Quoted from punkin:The first post by the OP made it very clear who was who, you didn't need closure. He stated categorically off the bat that he was merely a happy customer with no interest but was repeatably called a liar and a shill by a bunch of people. That's not skepticism, that would be thinking maybe and waiting to see. That's plain rudeness when you call someone a liar.
You obviously saw the post after it was edited - not the original post.
Quoted from jackd104:The system may be more precise, less slop. I would be curious if it really matters in a practical way. I know we have some testimony. I also know human reporting is not reliable. It would be really interesting to do some computer assisted testing to hold constant the timing variable and see what affect there is on shot accuracy vs traditional flippers. Like how many shots out of 100 are missed with each flipper type. Makes me think of the thing flipper in TAF. This isn’t a knock on the product, just an intellectual curiosity.
It's simple... Variable A + Variable B = an outcome more inconsistent than A on its own. If you reduce the variability things will improve even though you still have variable A (the player). It doesn't make the player perfect - but it keeps things more about the player, and less about other randomness.
Your postulate is more about trying to qualify 'well how big is that variable B and is it significant enough to matter?'. A lot of that comes down to the situation I think (bounce vs roll, angle of incident, etc). But we do know there is a wide range of free movement in flippers. So it's not a question of 'if its there' -- it's more about 'is it significant enough vs the player's own inconsistency'. I think that's where the real world testing will give the answer that really matters.
Quoted from flynnibus:You obviously saw the post after it was edited - not the original post.
The only edit to the original post was the addition of the following statement a few minutes after it was first posted, in response to the very first reply asking my affliation with the developer.
“ethics disclosure: I'm an independent hobbiest with no affliation with Precision Pinball Products. This review is entirely my own with no consideration or compensation from anyone. I bought this kit at full retail price from the PPP Pinside shop.”
The body of the post - including my identification as a customer - was never changed or modified (other than spelling/grammar corrections).
I updated this thread (post 185) with information that the developer reached out to me for thoughts on updates to his system. Given that occurred subsequent to my initial review, my ethics disclosure remains accurate in the timeline. As of today, I do have a relationship in the form of unpaid consultation with the developer.
Quoted from flynnibus:You obviously saw the post after it was edited - not the original post.
Also saw lots of said comments made after i saw the original post.
edit; and see above.
Quoted from jackd104:The system may be more precise, less slop. I would be curious if it really matters in a practical way. I know we have some testimony. I also know human reporting is not reliable. It would be really interesting to do some computer assisted testing to hold constant the timing variable and see what affect there is on shot accuracy vs traditional flippers. Like how many shots out of 100 are missed with each flipper type. Makes me think of the thing flipper in TAF. This isn’t a knock on the product, just an intellectual curiosity.
As I mentioned before in this thread, I have seen undeniable differences in accuracy for both the Thing flip and Monster Bash Phantom flip after rebuilding flippers. For those not familiar, these are shots made automatically by the machine with the players "hands off". The shots are calibrated in software to be more accurate. When I rebuild flippers, I do the full Monty that includes bats and bushings along with the normal rebuild parts. I have seen Monster Bash Phantom Flip go from not being able to hit the side of a barn to at least 80-90% accuracy.
Even without this previous knowledge, it is simply not an argument that taking out slop anywhere in the flipper mech will increase accuracy and repeatability. To me it is more on the skeptics to prove that it *doesn't* improve the function of the flipper instead of the other way around. (and good luck with that...)
This does bring up another point though. It would make little sense to upgrade to the metal flipper bats and bushings without also rebuilding the rest of the flipper mechs and links if they are old and worn.
Quoted from DiabloRush:The only edit to the original post was the addition of the following statement a few minutes after it was first posted, in response to the very first reply asking my affliation with the developer
Exactly - confirming that the elements that "OP made it very clear who was who" were not there when the initial responses were made. But we all know this.. it's just typical punkin distortion posts.
Quoted from John_I:This does bring up another point though. It would make little sense to upgrade to the metal flipper bats and bushings without also rebuilding the rest of the flipper mechs and links if they are old and worn.
