I can see pros/cons to this flipper setup. Not my cup of tea but I can respect the ingenuity and craftsmanship.
Only suggestion I have is a ceramic sealed bearing in the bushing would be smooth with no lube needed. No different than skateboard wheels or fishing reel bearings. Hell fishing reel bearing may be right inside diameter for the shafts already. Yet that would mean you would have to machine bushing to receive bearing and 2) flipper bat shaft would be press fit.
Quoted from DiabloRush:Perhaps some other readers can help me understand the negativity here? I don't get it. I post my own thoughts, contribute my knowledge in an area relevant to our hobby, and I'm challenged and called a "shill"? Do people not understand that this type of behavior both inhibits innovation and makes others less likely to speak up and contribute, both as innovators and users? I put a lot of time into this review, and wanted to provide my objective evaluation of something new in our hobby, something that I felt offered a substantial improvement in an area long lacking in innovation. No, I wasn't paid. I (perhaps foolishly) thought I was contributing to our community.
I feel this system is a genuine innovation. Not one comment on the superior performance. The proof was in the play. I literally started looping shots on my GZ I had never done before. I'm not alone. On the Twitch stream, below, Joel got similar results. He started backhanding ramps he could never have done before.I would love to see similar innovation in our hobby. When all you can do is level criticism, and mostly uninformed criticism that most engineers could tell you was a nonissue, you're only serving to inhibit advances. Sorry to rant. I've tried to remain factual and state the basis for reasoning behind my judgements.
Well, you Sir are most definitely of the engineering persuasion. I speak with like minds daily and most have a thinner skin dealing with criticism. That’s not an insult, it’s part of the build. It’s fine.
Keeping in mind this design affects both lastabilty and playability which have to be proven long term testing. Duration tests performed? Steel shaft vs alum bushing vs plastic original bushing comparison. Humidity/ ambient temperature variances.
I’m considering picking up kits for my B/W pins and seeing results first hand.
We are passionate hobbyists and pushback is to be expected. Your facts are spot on but delivery needs polish. Otherwise thank you for the preliminary information.
I like the look and the idea of improving flipper performance. At first glance I thought the top holes were there to key the bat to the shaft but that doesn't appear to be the case. One concern I have is with the spline/bat interface stripping. Is locktite used on the top screw?
Quoted from 1956PINHEAD:After reading all the posts up to this stage, as the designer/manufacturer of this product I felt it appropriate to finally make a post in this thread. Up to this point I wanted to stay away so as not to 'Taint the Water' and let the participants post without my trying to sway, convince, rebut, make sales pitches, argue for or against, taking sides, up vote/down vote, etc, etc, etc.
However, my ethics and morals finally compelled me to post the following as I feel Diablorush has been drug through the muck long enough. I'm not here to pass judgement on anyone, just offer my perspective. As many have stated in these forums pinball is a personal thing to each of us, we buy, play, mod, and tweak to our personal likes. The fact that we all have options makes this hobby even better, way better than when I first started playing pinball 62 years ago! To that I offer the following:
Diablorush was one of the very first customers to purchase this mod and has subsequently purchased several more kits for his games, he has stated this and I'm going on the record to validate it as well. My interaction with the man over the past several weeks has convinced me he possesses a very high level of IQ, intellect, and pretty much all things science. Having personal insight into what makes him tic is best described this way, he thinks and operates at levels in the stratosphere where I consider myself to be at around 10,000 feet. Being in this hobby provides a path for bringing people together; some see it as an opportunity to assassinate someone's character at the expense of forgetting while we all play pinball in the first place, for the enjoyment!
As I see it, I'm lucky that he's in this hobby and has taken a liking to my product. Having someone with his level of knowledge and expertise sharing his personal views is his choice and his alone. I'm certain that some reading this will continue to cast that aside, so be it.
For those who are genuinely interested in this product like any new product it takes time to understand what the masses desire. I've received a lot of positive constructive feedback from many. I intend to make some changes to the way I list and sell the parts; changes will be coming to combine certain parts in packages/kits, and new parts are on the way. This feedback has been valuable in helping me better align to the wants and needs for those who have both purchased the product or at some point may choose to do so in the future.
For everyone, please keep in mind that I could have made all these parts from Titanium, stuck bearings in them, and machined them down to .0005 as well. At some point common sense has to be the driver in the final decesion. Bringing this product to a price point obtainable for most was one of my primary objectives while offering what I felt to be a level of materials and quality above the parts they replace.
Finally, If I ever get the chance to meet any of you in person at one point (show, convention, barcade, etc.) you'll find I'm a pretty easy-going guy that just likes pinball and good tasting beer. Can't we just all get along! I do not intend to continue posting in this forum thread, I've said what I wanted to say.
