(Topic ID: 318895)

Review – Precision Pinball Products CNC Flipper System

By DiabloRush

1 year ago


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  • Latest reply 7 hours ago by mIkea
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    Topic index (key posts)

    6 key posts have been marked in this topic

    Display key post list sorted by: Post date | Keypost summary | User name

    Post #1246 Flipper measurements Posted by DiabloRush (1 year ago)

    Post #1320 Settings database links. Posted by Ollulanus (1 year ago)

    Post #2055 Install procedure on a JJP Guns 'n Roses. Posted by fooflighter (1 year ago)

    Post #2099 TECH: ASSEMBLY Fix for flipper that won't clamp Posted by Duster72 (1 year ago)

    Post #2541 Flipper removal process Posted by 1956PINHEAD (8 months ago)


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    14
    #4 1 year ago
    Quoted from DiabloRush:

    A couple of observations about the install: I used a very light coat of grease on the flipper shafts as recommended. This is now a precision metal-on-metal system, and as such, a lubricant will help longevity. Don’t overdo it here. Generally, grease + pinball is a big no-no, at least outside of certain sealed gear-trains. A light amount on the shaft is all that’s needed due to the very close tolerances which serves to keep the lubricant contained.

    Precision milled aluminum is nice, but metal-on-metal movement and the need for grease is a big red flag to me and potential point of failure. Metal-on-metal movement is pretty much going to be a no-go long-term since they will end up grinding together, especially with the frequency of movement with these particular parts. Plus all the fine dust that will eventually gum up the joint. There's a reason why the only place where grease is used is in a sealed gearbox.

    I would be interested to see what the mech looks like after at least 10,000 plays.

    #7 1 year ago
    Quoted from LTG:

    I worry about what if the flipper bat breaks, or the flipper base plate comes loose and drops. Either scenario could be a metal flipper bat dragging on the playfield.
    Back when plastic flipper bats hat a metal base. Anything that went wrong and you get a big scar on the playfield.
    LTG : )

    Yeah, this probably wouldn't result in a graceful failure.

    Quoted from Zitt:

    Well; if you're OPing it... sure.
    But in these days of clear coat in combination with mainly home use; you should be fine.

    Personally, I'm not thrilled with the idea with a new non-standard mech that requires maintenance.

    I wouldn't mind so much if something catches on and becomes the "new standard". But very rarely does something go on to supersede the old established standard to become "the new standard". You just end up with a dozen different smaller ideas/products floating around that you have to keep track of (and keep parts stocked for).

    Do you have any idea what a pain it is to try to restore an Allied Leisure game these days now that all the commonly replaced NOS parts have dried up? Ugh. You're basically SOL unless you replace the mech with another standard, or wait around hoping someone starts manufacturing replacement parts.

    Quoted from Zitt:

    If you look at their weird design; you'll see the bat appears to be missing the most of the "lip" of the bat so probably less of a problem.
    Seems like these are ALOT pricer than PinballLife's original design.
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pbl-aluminum-flipper-bats-long-term-reviews/page/3#post-5976525
    58 >> 30

    Hasn't there been several attempts at aluminium flipper bats in the past 10 years? I can't say that I recall any of them sticking around long-term.

    #10 1 year ago
    Quoted from DiabloRush:

    The PPP system is fully compatible with current flipper mechs. The flipper bats can be used with current bushings or vice versa. Nothing about this system is "non standard". As for maintence, there's basically none. Certainly this sysem requires no more maintainence than current flipper mechs, which require regular service for coil stops and sleeves.

    Regarding wear and lubrication, this system has been properly designed. The shafts are s/steel and the bushings aluminum. There will be no galling on the shafts, and the load is very low on this system and well distributed over the length of the bushing. It's operating in the portion of the Stribeck curve where 10^8 or higher cycles should be easily expected for these materials. I wouldn't expect any wear or additional dust generation.