Excellent point, very much. In the 5 games I’ve installed these, 3 were NIB Sterns I purchased and 2 were heavily used, routed games with ~20,000 plays. I should have mentioned I did full rebuilds on the flipper mechs, to include sleeves, coil stops, and linkages.
Quoted from flynnibus:Exactly - confirming that the elements that "OP made it very clear who was who" were not there when the initial responses were made. But we all know this.. it's just typical punkin distortion posts.
Only one initial response was made - 2 minutes after I posted the review - and my information was updated literally seconds after that. The proof of this is memorialized in post #3, in which I made the exact same statement.
Your term “responses” is inaccurate. It’s singular, “response”. The following sentence was always present: “I purchased a complete PPP system for my Godzilla Premium – a set of 3 flipper bats, shafts, and matching machined aluminum bushings.”. My status as an independent customer was both clear and clearly stated from the beginning. This did not prevent many, many posts claiming I’m a shill. It was only when the developer also made a post (#140) confirming my status as one of his very-first customers did that accusation recede. Peace.
I installed the Precision Flip flippers and bushings from 1956PINHEAD over the weekend, so I don't have too many games on them yet, but man these aluminum flippers look pretty sweet on my Godzilla! 
Quality and functionality are top notch - I had to turn DOWN the flipper power a little! I like to keep my playfields cleaned and waxed and playing very fast.
Fairly easy install and if you have ever changed flippers before you know it can be a pain to get them lined up properly. That's an added benefit of these as the flipper is separate from the shaft and alignment is adjustable from the topside.
On a side note - I tend to play a LOT and have long games/play sessions, so I have my DIY flipper coil fans on the game as well. I'll provide more feedback as I get more time on these and I'll also post some gameplay videos on my youtube channel: "awesome1" on youtube.
IMG_3023 (resized).JPGI officially apologize to DiabloRush for any part I played in his Stress.
I appreciate your fandom and support of another's product.
I still don't agree with his assessment of the product; but, if he's happy I'm happy for him.
The product's not "bad"; just overpriced in my opinion.
Quoted from Zitt:I officially apologize to DiabloRush for any part I played in his Stress.
I appreciate your fandom and support of another's product.
I still don't agree with his assessment of the product; but, if he's happy I'm happy for him.
The product's not "bad"; just overpriced in my opinion.
Thank you. I’ve also supported your products (clear pop bumpers) with enthusiasm. No stress on my end, just a desire to promote my beloved hobby of pinball.
Quoted from Zitt:I still don't agree with his assessment of the product
You didn’t actually evaluate the whole product, you left out the most important part.
Quoted from awesome1:I installed the Precision Flip flippers and bushings from 1956PINHEAD over the weekend, so I don't have too many games on them yet, but man these aluminum flippers look pretty sweet on my Godzilla!
Quality and functionality are top notch - I had to turn DOWN the flipper power a little! I like to keep my playfields cleaned and waxed and playing very fast.
Fairly easy install and if you have ever changed flippers before you know it can be a pain to get them lined up properly. That's an added benefit of these as the flipper is separate from the shaft and alignment is adjustable from the topside.
On a side note - I tend to play a LOT and have long games/play sessions, so I have my DIY flipper coil fans on the game as well. I'll provide more feedback as I get more time on these and I'll also post some gameplay videos on my youtube channel: "awesome1" on youtube.
[quoted image]
Those do look perfect in Godzilla. I could leave my flipper toppers off with those in there!
Quoted from jwilson:You didn’t actually evaluate the whole product, you left out the most important part.
I did evaluate the whole product. I bought the flipper bats as a kit. They were sold separately and claimed to be precision. You can't claim a bat is more precise if it relies on another item sold separately to be precision.
Cargument: You can't claim it's self driving if it lack the hardware to be self driving aware.
Metal on Metal moving parts are a no-no on pinball machines. I stand by this comment and nothing said here will change that.
