(Topic ID: 318895)

Review – Precision Pinball Products CNC Flipper System

By DiabloRush

1 year ago


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  • Latest reply 1 hour ago by 1956PINHEAD
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    There are 2,823 posts in this topic. You are on page 33 of 57.
    #1601 1 year ago

    I had a similar problem with on of mine. I ended up loosening the shaft and rotating it a bit. I think the bat just “fit” tighter when aligned differently, I know it shouldn’t. It now stays in place, before the flipper would work its way forward gradually as I played a game.

    #1602 1 year ago

    1956PINHEAD are you going to be making the Halos in green anytime soon?

    #1603 1 year ago

    No matter where I place the bat or how tight I make the screw, the bat just falls off. Even tried to press it on because I that I might break the screw. Still no puller needed it just falls off.

    #1604 1 year ago
    Quoted from GreenMachine19:

    No matter where I place the bat or how tight I make the screw, the bat just falls off. Even tried to press it on because I that I might break the screw. Still no puller needed it just falls off.

    Both left and right have the same issue?

    #1605 1 year ago
    Quoted from Markharris2000:

    Both left and right have the same issue?

    Yes

    #1606 1 year ago

    I just can’t get them to bite. Also messed up my new flipper rubbers on the metal ball guide.

    #1607 1 year ago

    John uses a special knurled surface on the top part of the shaft, which mechanically 'sticks' into the relatively soft aluminum bat by friction. Take a look inside the bat and see if those surfaces have been worn down. My thought: I suspect that if the bat was slightly loose and you played it for awhile, it may have eroded the inside surface of the bat. (The anodized color would be missing I suspect to confirm this happened).

    John can chime in here with more thoughts.

    #1608 1 year ago
    Quoted from GreenMachine19:

    I just can’t get them to bite.

    When I loosen the screws on the bats they move freely with no need for the removal tool. But, when I crank down that screw on the top they DON'T move. You don't have to worry about breaking that screw, it even says in the instructions to screw it in as hard as you can.

    But, like some have said above, perhaps the texture (nurling?) on the inside of the bat, or on the shaft, has been smoothed out. If that's the case you will need to talk to John (the guy that makes these) about a replacement if it was defective.

    #1609 1 year ago

    How far above the playfield are your bushings? The conical portion of the bat is the same diameter as the outside of the bushing, and if your bushings aren’t above the table, you wouldn’t be able to snug the flippers against the shafts as the “cone” will be too low.

    Check this and your mounting of the bushings. Looks from your pic like this is an AFM? Do you have the Williams version of the bushings? If I recall, these are longer than the Sterns. Could you perhaps have installed Stern bushings and they’re not long enough?

    #1610 1 year ago

    The bushings extend above the playfield otherwise I’d be crushing the bats into the wood. I haven’t played them at all I flipped once and they hung up. I put a cheater on the Allen wrench and still could t get it right enough. I’m at a loss. I’m putting plastics bats back in so I can at least play this weekend. I don’t know how I could get these any tighter, I’m no puss. I feel like I’m going to deform or break this piece or the flipper assembly itself. Aside from using an impact on it. I don’t know what else to do.

    #1611 1 year ago

    That’s just so weird. Perhaps post a picture of the conical portion of the shaft along with the matching surface in the bat. I’ve not heard of this problem; I’ve had no issue getting dozens and dozens of these to tighten easily.

    Another possibility is the threaded hole in the shaft is too shallow? The screw can’t extend enough to tighten against the bat? Very rarely, I get some machine turnings in these threads. Perhaps a bit of turning is stuck in the bottom, preventing the screw from going all the way in?

    This is a 10-32 thread. If you have access to a tap and die set, perhaps consider chasing the threads, and perhaps deepening the cut. Along this line, how far down does the screw go in without a bat attached? Does it go all the way in?

    #1612 1 year ago
    Quoted from GreenMachine19:

    The bushings extend above the playfield otherwise I’d be crushing the bats into the wood. I haven’t played them at all I flipped once and they hung up. I put a cheater on the Allen wrench and still could t get it right enough. I’m at a loss. I’m putting plastics bats back in so I can at least play this weekend. I don’t know how I could get these any tighter, I’m no puss. I feel like I’m going to deform or break this piece or the flipper assembly itself. Aside from using an impact on it. I don’t know what else to do.