Thank you,
John
Very good post and you’re such an asset to our pinball community. Enjoy your work and look forward to more PPP parts and ideas that only propel pinball into the 21st century. Its high time we improve so many area’s from the long ago past that can and should be made better with higher tech materials. You’re just the guy we need to accomplish this feat with your many years of being an important engineer in the aerospace industry. Sharing knowledge that only makes pinball better. Big thanks John!!
Quoted from DiabloRush:I'm very surprised no one else has provided their detailed comments. There's been almost no discussion from actual owners (either negative or positive). Those reviews will come, fairly quickly I would think.
I expect most reviews will be positive, whether people can tell any difference in performance or not, as those who spend the money naturally want to justify their purchase. It's just human nature. They look very nice, but I'm not a fan of metal rubbing against metal without a self-lubricating bushing.
Quoted from DiabloRush:I get it. You're skeptical of these flippers, you're capable of evaluating them without actually trying them, and on that basis, can readily conclude these have no added value for you, and probably no value for anyone else, either. Let's bash anyone that differs with that opinion, too, while we're at it. Cool. By all means, don't purchase these. I'm glad my review can help you reach that decision. My review has served its purpose and saved you both time and money! You're welcome.
As for this question, it's a good one. Warning: the answer requires a modicum of engineering knowledge and common sense. You've been warned.Great question. You'd think that from the same position, even sloppy flippers would shoot the same shot? Well, that term "same position" is the crux. Flipper mechs have an surprisingly large number of something called "degrees-of-freedom". These are independent variables that effect the structural dynamics of the system. And here's the thing: the ultimate motion of the bat when you activate the coil depends on each one of those variables. Hence, when you say "same position" you have to account for all those variables. If they all aren't the same, then the system is going to respond differently. Just eyeballing the flipper mechs, it looks like there's at least 15 degrees of freedom there. The reasons the same "trapped" shot on a sloppy flipper mech won't shoot exactly the same each time is all those other things are slightly different shot-to-shot.
Disclaimer: I do have an engineering background, but in electronics, my knowledge of mechanics interaction is long gone (say by about... err... 30 years).
Anyway, I'd be curious to know the 15 degrees of freedom. I only managed to find 8 or so (basically XYZ for the shaft itself, flex for the bat - which is one unless I'm mistaken, slop between the bat and the shaft - how many would that account for ? Should be one, rotational, right ?, two for the plunger, one for the "gear" converting linear movement to rotational movement, and that's about it that I could figure out)
A few other questions if you don't mind:
- What about longevity ? Some have stated that metal to metal will induce wear over time, is this really a problem ?
- Do you feel the bearings will need to be replaced, and if so how often ?
Cheers, and thanks for all the information.
Quoted from Ashram56:Anyway, I'd be curious to know the 15 degrees of freedom. I only managed to find 8 or so
The pic below is a flipper linkage. Plunger, plastic tab, and pinch bolt.* There's slop in all of it. Any moving object has 6 degrees of freedom in free space: 3 for translation and 3 for rotation (X,Y,Z, roll, pitch, yaw).** Some of these are constrained when hooked to other parts. If there's slop between those parts, each element can retain a limited range of motion in all 6 degrees, though some of them will be small, some very small. So, that part alone has 6 for the plunger, 6 more for the plastic tab, and 6 further with the pinch bolt linkage.
Now, a few of these are fairly well constrained, but not zero given the low tolerance in the connections. Add 6 more for the flipper shaft and bat. So, just adding those up, you've got 24 degrees. Finally, the coil stop is yet another component that needs to be considered. There's flex in the bracket and coil mount ( a coil will move slightly back and forther with respect to the coil stop. So you need to add another 6 degrees for the coil stop. I'm now up to ~30. There's other, complicating effects that I'm not considering. I haven't counted the coil sleeve as a separate element. That could be an error on my part. You assume rigid, homogenous and unchanging material properties in each element, for example. Non-rigid (flexing) parts can really complicate this and can add many more degrees of freedom. I assume constant material properities. Strength, density, elastic modulus. Those can vary, too, and add additional degrees (as components swell with temperature, for example). But, you get the idea....
Now, to be clear, some of these are very small ranges indeed, but not zero. If you want to mechanically describe the motion of this system, you need to know the position in space and rate of acceleration and rotation of each of those elements. Over 30 of them. My figure of 15 was a judgement that maybe half of these are so small as to be insignificant (for example, its probably ok to treat the pinch bolt, shaft, and bat as a single element). This is why I said "just eyeballing it". A proper analysis of which of these elements dominates the motion (often called a sensitivity analysis) could be done with an appropriate FEA (finite element analysis) code. This is done all the time in industry; we do it with the world's fastest computers where I work that take months (and sometimes a year or two) to complete for a single system.
