made from who knows who.

    With that said, it would be nice if Rick outsourced some of the stuff that he can't get to so people could enjoy new silkscreen decals that are not available. There would be a lot less RetroRefurbs if he took that avenue.

    #752 1 year ago
    Quoted from flashinstinct:

    Even if he owns the rights, Rick doesn't have all the films. That was the case with WCS. I spent endless hours creating them from scans to make them as accurate as possible. While he did do a few color readjustments, he pretty much took what I had done since the films did not exist. While I had done this for my personal game and my restore, I hadn't envision selling them. I had sent the files to a few large format printers for quotes. However they got into the hands of a printer that does all the silkscreening for Rick. Since he knew he was looking for a good WCS print they got made without my knowledge. Long story short, Rick and I made a mutual agreement that benefited both of us and everyone can enjoy the WCS decals.
    .

    Wait... what? So rick was printing bootleg WCS decals? So he is a fan of bootlegs!

    #753 1 year ago
    Quoted from lordloss:

    Wait... what? So rick was printing bootleg WCS decals? So he is a fan of bootlegs!

    That's not what happened. But to make sure this doesn't go any further down the speculation rabbit hole. The guy that does silkscreening for Rick asked the other person if he had paid for the designer to redo them and was told yes, therefore the work had been paid for. Rick couldn't have known that someone down the line was trying to make a quick buck. I talked to Rick and explained the situation. We both understood what had transpired. He was pissed that someone had lied to him, I was pissed because my hard work got taken advantage of by someone other that Rick or his staff. In the end, we talked about it, reached an agreement. Water under the bridge. Done and done. Case closed.

    #754 1 year ago

    How about those POS Twisted Pins White Water toppers he approved, sold, took his cut and then disappeared when people asked for refunds?

    #755 1 year ago
    Quoted from Taxman:

    How about those POS Twisted Pins White Water toppers he approved, sold, took his cut and then disappeared when people asked for refunds?

    Not aware of everything he's done, just spoke in regards to WCS decals. Did he own twisted pins?

    #756 1 year ago
    Quoted from mainelycoasters:

    I love how hard they go about the Copyright issue but dont actually sell or have anyone licensed to sell decals to redo cabs. I would have no issue paying for legally licensed decals if they were availiable. Most of the middle to high end games owners would be happy to redo....if the decals are available.

    Consider that he may be contractually obligated to enforce his rights under his license agreement... for a variety of legal reasons. The law is complicated and this thread is full of people who don’t know it (or the contract Rick has or may not have).

    For what it is worth I’m not taking sides - I am just always surprised at the mob mentality of the internet in general... we can’t pretend to know why he operates his business a certain way but it is his right to do so.

    I have space in my house I’m not using. I may never use it. I sure as hell don’t want anyone else to come in and use it though. That’s my right as long as I own my house. Some people on this forum would seem to propose that if I don’t show them the deed they have the right to come use my space. That just isn’t the case.

    #757 1 year ago
    Quoted from Taxman:

    How about those POS Twisted Pins White Water toppers he approved, sold, took his cut and then disappeared when people asked for refunds?

    I forgot about that...damn its hard to keep up with pinball over the years

    #758 1 year ago
    Quoted from flashinstinct:

    Not aware of everything he's done, just spoke in regards to WCS decals. Did he own twisted pins?

    No, Twisted made a WH2O topper with the cascading foil effect that looked like crap. But the got the go ahead from PPS and sold them as if they looked good. So PPS approval and cut. But when they turned out to be crap they wanted nothing to do with refunds.

    Just like the poorly printed MMr playfield inserts people don't seem to learn. Things are great most of the time. But when you are on the short end you have to make noise or you're ignored. A lot of cases of this stuff going to come crashing down one day.

    #759 1 year ago
    Quoted from cosmokramer:

    I forgot about that...damn its hard to keep up with pinball over the years

    Some of us old elephants have long memories.