    Sometimes the clamps won’t tighten back down on the shafts - they get deformed easily. When I'm reusing the clamps sometimes I have to jam a flat screwdriver in the gap to open it up again so that it can clamp hard enough on the shaft.

    The stock system just sucks, that’s why the keyed clamps were developed.

    #1613 1 year ago

    Not the clamps. The bats are spinning. I gave it one last attempt. I pressed it all together in a vise and then tightened the snot out of the screw. To where I almost rounded it. Same result. 2 or 3 flips and they are hanging up. Sucks too because they are pretty. They just don’t work.

    #1614 1 year ago

    @ GreenMachine19 I've been out all day, I'll give you a call to discuss as this is the first case where someone has had this issue. It might be as DiabloRush stated and the screw is bottoming out and not securing the flipper bats. I'll call in a few minutes.

    @ PinHead50 The answer to that is Yes. Both Purple and Green for the HALO's will be coming into the line-up for 2023

    #1615 1 year ago

    I have a lot of game time on these flippers given my closest location has a bunch of stern LEs with these flippers. I am a tournament player and a collector myself so this is from the player / owner perspective.

    The flippers are snappy and definitely shoot faster then a stern factory flipper. The major thing that bothers me about these flippers is how much it changes gameplay. It is much easier to drop cash / live catch with those flippers. The dead bounces and softer and allow for more ball control. The largest drawback with these flippers is they train bad habits. What I mean is that you can hits shots with these flippers that you can never make on any other game. Example … right ramp on Godzilla is makeable with ease from the upper left flipper. Rush you can backhand the right ramp consistently. As a tournament player this will train your brain on bad habits and bad tendencies.

    For the home use I think this is a great product that can actually help the beginning player learn to how to control the ball and play with more control

    #1616 1 year ago

    1956PINHEAD John, I want tie dye just in case I ever get an Austin Powers

    @ PinHead50 The answer to that is Yes. Both Purple and Green for the HALO's will be coming into the line-up for 2023

    #1617 1 year ago

    I guess I could try and put a 10/32 nut on the screw and grind a couple threads off with my die grinder?

    #1618 1 year ago

    This is the exact reason I think they are awesome! I am a not good, non tournament player!

    Quoted from Fishman54:

    I have a lot of game time on these flippers given my closest location has a bunch of stern LEs with these flippers. I am a tournament player and a collector myself so this is from the player / owner perspective.
    The flippers are snappy and definitely shoot faster then a stern factory flipper. The major thing that bothers me about these flippers is how much it changes gameplay. It is much easier to drop cash / live catch with those flippers. The dead bounces and softer and allow for more ball control. The largest drawback with these flippers is they train bad habits. What I mean is that you can hits shots with these flippers that you can never make on any other game. Example … right ramp on Godzilla is makeable with ease from the upper left flipper. Rush you can backhand the right ramp consistently. As a tournament player this will train your brain on bad habits and bad tendencies.
    For the home use I think this is a great product that can actually help the beginning player learn to how to control the ball and play with more control

    #1619 1 year ago
    Quoted from GreenMachine19:

    I guess I could try and put a 10/32 nut on the screw and grind a couple threads off with my die grinder?

    That would certainly work if you have a grinder. You should still post a pic of the bare shaft and screw to see how far it can be inserted. For comparision, here's what it should look like:

    IMG_0375 (resized).JPGIMG_0375 (resized).JPG
    #1620 1 year ago

    DiabloRush Thanks for posting that photo. If the screw bottoms out as shown in the photo it would most certainly pull against the flipper to seat it onto the shaft. I put a call into GreenMachine19 and left my number for a call back. Those retaining screws are 1/2" in length, 10-32 tap depth in the shaft is .600, almost 5/8" deep.

    Thanks

    #1621 1 year ago

    OSUBuckeye98 Tie Dye, Hmm.., not sure if I can find anoyone who could do that, but you never know. As Austin would say, 'That would look Groovy Baby'

    #1622 1 year ago

    I have been testing the lightning flippers on Godzilla at arcade and feel really confident they would be fit for competitive play. I like the metal bushings too because games that have weak upper flippers or fatigue during long gameplay don’t seem to be as affected when using the metal bushings in testing to date. I think if you are strategic they can be used effectively. My next test is Halo’s to see how they affect gameplay. Can’t wait till they arrive.