Finally, just an off hand comment. This discussion explains why I'm such a lousy golfer. The golf swing has literally hundreds of degrees of freedom associated with it. Despite 50+ years of training, I've been unable to control the vast majority of those. I will never have glory on the PGA tour as a result. This is true for basically all athletic endeavors. Getting all those motions to be consistent is non-trivial. Peace.
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*it's probably more correct to treat this as 4 elements instead of 3. The bolt attaching the pinch bolt to the plastic tab is very sloppy in many of these. Hence, that bolt is yet another element. None-the-less, I think you get the idea here....
**you sometimes see X,Y, and Z referred to by the alternate terms surge, sway, and heave.
Thanks for the detailed answer
I'm familiar with FEA (used that in fluid simulation ages ago, as part of my studies, as well as material physics, also ages ago). My son actually uses that technique as well to model the behaviour of a tire train in a racing car (part of his engineering school studies). Kind of relieved that this technique which was teached 30 years ago is still relevant, at least I don't feel that old anymore 
It would be really cool to have a high speed capture similar to the video you posted above when using these precision bats, just to see how the ball react. Kind of wonder if you would still have such a pronounced "double bounce" effect (for lack of a better word)
What about wear over time ?
Not sure why this wasn't posted earlier... slow-mo guys video from two years ago was great
Here you can see the flipper linkage slop as the mech vibrates as the plunger hits the coil stop
Quoted from flynnibus:Not sure why this wasn't posted earlier... slow-mo guys video from two years ago was great
Here you can see the flipper linkage slop as the mech vibrates as the plunger hits the coil stop
It was posted by the OP somewhere in the thread
Fascinating to see the "double hit" caused by flipper flex
Quoted from flynnibus:Not sure why this wasn't posted earlier... slow-mo guys video from two years ago was great
Here you can see the flipper linkage slop as the mech vibrates as the plunger hits the coil stop
Those are also, nice new solid flipper bats on a JJP machine (weak flippers). The plastic bats get old quickly on Williams and Stern games. A lot of them are not built very well. The plastic cross members under the flipper break a lot and cause the flippers to be really flexible. Also, some bats have less struts than others making them flexible right from the factory. Here are some pictures from a while back that I took of three flippers that I bought from Marcos and/or Pinball Life in the same time frame. Two are standard flippers and you can see the white is a typical poor design, the yellow has even less struts and the segmented (longer) yellow is extra reinforced and the struts go all the way to the bottom of the bat. The weaker yellow flipper can easily be bent in your hands with little pressure. It is really sad! The segmented yellow with the enhanced internal structure is hard as a rock. The white is in between on stiffness and probably represents and average flipper. Just one broken strut inside and it will be as weak as the yellow one!
So essentially, someone could make a better plastic flipper that is almost as stiff as the aluminum bats by mimicking the segmented design. Problem is still that the struts like to break. I always look into the bottom of the bats when I rebuild flippers and they are broken a surprising amount of the time.
20200426_171517 (resized).jpg20200426_171908 (resized).jpgQuoted from Ashram56:What about wear over time ?
You’ll have wear between these parts, certainly. The question is how much? It’s well designed from a load standpoint. Lot’s of surface area for the side-loads. There’s piles of engineering studies of metal wear in bushings; I obliquely referred to some of this early in my discussions here.* Considering this tribology, I think these will wear nicely for fairly long lifetimes. As part of my ordering 2nd and 3rd rounds of parts from John, I had a discussion with him about testing. He’s doing a lot on his end. Wear testing. Load testing. He’s even planning failure testing by looking at the peak torque his joint will tolerate before breaking. That’s really impressive for a one-man show selling boutique parts to a small community like us. I want to encourage that, its a service to our hobby way above-and-beyond what many offer.
I knew the moment I said “lubricant” that the pinball skeptics would come roaring out of the dugout. It’s been mantra in our hobby to the point of religion to NEVER, EVER USE OIL OR GREASE IN A PINBALL. That advice is still generally applicable, because the things that a novice might be tempted to lubricate were designed to NOT need lubrication. This system is different. It WAS properly designed to use a tiny bit of lubrication to help long-term performance and reduce wear. By proper design, I mean tight-tolerance, small gaps (less than 0.001”), and low loads over extended surface area. The lubricant you use in that gap shouldn’t be coming out at any significant rate, and neither should contaminants be getting into that gap, either.