    #760 1 year ago
    Quoted from Taxman:

    No, Twisted made a WH2O topper with the cascading foil effect that looked like crap. But the got the go ahead from PPS and sold them as if they looked good. So PPS approval and cut. But when they turned out to be crap they wanted nothing to do with refunds.
    Just like the poorly printed MMr playfield inserts people don't seem to learn. Things are great most of the time. But when you are on the short end you have to make noise or you're ignored. A lot of cases of this stuff going to come crashing down one day.

    That's where I laugh when it's said one of the reasons to enforce the copyright against bootlegs is to maintain the quality. A legitimate point in isolation but when you look at that WH2O topper as an example there was zero care factor about the quality. One would simply draw the conclusion that PPS were happy to get their licensing cut then wash their hands of the whole affair.

    #761 1 year ago
    Quoted from Skypilot:

    Let see, in the last year .....TAF, TAFG, Dr Dude, Scared Stiff, WCS. Those are just the titles I personally know that PPS has had made. Not scanned but silk screened. Care to venture the cost to run a set of licensed, accurate cabinet art? BTW they don't al cart that stuff. Each title ships on a pallet.

    You go, boy! Keep that black market second-hand crap alive. I guess you we not here for the days of no parts. I high-end game's all the time and it's frustrating not getting parts but even more frustrating getting "Shitty" parts. PPS has made great strides in bringing better parts to the market. They may have had growing pains just like any other relatively new company, but I can tell you the stuff being made recently has been a blessing.

    It is simple, you can licsence a graphics shop to do them alcart. Take a fee for each sale. Sit back and enjoy the easy money. Kinda like they do with all the CPR play fields. CPR does all the work and Planetary makes some coin on every one sold for owning the rights. We have plenty of people willing to do the work if PPS will grant them rights to do so!

    #762 1 year ago
    Quoted from Slash:

    That's where I laugh when it's said one of the reasons to enforce the copyright against bootlegs is to maintain the quality. A legitimate point in isolation but when you look at that WH2O topper as an example there was zero care factor about the quality. One would simply draw the conclusion that PPS were happy to get their licensing cut then wash their hands of the whole affair.

    Similar to implementing the playfield assurance option (for an additional fee, of course). Shift the onus onto the end consumer rather than maintaining inventory quality standards and penalising their supplier for defective product.

    Say for example buying a new MM playfield based on the listed picture and then receiving one with a large knothole in the shooter lane.

    All part of the manufacturing process apparently.

    #763 1 year ago

    Regarding the WH2O topper: I’m on it. It just takes way more time than I have ever thought it might take. No idea when we’re done. A hand drawn microscopic PITA

    Anyway, here’s the ‘technology’ we’re building on...

    #764 1 year ago
    Quoted from Slash:

    That's where I laugh when it's said one of the reasons to enforce the copyright against bootlegs is to maintain the quality. A legitimate point in isolation but when you look at that WH2O topper as an example there was zero care factor about the quality. One would simply draw the conclusion that PPS were happy to get their licensing cut then wash their hands of the whole affair.

    From a business standpoint, don't quite agree with your assessment that PPS is really to blame here. They licensed out a WH2O topper - it's in the best interest of the maker (Twisted) to create a quality product because it's THEIR customers they are selling to, and they are the ones that will have to deal with the fallout / refunds / losing customers. PPS really has nothing to do with it, except licensing out. You can't expect them to be all over quality control, and they don't need to be. Their name isn't attached to it at all, except from a few people like yourself that happens to know PPS approves the licensing. It's completely within their right to license out a product that has zero financial implications on themselves. And if a company creates a poor product that they licensed, chances are from a business standpoint they are going to lose out by word-of-mouth and everything else that comes with creating a bad product. It's like Star Wars action figures from, let's say, Hasbro. When they look like crap, do you blame Disney? Of course not - you blame Hasbro.