    Quoted from Fishman54:

    I have a lot of game time on these flippers given my closest location has a bunch of stern LEs with these flippers. I am a tournament player and a collector myself so this is from the player / owner perspective.
    The flippers are snappy and definitely shoot faster then a stern factory flipper. The major thing that bothers me about these flippers is how much it changes gameplay. It is much easier to drop cash / live catch with those flippers. The dead bounces and softer and allow for more ball control. The largest drawback with these flippers is they train bad habits. What I mean is that you can hits shots with these flippers that you can never make on any other game. Example … right ramp on Godzilla is makeable with ease from the upper left flipper. Rush you can backhand the right ramp consistently. As a tournament player this will train your brain on bad habits and bad tendencies.
    For the home use I think this is a great product that can actually help the beginning player learn to how to control the ball and play with more control

    #1623 1 year ago

    Fishman54 Thank you for offering your perspective. Following this thread over the past few months its been great to read the many responses from players who have installed this flipper system and how they perceive it. I'm aware of the location you make mention of, I think there are around 14 games that have my flipper system installed in them at that location. This was one of the first location operators to install my system back in July of this year and has racked up several thousand games on each machine.

    I'm curious, as a tournament level player have you found the shots to be more consistent and repeatable in the games that you've played with this system installed?

    My objective when bringing this system to market was to provide players with an alternative to what the manufacturers have been installing for some 30+ years, maybe longer? Some could say if it ain't broke don't fix it, and I guess perhaps that could apply here, and that's OK I guess, but I felt we needed better. We've been buying these expensive machines with 30+ year old technology installed as the primary user interface, reminds me of my first car, a Ford Pinto

    I get your point about this system opening up the shot potential that otherwise wouldn't be capable with the plastic parts the manufacturers install. I happen to think this system might open the door to new possibilities in game design and layout by removing those constraints. Oh just think of the possibilities

    #1624 1 year ago
    Quoted from Fishman54:

    I have a lot of game time on these flippers given my closest location has a bunch of stern LEs with these flippers. I am a tournament player and a collector myself so this is from the player / owner perspective.
    The flippers are snappy and definitely shoot faster then a stern factory flipper. The major thing that bothers me about these flippers is how much it changes gameplay. It is much easier to drop cash / live catch with those flippers. The dead bounces and softer and allow for more ball control. The largest drawback with these flippers is they train bad habits. What I mean is that you can hits shots with these flippers that you can never make on any other game. Example … right ramp on Godzilla is makeable with ease from the upper left flipper. Rush you can backhand the right ramp consistently. As a tournament player this will train your brain on bad habits and bad tendencies.
    For the home use I think this is a great product that can actually help the beginning player learn to how to control the ball and play with more control

    I have a lot of time as well on the regular Precision Flippers on Godzilla and a little less time on the Halos on Deadpool. It sounds like they must not have turned down the flipper power at the arcade. I turned my flipper power down to make the strength closer to stock. On Godzilla, I couldn't make the right ramp from the upper flipper with stock flippers (maybe every rare once in a while, but I stopped intentionally going for it) and I tried to duplicate that with the Precision Flippers.

    My reasoning was similar to yours as I didn't want to create "unrealistic" play that couldn't be duplicated with regular flippers.

    I actually don't find it easier to do Drop or Live catches with the Precision Flips. Maybe a little harder, especially with the solids. The timing is a little different, that's for sure, but I can now jump back and forth on my games with Precision Flips and the ones with regular flippers without really any more adjustment than is normal between pins. You adjust accordingly depending on each games flippers and what you can do with them.

    #1625 1 year ago
    Quoted from GreenMachine19:

    Not the clamps. The bats are spinning. I gave it one last attempt. I pressed it all together in a vise and then tightened the snot out of the screw. To where I almost rounded it. Same result. 2 or 3 flips and they are hanging up. Sucks too because they are pretty. They just don’t work.

    Can you post any pics? I'm curious what's going on myself. I have done 5 flippers and had the flippers grab tight without actually having to tighten the screw all that hard.

    The first set I especially played around a bit to get the angles just right and each time I needed the tool to pop the flippers loose.