All that said, the real test will be in having a number of these parts on real machines for extended periods. This is a new system, and yes, there’s some uncertainty associated with long-term performance. I’m truly comfortable with that element. I can always swap back in standard plastic bushings after all, though you’d lose most of the precision benefits in that case. This isn’t the only metal/metal moving contacts in a pinball. There’s lots of this in coil stops, switch contacts, and occasionally the use of bushings on some rotating mechs.
In sum, I think every effort has been made in this design to mitigate concerns about wear. I was comfortable enough to swap out all the flippers in my games to the PPP system. Its a lovely system. I spent several hours on AIQ yesterday, and it was shear joy to play that game with such consistent flipper performance.
——-
* early in this thread (post #8) I referred to the “Stribeck” curve. This well-established curve in tribology shows the amount of wear in bushings as a function of load, lubricant viscosity, and speed. It’s highly non-linear. Properly designed, you want to operate in the low-wear areas of this curve. John’s design does this.
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Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:Actually poking fun at the shill for not being capable of answering direct questions, and replying with googled up jargon.
If that's the case, the OP's Google-Fu is way better than mine. And I Google-Fu to afford pinball, so much respect to OP.
The animosity is likely due to those thinking they're the "smartest person in the forum" and can't stand having their mind blown.
Quoted from DiabloRush:The pic below is a flipper linkage. Plunger, plastic tab, and pinch bolt.* There's slop in all of it. Any moving object has 6 degrees of freedom in free space: 3 for translation and 3 for rotation (X,Y,Z, roll, pitch, yaw).** Some of these are constrained when hooked to other parts. If there's slop between those parts, each element can retain a limited range of motion in all 6 degrees, though some of them will be small, some very small. So, that part alone has 6 for the plunger, 6 more for the plastic tab, and 6 further with the pinch bolt linkage.
Now, a few of these are fairly well constrained, but not zero given the low tolerance in the connections. Add 6 more for the flipper shaft and bat. So, just adding those up, you've got 24 degrees. Finally, the coil stop is yet another component that needs to be considered. There's flex in the bracket and coil mount ( a coil will move slightly back and forther with respect to the coil stop. So you need to add another 6 degrees for the coil stop. I'm now up to ~30. There's other, complicating effects that I'm not considering. I haven't counted the coil sleeve as a separate element. That could be an error on my part. You assume rigid, homogenous and unchanging material properties in each element, for example. Non-rigid (flexing) parts can really complicate this and can add many more degrees of freedom. I assume constant material properities. Strength, density, elastic modulus. Those can vary, too, and add additional degrees (as components swell with temperature, for example). But, you get the idea....
Now, to be clear, some of these are very small ranges indeed, but not zero. If you want to mechanically describe the motion of this system, you need to know the position in space and rate of acceleration and rotation of each of those elements. Over 30 of them. My figure of 15 was a judgement that maybe half of these are so small as to be insignificant (for example, its probably ok to treat the pinch bolt, shaft, and bat as a single element). This is why I said "just eyeballing it". A proper analysis of which of these elements dominates the motion (often called a sensitivity analysis) could be done with an appropriate FEA (finite element analysis) code. This is done all the time in industry; we do it with the world's fastest computers where I work that take months (and sometimes a year or two) to complete for a single system.
Finally, just an off hand comment. This discussion explains why I'm such a lousy golfer. The golf swing has literally hundreds of degrees of freedom associated with it. Despite 50+ years of training, I've been unable to control the vast majority of those. I will never have glory on the PGA tour as a result. This is true for basically all athletic endeavors. Getting all those motions to be consistent is non-trivial. Peace.
[quoted image]
*it's probably more correct to treat this as 4 elements instead of 3. The bolt attaching the pinch bolt to the plastic tab is very sloppy in many of these. Hence, that bolt is yet another element. None-the-less, I think you get the idea here....
**you sometimes see X,Y, and Z referred to by the alternate terms surge, sway, and heave.
The linkage and 'slop' in the linkage, coil stops... the whole system of flippers could certainly use refinement.
The current systems break too often, generate too much steel shaving waste (dirtying up the PF and game), and likely are partially responsible for overheating coils, boards, etc....
I lack the technical education to comment otherwise - some things just seem too obvious without having to know the particulars.
I'm all for it. This stuff looks like a good start.
Quoted from pb456:If that's the case, the OP's Google-Fu is way better than mine. And I Google-Fu to afford pinball, so much respect to OP.
The animosity is likely due to those thinking they're the "smartest person in the forum" and can't stand having their mind blown.
Yep, there's three or four posting in this thread that hold that self image, or at least it comes across that way.
Quoted from pb456:so much respect to OP
Thanks, very much. I'm old enough to do things like this the old-fashioned way, from learned experience and training. I didn't use google for anything in this thread. It's all based on decades of engineering in a complex field. That may seem super-amazing, but its not. Pretty much everything I've talked about is basic engineering that most of the engineers I know could repeat from memory. At least the ones trained in the pre-internet era, when you read actual books and had hard classes that used obscure concepts like "math".