I'm a big trivia fan. I play as part of a regular team every week in a national game (Showdown/Buzztime/Tuesday nights). Here's the visual round. Identify the games and which parts the following pictures are taken from. 
Here's a hint:
Quoted from Zitt:Metal on Metal moving parts are a no-no on pinball machines. I stand by this comment and nothing said here will change that.
Quoted from punkin:A vuk or a saucer or a scoop are all metal on metal? The striker contacts the ball. Also playfield posts.
To play devil's advocate, I'd gently challenge you to identify examples of rotating parts that get hit by the ball at high speed and hence, have high shock/side loads. I think that's even more representative of the dynamics similar to a flipper bat.
I can't think of any. I got nothing. After all, metal-on-metal moving parts are big no-no.
j/k, obviously. Hope you don't mind a bit of a joke here...
Quoted from Vespula:Are you saying the skulls flipper tops won't adhere to these flippers? I love those tops!
I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying I like the look of the anodized aluminum flippers. Won't really see it under the little flipper skull topper.
Quoted from DiabloRush:I'm a big trivia fan. I play as part of a regular team every week in a national game (Showdown/Buzztime/Tuesday nights). Here's the visual round. Identify the games and which parts the following pictures are taken from.
Here's a hint:[quoted image]
[quoted image]
Top looks like AIQ, bottom looks like Godzilla!
Quoted from DiabloRush:1 out of 2.
Quoted from punkin:He's playing for real, not saying which is correct.
I'm not at my machines, but I'm pretty confident the top one is AIQ... I guessed on Godzilla since I know the Mecha Godzilla setup is similar to Doctor Strange Disc, but I must be wrong.
I'll admit I haven't played much (or at all) or am I extremely familiar with newer Sterns I don't have. 
A huge hint: second one isn't Stern.
Kidding aside, the real reason I posted those pics is the obvious one. Examples of fast spinning parts that are hit hard and which have metal/metal shafts and bushings. And, given these games come from multiple manufacturers, clearly the designers of these games are perfectly ok with metal on metal rotating parts with substantial side load and shocks.
Quoted from DiabloRush:A huge hint: second one isn't Stern.
Kidding aside, the real reason I posted those pics is the obvious one. Examples of fast spinning parts that are hit hard and which have metal/metal shafts and bushings. And, given these games come from multiple manufacturers, clearly the designers of these games are perfectly ok with metal on metal rotating parts.
Hmmm... GNR?
BTW - 1956PINHEAD also makes a great precision aluminum Disc for AIQ... but that's a whole nother discussion!
Quoted from awesome1:Hmmm... GNR?
ding ding ding - we have a winner
Slash solo disk in GnR. That thing gets whacked, hard. Bare steel shaft in a metal bushing. As does the Dr. Strange Portal Disk in AIQ; the bushing carrier is the same part, actually. Used to allow up/down adjustment to level the disk.
Please don't pretend to tell me JJP makes a quality machine.
They don't. And they don't care if it breaks down/ wears out in 3months. More revenue for them via a replacement part.
I'm done flaming this thread with "my" $0.02 by all means; Fanboi's assemble.
It's always with the insults....
Even in an apology you throw an insult in.
Quoted from Zitt:Please don't pretend to tell my JJP makes a quality machine.
They don't. And they haven't learned yet.
I'm done flaming this thread with "my" $0.02 by all means; Fanboi's assemble.
You were wrong again just yesterday, but all Scott Danesi got was 'I stand corrected'.
Is being correct that important to you that you can't even apologise with honesty and grace?
Found something interesting, actually. It turns out, Williams used a metal flipper bushing as part of No Fear. This was the long-tube bushing to reach the upper PF in that game. Williams part number 04-10038. FYI.
edit: I shopped out a no Fear about 25 years ago. I don't remember this. I'm getting old...
large (resized).jpg
Quoted from Zitt:Please don't pretend to tell me JJP makes a quality machine.
They don't. And they don't care if it breaks down/ wears out in 3months. More revenue for them via a replacement part.