    #1626 1 year ago
    Quoted from GreenMachine19:

    And I don’t need the puller to remove the bat

    I had this with my last set, luckily they don't move though.

    #1627 1 year ago
    Quoted from 1956PINHEAD:

    Fishman54 Thank you for offering your perspective. Following this thread over the past few months its been great to read the many responses from players who have installed this flipper system and how they perceive it. I'm aware of the location you make mention of, I think there are around 14 games that have my flipper system installed in them at that location. This was one of the first location operators to install my system back in July of this year and has racked up several thousand games on each machine.
    I'm curious, as a tournament level player have you found the shots to be more consistent and repeatable in the games that you've played with this system installed?
    My objective when bringing this system to market was to provide players with an alternative to what the manufacturers have been installing for some 30+ years, maybe longer? Some could say if it ain't broke don't fix it, and I guess perhaps that could apply here, and that's OK I guess, but I felt we needed better. We've been buying these expensive machines with 30+ year old technology installed as the primary user interface, reminds me of my first car, a Ford Pinto
    I get your point about this system opening up the shot potential that otherwise wouldn't be capable with the plastic parts the manufacturers install. I happen to think this system might open the door to new possibilities in game design and layout by removing those constraints. Oh just think of the possibilities

    I definitely think that the shots are more consistent when installed correctly. Not sure if this is a issue at my local place vs other systems but they have a lot of flipper hop making timing very difficult. I think again some of the shots are easier as you can be less precise with aim and still manage to hit the shot. My theory is that the increased speed of the ball off the flipper is causing these shots to be easier. If this system was on every game from the factory I would be a huge fan of it. Since it is not on games from the factory I have to be careful to not completely mess my timing up when playing on these games before a tournament.

    #1628 1 year ago
    Quoted from pins4life33:

    I have been testing the lightning flippers on Godzilla at arcade and feel really confident they would be fit for competitive play. I like the metal bushings too because games that have weak upper flippers or fatigue during long gameplay don’t seem to be as affected when using the metal bushings in testing to date. I think if you are strategic they can be used effectively. My next test is Halo’s to see how they affect gameplay. Can’t wait till they arrive.

    I played lightnings on a Godzilla for a tournament was definitely an adjustment but it played about the same.

    #1629 1 year ago

    It doesn’t appear to be a bottoming out issue.

    #1630 1 year ago

    Forgot to add the pic

    9F502C9B-4D24-4C59-A184-AC16D7ADFB0A (resized).jpeg9F502C9B-4D24-4C59-A184-AC16D7ADFB0A (resized).jpeg
    #1631 1 year ago

    So, I would argue that the improvements from this system WILL make you a better player in the long run, even when using basic plastic flippers. I get why someone might see it as "easy mode" that makes you lazy, or trains you wrong, but that's a misunderstanding of what this system does and how learning actually works. Let's think through this.

    1. How does this system improve accuracy? It's not magic, it's the reduction of tolerance in the mechanisms. There is more "play" in the old flipper system; the metal rod fits more loosely in the plastic bushing, and this "wiggle" introduces a slight, but very real, randomizing effect. This means two things - the "sweet spot" where you hit consistently is slightly smaller (a narrower zone where the randomization of higher tolerance is less likely to effect where the ball goes), and even in the sweet spot, the stars will align and brick you some times. Oh, and sometimes an early or late shot will do the trick will get altered just enough to work when it really shouldn't.

    2. How do you learn and improve accuracy (or anything, really?). Well, you do the same thing repeatedly until you figure out precisely what works. The problem with a system that has randomization built in, however, is that you are getting inconsistent feedback - the "right" answer doesn't always produce the "right" result. This is one reason developing accuracy is really hard - the learning feedback you get is by nature unreliable, meaning you have to learn not just what DOES work, but what SHOULD work.

    So, by this logic the "training" effect of these is really to give you a more accurate idea of what SHOULD work on all flippers, if you minimize the extraneous variable created by high tolerance in the mech. When you step up to any machine - because even three of the same thing will play different - you have to do a quick "relearn." This system creates a better baseline in your brain to clean up the learning feedback you're getting, and should ultimately imately improve your availability to adapt quickly to a new setup.