Quoted from pb456:The current systems break too often, generate too much steel shaving waste (dirtying up the PF and game)
I've wondered about the ubiquitious "black-dust" in well-used games for a long time. I've been very tempted to get a sample of this into one of our XPS or Auger spectrometers to do an elemental analysis and see what this stuff actually is. I, too, have assumed it's metal oxides from wear, but I'd love to have more data on that. The reason I haven't done that is it would be an abuse of my employers resources. I need to think of a legitimate reason to analyze that dust. Maybe I could argue that I'm excluding wear-based aging mechanisms in the stuff we build, and use this as a case study... Hmmm.....
Precision Pinball is now sold out of their flipper kits. Not sure what their inventory level was but it smells like the market will support an after market for better flippers.
Quoted from pb456:If that's the case, the OP's Google-Fu is way better than mine. And I Google-Fu to afford pinball, so much respect to OP.
The animosity is likely due to those thinking they're the "smartest person in the forum" and can't stand having their mind blown.
Not really accurate. Too many schillers pushing crappy product so some get jaded or expect bs. Not seeing any of that here, so please don’t connect any dots.
Quoted from Zambonilli:Precision Pinball is now sold out of their flipper kits. Not sure what their inventory level was but it smells like the market will support an after market for better flippers.
Ironically all of the skepticism and replies to this thread questioning the product probably brought more attention to it and more people bought the product! Now we'll get to hear more real world reviews from multiple people, which is good.
Quoted from DiabloRush:Thanks, very much. I'm old enough to do things like this the old-fashioned way, from learned experience and training. I didn't use google for anything in this thread. It's all based on decades of engineering in a complex field. That may seem super-amazing, but its not. Pretty much everything I've talked about is basic engineering that most of the engineers I know could repeat from memory. At least the ones trained in the pre-internet era, when you read actual books and had hard classes that used obscure concepts like "math".
I've wondered about the ubiquitious "black-dust" in well-used games for a long time. I've been very tempted to get a sample of this into one of our XPS or Auger spectrometers to do an elemental analysis and see what this stuff actually is. I, too, have assumed it's metal oxides from wear, but I'd love to have more data on that. The reason I haven't done that is it would be an abuse of my employers resources. I need to think of a legitimate reason to analyze that dust. Maybe I could argue that I'm excluding wear-based aging mechanisms in the stuff we build, and use this as a case study... Hmmm.....
Oh yeah please do ! I'm really curious to know as well what's this black dust. Maybe ask your employer nicely, you know, "in the name of science" ?
Now time for another challenge as well: if you were to design from scratch a flipper mechanism, reliable, precise, cheap, what would be your preferred option ?
Quoted from DiabloRush:IMHO, the "too consistent" argument is 100% valid. That's a decision everyone needs to have for themselves. This system is noticeably more consistent than stock. I was accurate when I said I started looping shots on the PPP flippers that I couldn't consistently do before. Others (Joel) have reported the same thing. In his case, backhand shots opened up that weren't consistently available on the OEM setup.
As my review states, I'm not a great player. Is this system too consistent? From my standpoint, that's a feature I'm happy with. But, I don't play tournament pinball; I pretty much enjoy tinkering, restoring and playing games in my own home. I also have a soft spot for well-engineered stuff. One reason I've enjoyed Radio Control as a hobby, too, along with watchmaking, shifter kart racing, and a few others. Some of the stuff in those Shifter Karts are a marvel to behold. So well made. I also love a well-engineered model kit. The pic, below, is the lovely Pocher 1/4 scale Ducati. Incredible kit, so fun to build. YMMV.
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Fantastic stuff!!! Go Navy!
Quoted from Ashram56:Now time for another challenge as well: if you were to design from scratch a flipper mechanism, reliable, precise, cheap, what would be your preferred option ?
I’m going to give you the 30 second lesson that’s the core of design. Applies almost anywhere. Ready?
There’s 3 main objectives in engineering design: high performance, reliable, and cheap.
Simple enough, right? So, here’s the job of the designer: pick two.
Unfortunately, you can’t have all three. Once 2 of these goals are specified, the third variable is fixed.
OEM flippers chose reliable and cheap. Hence, they forgo high performance. PPP flippers are reliable and high performance. Hence, they cost more.
If you can somehow overcome this basic rule, first patent your design then get rich selling it to everyone. We have a name for these unicorns. We call them “the better mousetrap”. Here endith the lesson.
Quoted from DiabloRush:I’m going to give you the 30 second lesson that’s the core of design. Applies almost anywhere. Ready?