    Again, it's not up to PPS to quality-control this stuff - with older pinball machines like that, they own the licenses to make money, not to make sure accessories of old pinball machines that they don't even make are top quality. Yeah in essence if they say the main reason to enforce copyright is to maintain quality - that's probably just a feel-good statement and not really accurate - it's pretty simple that the reason to enforce copyright is to protect their investment (ie make money).

    #765 1 year ago
    Quoted from mayuh:

    Regarding the WH2O topper: I’m on it. It just takes way more time than I have ever thought it might take. No idea when we’re done. A hand drawn microscopic PITA
    Anyway, here’s the ‘technology’ we’re building on...
    » YouTube video

    I still find it amazing that techniques that were used 20+ years ago cant easily be replicated today...

    13
    #766 1 year ago
    Quoted from cosmokramer:

    I still find it amazing that techniques that were used 20+ years ago cant easily be replicated today...

    Yeah! Try building the pyramids!

    #767 1 year ago
    Quoted from Eryeal:

    From a business standpoint, don't quite agree with your assessment that PPS is really to blame here. They licensed out a WH2O topper - it's in the best interest of the maker (Twisted) to create a quality product because it's THEIR customers they are selling to, and they are the ones that will have to deal with the fallout / refunds / losing customers. PPS really has nothing to do with it, except licensing out. You can't expect them to be all over quality control, and they don't need to be. Their name isn't attached to it at all, except from a few people like yourself that happens to know PPS approves the licensing. It's completely within their right to license out a product that has zero financial implications on themselves. And if a company creates a poor product that they licensed, chances are from a business standpoint they are going to lose out by word-of-mouth and everything else that comes with creating a bad product. It's like Star Wars action figures from, let's say, Hasbro. When they look like crap, do you blame Disney? Of course not - you blame Hasbro.
    Again, it's not up to PPS to quality-control this stuff - with older pinball machines like that, they own the licenses to make money, not to make sure accessories of old pinball machines that they don't even make are top quality. Yeah in essence if they say the main reason to enforce copyright is to maintain quality - that's probably just a feel-good statement and not really accurate - it's pretty simple that the reason to enforce copyright is to protect their investment (ie make money).

    While you are technically correct, it does seem in PPS' best interest to actually have some level of quality control to items they license - lest the market paint them with the same brush as the producer of the lesser items (e.g. Twisted). Which is why there are many bootleg operations out there

    #768 1 year ago
    Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

    While you are technically correct, it does seem in PPS' best interest to actually have some level of quality control to items they license - lest the market paint them with the same brush as the producer of the lesser items (e.g. Twisted). Which is why there are many bootleg operations out there

    Particularly when all of their higher priced items are sent out with a Bally license authentication with a serialised number attached to it.

    They are, by proxy representing that brand with the not unreasonable expectation at least in the consumer's mind that this item is of a higher standard/grading process than the usual bootleg product.

    #769 1 year ago

    Interesting snip-it of old contract between Lucas and Hasbro like mentioned above.

    13.6. Quality Assurance. Licensee shall ensure that the form, quality and
    standard of all materials used in the connection with the Licensed
    Products conforms to that of the samples approved by Licensor pursuant to
    this Agreement and complies with all good manufacturing practices relevant
    to the Licensed Products including methods of storage and with all laws
    and regulations relevant to the Licensed Products including any relevant
    regulations concerning the manufacture, sale or promotion or labeling or
    marking of such Licensed Products. Any modifications by or on behalf of
    Licensee to the Licensed Products previously approved above shall be
    submitted to Licensor for written approval as if the same were new and
    without approval.