    As to the added power (also an effect of low tolerance, since less power gets wasted as friction or unintended motion), I get that concern but let's be real - you don't need to be a tourney pro to realize that the shots you can make and how easy you can get up a given ramp varies from setup to setup, and you have to figure that fresh whenever you walk up to a table.

    Oh, and it was implied these were easier for catching/control play. I'm not a tourney master or anything, but I definitely found the solids significantly harder to control - lot more bounce, presumably due to the stiffness vs plastic. That was the one thing I did NOT like. The halos seem pretty close to normal flippers to me - maybe a better player feels more improvement in them than I do, but if anything I'd say they still impart a little extra bounce. Pretty close to plastic from my experience though.

    #1632 1 year ago

    I connected with GreenMachine19 and I'm working with him to resolve the issue he's having. Thanks to all who had posted some possible solutions/recommendations.

    #1633 1 year ago
    Quoted from GreenMachine19:

    No matter where I place the bat or how tight I make the screw, the bat just falls off. Even tried to press it on because I that I might break the screw. Still no puller needed it just falls off.

    I was kind of wondering why a removal tool was included. When you loosen up the screw just a tiny bit the flipper bat flops around. The shaft definitely doesn’t bite into the flipper bat. They tighten enough to play for a while but come loose. I don’t feel that this set of flipper bats / shafts would hold tight under a lot of use. I purchased this set very early on, so maybe the newer ones are better. These are the original model bats and shafts for Stern.

    #1634 1 year ago
    Quoted from Higloss67:

    They tighten enough to play for a while but come loose. I don’t feel that this set of flipper bats / shafts would hold tight under a lot of use.

    I've had the opposite experience. I installed about a half-dozen of the original sets, and they're super-tight. I have to use the removal tool everytime. I've not had a single flipper come loose in over 5 months of pretty heavy usage on a half-dozen games.

    #1635 1 year ago
    Quoted from Higloss67:

    I was kind of wondering why a removal tool was included. When you loosen up the screw just a tiny bit the flipper bat flops around. The shaft definitely doesn’t bite into the flipper bat. They tighten enough to play for a while but come loose. I don’t feel that this set of flipper bats / shafts would hold tight under a lot of use. I purchased this set very early on, so maybe the newer ones are better. These are the original model bats and shafts for Stern.

    Hmmm, that has not been my experience. I have ~1000 plays on my Godzilla with the original early release solid Precision flips and original bushing design. I've had no issues at all with the flippers getting and staying tight using the top flat head screw and they have never come loose. I always needed the tool to remove them when I changed the angles a few times early on.

    #1636 1 year ago
    Quoted from awesome1:

    Hmmm, that has not been my experience. I have ~1000 plays on my Godzilla with the original early release solid Precision flips and original bushing design. I've had no issues at all with the flippers getting and staying tight using the top flat head screw and they have never come loose. I always needed the tool to remove them when I changed the angles a few times early on.

    I had an issue early on and just unseated and rotated the shaft, then locked it into position(was only one flipper) since then not one issue with moving around. I chalked it up to me being cautious on the install. This product is amazing.

    #1637 1 year ago

    That’s really odd, I don’t think I’ve used the removal tool once on any of the flippers..

    Quoted from DiabloRush:

    I've had the opposite experience. I installed about a half-dozen of the original sets, and they're super-tight. I have to use the removal tool everytime. I've not had a single flipper come loose in over 5 months of pretty heavy usage on a half-dozen games.

    #1638 1 year ago

    TWD is getting blinged out today! Well walker is in for some tough love!! These link arm clamps are pretty painless to install, only 7 more pins to go!

    image (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpg
    #1639 1 year ago

    Hi All, been at the flipper factory all day. I've just been reading the posts regarding tightening of the flipper bats. As a point of reference for everyone here's how I go about installing my flipper bats:

    #1 I install the flipper onto the shaft and align it to the angle I want.

    #2 Then while holding the flipper I snug the screw down keeping it aligned. I double check to make sure the flipper is at the angle I want after snugging down the screw.

    #3 Then with the short arm of the wrench inserted all the way into the hex in the screw, I grab the long end of the wrench (same wrench I supply with the kits) and I torque that screw down hard until I cannot turn it anymore, I mean it is as tight as I can get it by hand, it's real tight.