There’s 3 main objectives in engineering design: high performance, reliable, and cheap.
Simple enough, right? So, here’s the job of the designer: pick two.
Unfortunately, you can’t have all three. Once 2 of these goals are specified, the third variable is fixed.
OEM flippers chose reliable and cheap. Hence, they forgo high performance. PPP flippers are reliable and high performance. Hence, they cost more.
If you can somehow overcome this basic rule, first patent your design then get rich selling it to everyone. We have a name for these unicorns. We call them “the better mousetrap”. Here endith the lesson.
We won’t know for a while if these are reliable.
Hey everyone! No idea how I missed this thread until now and I was rather surprised to see my streams posted here as well as my words being quoted. I've recently talked about my experience with John's flippers/bushings on my stream, Triple Drain Pinball Podcast, and The Pinball Show. Overall I am very impressed with it. I can say with all honesty that the product exceeded my expectations and my shots are absolutely more accurate on my TMNT with theses installed. The first night I streamed with the game I set the high score for all 4 turtles and the overall GC. I will gladly get a set for my other games because pinball is a whole lot more fun when you hit more of your shots 
I am NOT an engineer and can't speak for anything scientific but I do play pinball and the game really just shot and felt better once these were installed. If anyone has any questions feel free to PM me or ask away.
Quoted from DiabloRush:I’m going to give you the 30 second lesson that’s the core of design. Applies almost anywhere. Ready?
There’s 3 main objectives in engineering design: high performance, reliable, and cheap.
Simple enough, right? So, here’s the job of the designer: pick two.
Unfortunately, you can’t have all three. Once 2 of these goals are specified, the third variable is fixed.
OEM flippers chose reliable and cheap. Hence, they forgo high performance. PPP flippers are reliable and high performance. Hence, they cost more.
If you can somehow overcome this basic rule, first patent your design then get rich selling it to everyone. We have a name for these unicorns. We call them “the better mousetrap”. Here endith the lesson.
Guess why there was these four exact terms in my sentence : reliable, precise, cheap, challenge
Joke aside, technology evolves, and what was considered as costly 20y ago is not costly anymore. That's certainly the case in electronics anyway. I would wonder if newer technology in materials/mechanics could not be used. But it's rather a speculation on my part, mechanics not being my area of expertise.
Quoted from DiabloRush:I've wondered about the ubiquitious "black-dust" in well-used games for a long time. I've been very tempted to get a sample of this into one of our XPS or Auger spectrometers to do an elemental analysis and see what this stuff actually is. I, too, have assumed it's metal oxides from wear, but I'd love to have more data on that. The reason I haven't done that is it would be an abuse of my employers resources. I need to think of a legitimate reason to analyze that dust. Maybe I could argue that I'm excluding wear-based aging mechanisms in the stuff we build, and use this as a case study... Hmmm.....
There is both rubber grit in games and fine metal dust from the mechanisms. We know it's metal because if you have magnets anywhere in the game, you can see the dust settle based on the magnetic field. It's also why the coil wrappers get filthy. The question would be which metal pieces are the main culprit.. the assumption being the coil stop itself with the plunger and other light steel parts wearing being lesser contributors. Considering the material gets so fine... I expect the coil stop being pulverized is the main contributor. The wild part is how it travels so much if the main contributor is inside the coil and sleeve. It must move via airflow.. and suprised how much makes it to the topside. Being magnetized could help suspended material get it to the ball, which then tracks it everywhere.
You can also see in Stern games that their coil stop rivets basically tear themselves apart, but since that's the rivet and not the contact surface, it breaks into pieces that are larger, and the rivet is non-ferrous so it just drops to the bottom of the cabinet.
Quoted from flynnibus:I expect the coil stop being pulverized is the main contributor.
yeap; the cheap brass coil stops used in Stern Star Trek definitely left a fine brass powder everywhere.
Quoted from Zitt:yeap; the cheap brass coil stops used in Stern Star Trek definitely left a fine brass powder everywhere.
That's the rivet side of the coil stop though. Not the part that is actually taking the direct plunger hit. The rivet side is softer to actually be able to be pressed for the fit/hold. Their coil stops in particular have that softer portion wear out and leave their 'gold dust' down in the cabinet. But it's not magnetic... hence why it just falls into the cabinet while the dust from the stop itself makes its way topside and everywhere else
Quoted from punkin:…. it's funny to watch people who spend $10k on a pinball whine about $100. Toppers selling for $2k and the thing my eyes are glued to the whole game is only $50? Give it to me.
This ^^^
I don’t do ‘toppers’ and toys, so I chose to mod my game with something that may actually improve the performance of the machine.