    13.7. Right To Inspect. Licensee shall allow Licensor and/or its duly
    authorized representative the right to inspect samples of the Licensed
    Products at any time and on reasonable notice, and shall afford Licensor
    every reasonable assistance and allow or use reasonable efforts to procure
    them access to any premises of Licensee or other premises where the
    Licensed Products are being created or held on behalf of Licensee, for so
    long as any use is made of the Licensed Property

    Should PPS go as far as Lucas to ensure quality? Hasbro is making millions of the toys, Twisted makes how many toppers?
    Not going to fault PPS on that one.
    PPS has the right to make contracts with licencees as it see fit.
    Copyrights are very powerful, don't mess with those rights.....

    #770 1 year ago
    Quoted from Budwin:

    Interesting snip-it of old contract between Lucas and Hasbro like mentioned above.
    13.6. Quality Assurance. Licensee shall ensure that the form, quality and
    standard of all materials used in the connection with the Licensed
    Products conforms to that of the samples approved by Licensor pursuant to
    this Agreement and complies with all good manufacturing practices relevant
    to the Licensed Products including methods of storage and with all laws
    and regulations relevant to the Licensed Products including any relevant
    regulations concerning the manufacture, sale or promotion or labeling or
    marking of such Licensed Products. Any modifications by or on behalf of
    Licensee to the Licensed Products previously approved above shall be
    submitted to Licensor for written approval as if the same were new and
    without approval.
    13.7. Right To Inspect. Licensee shall allow Licensor and/or its duly
    authorized representative the right to inspect samples of the Licensed
    Products at any time and on reasonable notice, and shall afford Licensor
    every reasonable assistance and allow or use reasonable efforts to procure
    them access to any premises of Licensee or other premises where the
    Licensed Products are being created or held on behalf of Licensee, for so
    long as any use is made of the Licensed Property
    Should PPS go as far as Lucas to ensure quality? Hasbro is making millions of the toys, Twisted makes how many toppers?
    Not going to fault PPS on that one.
    PPS has the right to make contracts with licencees as it see fit.
    Copyrights are very powerful, don't mess with those rights.....

    They're making 20% on each $900 playfield. I think they have enough earnings to pay back those topper buyers... Legally? they dont have to, maybe if they wanted a better customer service...

    #771 1 year ago
    Quoted from cosmokramer:

    I still find it amazing that techniques that were used 20+ years ago cant easily be replicated today...

    Producing is relatively easy actually. Yet the flowing effect has to work with the pinball machine’s lamp sequence. Preferably in the right direction We literally use a microscope to analyze all bumps and valleys from the original...so, yes, replication is hard

    #772 1 year ago
    Quoted from cosmokramer:

    I still find it amazing that techniques that were used 20+ years ago cant easily be replicated today...

    Quoted from spfxted:

    Yeah! Try building the pyramids!

    So maybe the same aliens that built the pyramids should build the WH20 topper? After all, it is Planetary Pinball so maybe the rights and licensing could be granted intergalactically.

    10
    #773 1 year ago
    Quoted from Colsond3:

    So maybe the same aliens that built the pyramids should build the WH20 topper? After all, it is Planetary Pinball so maybe the rights and licensing could be granted intergalactically.

    Scientists have just discovered a big void in the Great Pyramid above the Grand Gallery. An unreliable source has told me that it may be filled with White Water toppers.

    Big VOid (resized).png

    #774 1 year ago
    Quoted from spfxted:

    Yeah! Try building the pyramids!

    Building the pyramids today would be easy ... the problem lies with the cost to do it as the laborers used today would be Union as opposed to slaves! Of course if you put a football stadium inside of it then you can get the taxpayers to pay for it! ! !

    #775 1 year ago
    Quoted from pinsanity:

    Particularly when all of their higher priced items are sent out with a Bally license authentication with a serialised number attached to it.
    They are, by proxy representing that brand with the not unreasonable expectation at least in the consumer's mind that this item is of a higher standard/grading process than the usual bootleg product.

    Well put. (I just wrote that 3 times and autocorrect kept changing it to "sell out". WTH apple?!)

    #776 1 year ago

    Sucks about the WH20 toppers, But at least Twisted came thru with the Taxi Spinout ramp.

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