I'm done flaming this thread with "my" $0.02 by all means; Fanboi's assemble.
Dear sir, you speak hokum and balderdash.
Quoted from DiabloRush:Found something interesting, actually. It turns out, Williams used a metal flipper bushing as part of No Fear. This was the long-tube bushing to reach the upper PF in that game. Williams part number 04-10038. FYI.
edit: I shopped out a no Fear about 25 years ago. I don't remember this. I'm getting old...
[quoted image]
Yup - because they kept the flipper coil under the PF but the bat was all the way up on the jump ramp. But someone would have to ask the ME what the driving factors were.. could have been cheaper to manufacture, or maybe they didn't trust the nylon with that long of a moment arm. I don't think it had anything to with precision or desire but out of necessity do with durability of the bushing since the bushing body is basically the only support for the flipper over a 6" bar.
Quoted from DiabloRush:Kidding aside, the real reason I posted those pics is the obvious one. Examples of fast spinning parts that are hit hard and which have metal/metal shafts and bushings. And, given these games come from multiple manufacturers, clearly the designers of these games are perfectly ok with metal on metal rotating parts with substantial side load and shocks.
They are also designed to operate dry and use bushing material picked for the application of a wear bushing. Not milled aluminum asking for oil.
There are metal pivots all over the game.. and most wear out over time.. mainly because the points they mount to are generally soft material chosen for its cost. Slingshot and kicker armatures are the most common example of these all metal pivots. Motors are another.. but all will use dry bushings or sealed bearings.
Yes there is metal to metal points in games - but they are almost universally designed to run dry (unless in sealed cases like gearboxes). Flippers are a notable standout scenario. High cycle count, next to the dust makers, and high load.
I know you were trying to just counter the 'metal on metal no no' comment.. but you gotta admit it's chasing words not really proving the validity of the application in question.
Felt it necessary to post this now, figured it was timely. Performance testing to date, stellar. My solution due to limited space constraints, bronze oilite sleeve. Performes as I had expected it would, no real surprises here. Will be available along with the next production run of flipper sets.
Also of note, reporting that multiple games out on location (i.e. routed games) using aluminum bushings are all running smoothly with 600+ games logged to date on each machine.
Shout out to DiabloRush for his assistance and analysis support!
V2 Bushing pair (resized).jpgV2 flipper set w_bushing (resized).jpg
Quoted from 1956PINHEAD:Felt it necessary to post this now, figured it was timely. Performance testing to date, stellar. My solution due to limited space constraints, bronze oilite sleeve. Performes as I had expected it would, no real surprises here. Will be available along with the next prodction run of flipper sets.
[quoted image][quoted image]
Yippee, thanks mate!
The other big modification in your photo is the flipper shaft. The diameter now allows that part to slip through the playfield. This improves flipper mech servicing, providing an option to remove the whole mech if the pinch bolt is stripped. The Stern use of hex heads is a weak point in the design. I’ve had to cut off several flipper bats when shopping games because of stripped pinch bolts. It’s a pain. No more with this design. We’ll done.
Now that John has released the new version of Precision Flip, I thought some might like a bit of behind-the-scenes details. John paid close attention to the responses here, and reached out to me for my thoughts. He had been considering the use of oilite bushings since the beginning, but felt the cost would be prohibitive. We talked about the pluses and minuses, the load path in the bushing, and some small details (Aluminum alloy, stress risers, dimensions). He took note of all of this, and reworked the design tirelessly the last week. When it became clear that a thin bushing could be accommodated without sacrificing strength, he started pricing out the new bushing. Ultimately, he felt the modest increase in cost justified this change. Outside his normal job, he worked this 24/7. The man is tireless! I have texts from him from 5am to midnight, literally.
He machined his first prototypes early this week, and has been testing them vigorously ever since. He devised some accelerated-testing methods which gave him enough confidence to start the first production batch. Watching all this has been fascinating. I can’t tell you how lucky we in the pin community are to have someone bring a truly great product to us as a microbusiness.