    Quoted from DiabloRush:

    Finally, the tiny amount of lubrication added might not even be necessary (the developer is testing his parts lubrication-free with success), and the tolerance is so tight on here (on the order of 0.001") that the lubricant is operating in the hydrodynamic regime and fully contained (which also contributes to the stellar Stribeck performance). It's unlikely it's going anywhere for the duration of the part use.

    Where exactly is all this information coming from?

    Quoted from DiabloRush:

    There's already many metal/metal interactions in our machines, most giving rise to substantial wear (see: coil stops)

    Coil stops and plungers make contact upon impact--that is quite different from rotational or linear motion between two or more parts, such as a flipper bat shaft and bushing.

    #13 1 year ago
    Quoted from DiabloRush:

    Yes, it is. Rotational interaction under full-film lubrication conditions produces considerably (by many orders of magnitude) less wear than impact interactions such as coil stops. This is all basic tribology.

    The point was those are two completely different interactions that aren't worth comparing.

    -1
    #19 1 year ago
    Quoted from DiabloRush:

    My point being that the metal/metal interaction in the reviewed flipper bats won't produce particles from wear.

    Maybe, maybe not. But other mechanisms sure do. Pins can get completely covered in coil dust. This all metal mechanism would still have to deal with that. Like I said earlier, it would gum up any lubricant, and once the dust gets inside the mech, it will start grinding.

    While I can't say that I've studied ultra-precision metal-on-metal parts operation in a pinball machine, I would want to see at least 10,000 plays first to get an indication of what may happen.

    #22 1 year ago
    Quoted from DiabloRush:

    I post my own thoughts, contribute my knowledge in an area relevant to our hobby, and I'm challenged and called a "shill"?

    To start, the high level of familiarity with the product that nobody has heard about before and offering details that were not on the product page were potentially suspicious.

    Quoted from DiabloRush:

    Do people not understand that this type of behavior both inhibits innovation and makes others less likely to speak up and contribute, both as innovators and users? I put a lot of time into this review, and wanted to provide my objective evaluation of something new in our hobby, something that I felt offered a substantial improvement in an area long lacking in innovation. No, I wasn't paid. I (perhaps foolishly) thought I was contributing to our community.

    This isn't about you personally--it's all about the product that you brought to our attention.

    What it basically boils down to is this:

    1) Does the product do what is claimed?
    2) Does it offer any benefits over current products?
    3) Does it compromise in any areas compared to current products?
    4) Does the product stand up to long-term use?

    Quoted from DiabloRush:

    The proof was in the play.

    Maybe, but I can't play it to judge for myself (without buying it, anyway). The best thing to do would be to bring it to shows/events/tournaments and let others have a crack at it too and see what they think.

    Quoted from DiabloRush:

    I literally started looping shots on my GZ I had never done before. I'm not alone. On the Twitch stream, below, Joel got similar results. He started backhanding ramps he could never have done before.

    I would argue that making shots like that which might be impossible on a game with traditional flipper parts on a game designed with traditional flipper parts might not be how the game designer intended it to play.

    Quoted from DiabloRush:

    When all you can do is level criticism, and mostly uninformed criticism that most engineers could tell you was a nonissue, you're only serving to inhibit advances.

    Essentially, you said they play nice. A lot of mods look nice or operate well for a few games when freshly installed.

    The point to most of my comments is that pinball machines are a rough environment for mechs. I would like to see some longer term testing, rather than just a handful of games. Put this mod through its paces. Really beat on it and see how it stands up to the abuse.

    While your review serves as an interesting introduction to this new product, it's incomplete.

    #118 1 year ago
    Quoted from alveolus:

    But isn’t the flexing of the flipper and shaft consistent? Say you are shooting from a trap. How would it be different from one flip to another if the timing is equal.

    I can make repeat shots all the time with standard flippers. If they were wildly inconsistent, I probably wouldn't be able to do that.

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