    I've never stripped the hex (as long as the wrench is seated), nor have I had a flipper move or come loose tightening this way. If the flipper isn't tight enough it's going to move upon initial game play, or shortly thereafter due to vibrations etc. So it must be very tight upon initial installation.

    If you tighten the screws very tightly you will most likely find that you will have to use the removal tool for the non-anodized flipper bats. The anodized flipper bats may not need the help of the removal tool as much due to the surface hardness of the anodizing. However, in either case the fine knurls on the shaft will impart small groves into both the non-anodized and anodized bats as well. They will however be much more prominant in the non-anodized version.

    Here's a good way of validating that you have in fact tightened the screws properly. Remove the screw and free the flipper bat from it's shaft. Then place the flipper bat back onto the shaft and turn it very slowly applying a little downward pressure. You should be able to feel the knurl/grooves indexing when slowly turning the flipper on the shaft. If you don't feel this slight indexing (or ratcheting) then most likely you can tighten the screws tighter. The tapper along with the knurl when tightened properly will result in a very strong mechanical joint, but if not tightened enough to impart (or transfer) the small knurls into the cavity of the flipper bat then it wasn't as tight as it should have been upon initial installation.

    I know that perhaps there is some fear of stripping the screws, that is real, but as long as you fully insert the hex wrench into the screw and keep it engaged you shouldn't strip the hex. When I finish torquing those screws my hand will have a small mark left behind by the wrench. Next time you remove a flipper bat make try that little test I mentioned to see if you can feel the indexing or ratching of the knurls when turning the flipper.

    If anyone does have any questions feel free to reach out to me by phone of PM me.

    #1640 1 year ago
    Quoted from DiabloRush:

    I've had the opposite experience. I installed about a half-dozen of the original sets, and they're super-tight. I have to use the removal tool everytime. I've not had a single flipper come loose in over 5 months of pretty heavy usage on a half-dozen games.

    I bought pretty early for gz, have not touched them since I aligned the first day. Still should be hands down mod of the year

    #1641 1 year ago

    You can also use some heavy grit sandpaper on the flipper shafts for a little extra bite.

    #1642 1 year ago

    @ Hayfarmer Thanks for being one of my early customers, and for the kudos on suggesting mod of the year. That would be fantastic if that were to happen.

    I'm thinking of having another friendly and fun contest for a free 3 flipper set with bushings and keyed shaft set-up. The last contest was 'name that flipper bat', I recall you had a few good suggestions on that one!

    I'll most likely announce what the contest will be right after the first of the year.

    #1643 1 year ago
    Quoted from 1956PINHEAD:

    @ Hayfarmer Thanks for being one of my early customers, and for the kudos on suggesting mod of the year. That would be fantastic if that were to happen.
    I'm thinking of having another friendly and fun contest for a free 3 flipper set with bushings and keyed shaft set-up. The last contest was 'name that flipper bat', I recall you had a few good suggestions on that one!
    I'll most likely announce what the contest will be right after the first of the year.

    Has any manufacturer approached you about your system, even if only information gathering?

    #1644 1 year ago

    blueberryjohnson Pinball Brothers has three sets they purchased at the show a couple months ago, I'm sure they are evaluating.

    As for the others, not yet, but I'm certain they know about the product and perhaps keeping watch on the various forum threads. If you were one of them wouldn't you

    #1645 1 year ago

    Hi John thanks man!

    16713375508807630833445838464071 (resized).jpg16713375508807630833445838464071 (resized).jpg
    #1647 1 year ago

    Love this thread, i love the real feedback from real tourney players in the last couple pages.

    We talked all this through in the first few pages and argued it up and down the street. We all had opinions and speculations, but now the real feedback is coming in, and it's all welcomed.

    No shouting down people because they have a different experience, but some cool, solid statements, well explained from some great people and respect for others views.

    Need to go and tighten all mine, i never need the tool, and now i know why.

    #1648 1 year ago
    5472411B-794B-4DC2-B845-4A7B3FDD1674 (resized).jpeg5472411B-794B-4DC2-B845-4A7B3FDD1674 (resized).jpeg
    #1649 1 year ago

    Where's the post with the link to the database? Can we get a key post for that please?

    #1650 1 year ago

    Key post please!
    I thought there were pictures on this? No?

    There are 2,823 posts in this topic. You are on page 33 of 57.

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