I’ve seen dozens of skeptics post about this system the last 10 days. I would hope some of you have the decency to recognize John’s efforts to listen and improve based on constructive feedback. The original design was 100% acceptable, frankly. The pinball community is conservative when it comes to change. Given this, the adoption of a proven design (oilite bushings) can only help with the initial concerns. It’s hard to find other examples of this in pinball or any other hobby where an innovator is this responsive and receptive to feedback. We should strongly encourage folks like John. Precision Flip is a wonderful system, and I’m proud to say I’ve been able to watch it come together from the front lines.
Quoted from DiabloRush:The other big modification in your photo is the flipper shaft. The diameter now allows that part to slip through the playfield. This improves flipper mech servicing, providing an option to remove the whole mech if the pinch bolt is stripped. The Stern use of hex heads is a weak point in the design. I’ve had to cut off several flipper bats when shopping games because of stripped pinch bolts. It’s a pain. No more with this design. We’ll done.
The socket allen head pinch bolts are a poor design in my opinion. I've always had issues with the heads stripping out anytime I work on flipper assemblies, and even the upper flipper pinch bolt on my Godzilla started to strip just as I got it tight enough when installing the Precision flippers... luckily with John's flippers it's not a tighten - check flipper angle - loosen - adjust flipper angle - tighten and repeat until the bolt head strips or you get the correct angle and the bolt is tight enough for the flipper not to move. You also have to make sure the EOS pawl isn't moving while you tighten the screw.
Yesterday I actually ordered some 10/32 x 3/4" Hex Washer Head SS screws for my next flipper go-round. It's actually a little difficult to find Hex Head 10/32's...
Quoted from DiabloRush:Now that John has released the new version of Precision Flip, I thought some might like a bit of behind-the-scenes details. John paid close attention to the responses here, and reached out to me for my thoughts. He had been considering the use of oilite bushings since the beginning, but felt the cost would be prohibitive. We talked about the pluses and minuses, the load path in the bushing, and some small details (Aluminum alloy, stress risers, dimensions). He took note of all of this, and reworked the design tirelessly the last week. When it became clear that a thin bushing could be accommodated without sacrificing strength, he started pricing out the new bushing. Ultimately, he felt the modest increase in cost justified this change. Outside his normal job, he worked this 24/7. The man is tireless! I have texts from him from 5am to midnight, literally.
He machined his first prototypes early this week, and has been testing them vigorously ever since. He devised some accelerated-testing methods which gave him enough confidence to start the first production batch. Watching all this has been fascinating. I can’t tell you how lucky we in the pin community are to have someone bring a truly great product to us as a microbusiness.
I’ve seen dozens of skeptics post about this system the last 10 days. I would hope some of you have the decency to recognize John’s efforts to listen and improve based on constructive feedback. The original design was 100% acceptable, frankly. The pinball community is conservative when it comes to change. Given this, the adoption of a proven design (oilite bushings) can only help with the initial concerns. It’s hard to find other examples of this in pinball or any other hobby where an innovator is this responsive and receptive to feedback. We should strongly encourage folks like John. Precision Flip is a wonderful system, and I’m proud to say I’ve been able to watch it come together from the front lines.
Obviously you haven't tested this yet, but are there any compromises that come with adding the bushing, besides price? would you expect identical performance on brand new parts, just perhaps greater longevity / less maintenance? Would the same flipper strength adjustments, springs in godzilla from your installs of previous versions, all still be applicable to 2.0?
Quoted from awesome1:The socket allen head pinch bolts are a poor design in my opinion. I've always had issues with the heads stripping out anytime I work on flipper assemblies, and even the upper flipper pinch bolt on my Godzilla started to strip just as I got it tight enough when installing the Precision flippers...
If this is a recurring problem - reconsider the tools you are using. You shouldn't have recurring problems with the hex head bolts. You get excellent seating with them and they can be cranked to what seems like forever. Usually the problem is wanting a tool with more torque potential, not the bolt's head giving out. If you are stripping them, ensure you are getting seated squarely and quality tools.