I bought the flipper kit with the bushings because it seemed logical to go all the way. I installed them on my JP since that game isn’t leaving my collection and I wanted to experiment with different flipper angles. I bought the 3 flipper kit but didn’t install the third as there isn’t much benefit from changing the upper flipper imo. GZ will be getting the next set of flippers when they’re back in stock.
Do they work?
Seems like it. They’re definitely easier to adjust the flipper angles on. I can’t tell you how many pommels I’ve replaced because I had to loosen-tighten-repeat and they won’t get tight any more.
The flippers are snappy, strong, and very consistent in feel. I’ve had no issues with flipper return or bounce with the stock return springs. I put a small amount of superlube on the shaft where it makes contact with the bushing (top and inside) and haven’t had any issues after a month of use. In the future I’ll use a small dab of silicone lube.
I don’t think in a HOU environment that there will be any long term issues. Would I drop these flippers in a routed game - no - but on my game/s I like the upgrade. I can’t imagine how many games it would take for the steel shaft to eat through an aluminum bushing but if/when that happens, I’ll buy another bushing. There are a lot of consumable costs in pinball. Collecting rocks is a way cheaper hobby - have fun with that.
3272F5D7-1DC3-425A-9199-115C88E35FFB (resized).jpeg
I'd like to try this on my Iron Maiden upper flipper to see if I can hit the loop more frequently. I think the way the ball comes around the loop so fast may exaggerate any slop in the mechanism and my shot from that flipper always feels so inconsistent. I just assume it's because I suck but I'd like to see if these actually help with that.
It's nice to see a few other independent reviews trickling in. I note that all other reviewers are finding improvements in consistency and feel.
There's another piece of news that may be of interest to those considering the PPP system. As a result of my posts here the last week or two, the developer (John) reached out and asked my opinion on a few changes he's considering for his design to further improve long-term reliability. First, I was humbled to have a chance to help in this regard. It's actually really awesome to combine my professional expertise with a hobby I so much enjoy! And, what a pleasure to have the designer reach out and want feedback from his customers. Second, while my thought was the changes weren't needed, they certainly added an extra degree of engineering that should put many skeptics at ease.
The first version of the PPP design was really well-done. There's some engineering details not fully discussed on his product page that I had a chance to do a deep-dive with John in our discussions. The attention to detail and development that John has put into this system is extensive. Honestly, our hobby is fortunate to have someone devote so much effort to a system that really does bring an improvement in play. The second version of his system makes a few changes to further improve serviceability, installation, and long-term reliability.
I'm excited to have John reveal details for all this shortly. In the meantime, to all those folks that already purchased systems, John told me he’ll be reaching out next week with a nice offer to upgrade your system.
Plus, he's a really nice guy too. Some retailers here just won't even bother posting to Australia. I know you guys get it because some European countries won't post to the USA. John went out of his way to combine freight for me on two orders. Great service.
SoThere'sThatPunkin
Quick review on Precision Flippers. I love the look. I'm running the 3 red flippers with GID low bounce Titans. I didn't bother with the upper playfield because it is already covered in skulls. I suck at pinball, but the new flippers definitely "feel" better, and to me, seem stronger. Previously, I bumped up coil power to 29/30. When I installed the new flippers, I set the coils back to default, and the flippers feel like they hit just as hard. Just powered up the game to get some photos for this review, and one of the ramp shots actually ricocheted from the diverter and jumped over to the ball lock. Of course, as time goes on, fade will set in.
Right now, I only have the flippers installed, and I am using the stock nylon bushings. I still have play in the flippers. I've taken a slow-motion video to show the inconsistencies. I have some new bushings on the way, and I'm excited to see the difference. I'll up date this post after the change.
Video links:
and
half bottom flipper (resized).jpglower flipper (resized).jpgupper playfield flipper (resized).jpgupper right flipper (resized).jpgWhat's happened to all the character insults? Isn't everyone who posts a review a shill?
Must only be the first person to review a product.
You people should be ashamed of your behavior, but the same people just hide behind their keyboards and do it again.
Quoted from punkin:What's happened to all the character insults? Isn't everyone who posts a review a shill?
Must only be the first person to review a product.
You people should be ashamed of your behavior, but the same people just hide behind their keyboards and do it again.
OP and PPP owner chimed in professionally and with extreme courtesy. A little goes a long way in internet-land.
I will wait for improved version to be available as I’ve got multiple pins to buy for.
Quoted from underlord:OP and PPP owner chimed in professionally and with extreme courtesy. A little goes a long way in internet-land.
I will wait for improved version to be available as I’ve got multiple pins to buy for.