Quoted from awesome1:You also have to make sure the EOS pawl isn't moving while you tighten the screw.
With all the testing I've been doing on my end, I found a little trick to position the EOS pawl. It's not so much a problem on the left-hand mechs, but the right-hand mechs rotate the EOS pawl into the bushing bolts. I found I can just tighten down the bolt, hard, then use a punch (or screwdriver) in the little "pocket" and tap the EOS pawl back into position. Here's a pic of where to put the punch (or screwdriver).
IMG_2116 (resized).JPG
Quoted from Sorokyl:Obviously you haven't tested this yet, but are there any compromises that come with adding the bushing, besides price? would you expect identical performance on brand new parts, just perhaps greater longevity / less maintenance? Would the same flipper strength adjustments, springs in godzilla from your installs of previous versions, all still be applicable to 2.0?
I just got a single set from John this morning for testing. We have a big Pinball party at our place tonight, and I'll test all weekend. On first glance, there's no other compromise other than cost that I can see. Tolerances are the same, and the same low-play exists between bushing and shaft. I'll report back after we have the party tonight and some time on the games this weekend.
edit: see below. tolerance on the new bushings is considerably better.
IMG_2176 (resized).JPG
Quoted from DiabloRush:I just got a single set from John this morning for testing. We have a big Pinball party at our place tonight, and I'll test all weekend. On first glance, there's no other compromise other than cost that I can see. Tolerances are the same, and the same low-play exists between bushing and shaft. I'll report back after we have the party tonight and some time on the games this weekend.[quoted image]
Put a drop of super lube on the shaft, you should be good to go.
It dries out and does not collect black dust.
The oilite bearing should last forever with the super lube applied.
https://www.amazon.com/10-pack-Purpose-Synthetic-Based/dp/B00ZW7V07I
My prior post on the new bushings is mistaken. They are not the same tolerance. They're considerably better. Just measured the slop and runout. Slop of the v2 bushing is just a touch over 1 mil. Old system was 2.5 mils. Runout (concentricity) is zero. I see no runout on my dial indicator. Both measurements show below FYI. Note at the end as I rotate the flipper through 180 degrees. No deflection on the gauge. Precision indeed.
Quoted from pinballinreno:Put a drop of super lube on the shaft, you should be good to go.
It dries out and does not collect black dust.
The oilite bearing should last forever with the super lube applied.
amazon.com link »
Nice suggestion. I think I'll give this a try on one of them. I have this set as a test bed for John. I'll probably leave the other dry (no lube) for testing purposes. For end use, just a drop or so like desribed above is a good idea.
Quoted from flynnibus:If this is a recurring problem - reconsider the tools you are using. You shouldn't have recurring problems with the hex head bolts. You get excellent seating with them and they can be cranked to what seems like forever. Usually the problem is wanting a tool with more torque potential, not the bolt's head giving out. If you are stripping them, ensure you are getting seated squarely and quality tools.
Thank you.
Just to confirm - Socket Allen Head bolts are the problematic ones - see pic (Not this exact bolt, but that style of head). I ordered some Hex heads to try moving forward since I could use a closed or open end wrench on them.
I agree on the tool issues - space limitation and accessing the bolt head is also part of the problem. Not enough space to get a ratchet with allen wrench "socket" in there, so have to use allen "L" wrench which makes it very difficult to get enough torque on the bolt head to keep the flipper from moving. Sometimes I'll use a long small socket on a changeable 1/4" drive screwdriver style handle placed over the allen wrench "L" handle to allow more torque to tighten, but you can get a little off center which can start to strip the allen socket head out.
I'm very mechanically inclined with a lot of experience, but open to any suggestions before I try the hex head bolt approach.
Quoted from punkin:[quoted image]
Nice, but the T looks too tall to fit. Were you able to use that?
Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!
This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/review-precision-pinball-products-cnc-flipper-system/page/5 and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.
Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.
Woolgoolga
Austin, TX
Toronto, ON