No question, but the OP retained extreme curtesy in the face of abhorrent behaviour from some on this thread and they get to go on as if it's business as usual and pretend it never happened. No apology because they have no honour.
Quoted from Lounge:I installed them on my JP since that game isn’t leaving my collection and I wanted to experiment with different flipper angles. I bought the 3 flipper kit but didn’t install the third as there isn’t much benefit from changing the upper flipper imo.
I was considering to put a set on my JP. only other stern i own is Elvira and i don’t think it requires any additional precision. Love the game but if we’re being honest the shots are not tough so if i did it would be merely for the esthetics… anyway i was debating color choices with John (who is very responsive to pm’s btw) and wanted to see what the green option looked like. All sold out before i could decide so now i got some extra time to ponder this lol
Quoted from spspencer:. I didn't bother with the upper playfield because it is already covered in skulls.
Are you saying the skulls flipper tops won't adhere to these flippers? I love those tops!
punkin When did someone appoint you the moral compass of this forum?
You've been frustratingly negative in other threads; I find it odd that you choose to chastise some of us for having opinions that differ than yours.
I'm glad DiabloRush believes in this product. I know
1956PINHEAD appreciates the support.
In General, I stand by my comments. Outside the weird defense I saw the OP take initially; I'm glad that we finally seem to have some closure as to who the OP is vs the owner of the product. Skepticism is a real need in our hobby lately given all the scammers working to steal our money.
If your post wasn't directed at me specifically; then well... sorry for reading more into it than you intended.
How about softer and smoother feeling flipper buttons. I have and still do get blisters sometimes ...
Quoted from Zitt:punkin When did someone appoint you the moral compass of this forum?
You've been frustratingly negative in other threads; I find it odd that you choose to chastise some of us for having opinions that differ than yours.
I'm glad DiabloRush believes in this product. I know 1956PINHEAD appreciates the support.
In General, I stand by my comments. Outside the weird defense I saw the OP take initially; I'm glad that we finally seem to have some closure as to who the OP is vs the owner of the product. Skepticism is a real need in our hobby lately given all the scammers working to steal our money.
If your post wasn't directed at me specifically; then well... sorry for reading more into it than you intended.
I'll get back to this.
When i'm sober.
Quoted from punkin:No question, but the OP retained extreme curtesy in the face of abhorrent behaviour from some on this thread and they get to go on as if it's business as usual and pretend it never happened. No apology because they have no honour.
It’s the way of the world. We read it and move on. Pinside ignore feature if it’s too much. Yes, some folks can make one wonder how humanity made it this far. 
Quoted from underlord:It’s the way of the world. We read it and move on. Pinside ignore feature if it’s too much. Yes, some folks can make one wonder how humanity made it this far.
I think it's important to say something when you see something wrong.
Quoted from Zitt:punkin When did someone appoint you the moral compass of this forum?
You've been frustratingly negative in other threads; I find it odd that you choose to chastise some of us for having opinions that differ than yours.
I'm glad DiabloRush believes in this product. I know 1956PINHEAD appreciates the support.
In General, I stand by my comments. Outside the weird defense I saw the OP take initially; I'm glad that we finally seem to have some closure as to who the OP is vs the owner of the product. Skepticism is a real need in our hobby lately given all the scammers working to steal our money.
If your post wasn't directed at me specifically; then well... sorry for reading more into it than you intended.
If you thought it was directed at you as one of the culprits then it probably was.
I am not talking about morals, but manners. One of the basic building blocks of civilization.
The first post by the OP made it very clear who was who, you didn't need closure. He stated categorically off the bat that he was merely a happy customer with no interest but was repeatably called a liar and a shill by a bunch of people. That's not skepticism, that would be thinking maybe and waiting to see. That's plain rudeness when you call someone a liar.
Anyway that's my last word on it here, if you want to discuss it further message me.
The system may be more precise, less slop. I would be curious if it really matters in a practical way. I know we have some testimony. I also know human reporting is not reliable. It would be really interesting to do some computer assisted testing to hold constant the timing variable and see what affect there is on shot accuracy vs traditional flippers. Like how many shots out of 100 are missed with each flipper type. Makes me think of the thing flipper in TAF. This isn’t a knock on the product, just an intellectual curiosity.
Quoted from jackd104:It would be really interesting to do some computer assisted testing to hold constant the timing variable and see what affect there is on shot accuracy vs traditional flippers.
This exists. The Phantom Flip on MB is exactly this, and quite inconsistent. I’d be most interested to have this system (with bushing) installed on that table precisely for this reason.
And do note, the statement of “less slop” isn’t something I just pulled out of a hat. I measured it, carefully. The difference in wobble at the end shafts is 6x greater on OEM Stern mechs. Videos posted way earlier in this thread if you want source data.
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