Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:Metal doesn't flex like plastic.
This CNC stuff is way better than other CNC stuff
Screws on top are ugly/screws on top look nice
Flipping response improved.
Grease? Fuck it. Just grease it.
If you can afford a pinball machine stop being cheap you can afford these.
Engineers know a lot about seemingly nothing.
Thanks!
Quoted from DiabloRush:The power to drive a motor (or a coil) is not just a function of motor speed. It depends on the resistance of the load. More load = more work needs to be done = more power input from the windings
Key word here.. NEEDS.. which if not provided means less work is done (the plunger moves less). Yes, with the higher load you NEED more power to do the same work, it doesn't mean you GET more power by just increasing the load.
In this situation with slop, the load doesn't increase load - it is a loss of efficiency in the transfer of kinetic energy to the desired rotational force.
Binding would be a different story - where it increases load and the if the voltage is maintained, a higher current will be drawn.
But in the case of slop - it's just the kinetic transfer goes into multiple vectors instead of the single transfer you aspire to.
Quoted from DiabloRush:TL;DR version:
Load matters on a coil. More load, higher power and temperatures. 'cause, physics.
How do I know? Inductive reasoning.
----
detailed and boring version:
What you need to add to this discussion is back EMF generated in the windings due to the mechanical load. If there's greater mechanical resistance to plunger movement, it will generate additional current in the coil via back EMF. So it's not quite accurate to say "the coil was driven the same". Actually, the coil sees higher currents (drive + back EMF) when there's greater resistance in the plunger. The load is said to "induce" a current in the coil (and this effect is also the principle for the common component known as the inductor).
Stated another way, there's no free lunch. Electric motors and coils obey the laws of conservation of energy just like everything else. The power to drive a motor (or a coil) is not just a function of motor speed. It depends on the resistance of the load.*
More load = more work (force x distance) = more power input from the windings. Given that power (the product of voltage x current) into the coils must increase, so too will the heat generation as defined by coil resistance. It just so happens the way nature balances the energy in coils and motors under varying loads is via back EMF. It must be this way, as shown in Maxwell's laws for EM.
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*to cite the dreaded automotive example, this is why an electric car going a constant speed on a flat stretch of road uses less power than the same car at the same speed going uphill. The difference here (at the same motor speed) is the load. Higher load = more power = more current = higher motor (and battery) temperatures.
So basically without the flex of a plastic flipper the mechanical load is increased in a metal flipper due to less physical absorption of mechanical energy so there's more back EMF so the metal flipper bats will actually increase the coil heat rate. LOL this is so dumb.
Quoted from punkin:Thanked him for poking fun at you.
[quoted image]
Actually poking fun at the shill for not being capable of answering direct questions, and replying with googled up jargon.
What direct question did you want answered? I hope you're not referring to me? None of my replies have been "googled". I teach this stuff, often. Not that it matters, but an Engineering Ph.D. (from Berkeley '91) + 35 years experience. My day job is slightly more complex engineered systems.
Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:So basically without the flex of a plastic flipper the mechanical load is increased in a metal flipper due to less physical absorption of mechanical energy so there's more back EMF so the metal flipper bats will actually increase the coil heat rate. LOL this is so dumb.
Nope. Not the reason. It's energy loss. Energy goes somewhere. Either into a desired state (moving the ball) or undesired (flex, slop, resonance, etc.). Less slop = more efficient = less energy for a given amount of ball movement.
Quoted from flynnibus:Key word here.. NEEDS.. which if not provided means less work is done (the plunger moves less). Yes, with the higher load you NEED more power to do the same work, it doesn't mean you GET more power by just increasing the load.
In this situation with slop, the load doesn't increase load - it is a loss of efficiency in the transfer of kinetic energy to the desired rotational force.
Binding would be a different story - where it increases load and the if the voltage is maintained, a higher current will be drawn.
But in the case of slop - it's just the kinetic transfer goes into multiple vectors instead of the single transfer you aspire to.
This is correct. And if the desired end result is a certain velocity of ball movement, then less energy is required in the coil for a system with tighter tolerance and less slop. QED.
Quoted from DiabloRush:What direct question did you want answered? I hope you're not referring to me? None of my replies have been "googled". I teach this stuff, often. Not that it matters, but an Engineering Ph.D. (from Berkeley '91) + 35 years experience. My day job is slightly more complex engineered systems.
Let's try a new question.
Does a standard plastic stock flipper give more back EMF than an aluminum one?
Is so how can it given the plastic flipper flexes and absorbs some mechanical energy reducing the mechanical load?
If the metal flipper with no flex creates more back EMF (which given your description on the matter it should??) how can you say the flipper coils were cooler in Godzilla even though you bumped up the power? Isn't there greater mechanical resistance when a metal bat flips the ball versus plastic?
Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:Let's try a new question.
Sure. Now, the amounts here are small in relation to the total, but still an effect. I'll answer these 1 by 1.
Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:Does a standard plastic stock flipper give more back EMF than an aluminum one?
If that flipper is flexing, then yes. It takes some energy to flex the flipper. This will be pretty small, and second order, but yes. Slightly more. I could give you the relevant equations for elastic energy storage in solids, if you feel you need these.
Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:Is so how can it given the plastic flipper flexes and absorbs some mechanical energy reducing the mechanical load?
Flexing doesn't reduce load. It increases it. It takes energy to flex a material, just as it takes energy to compress a spring.
Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:If the metal flipper with no flex creates more back EMF (which given your description on the matter it should??
It's the opposite of what you state. Lack of flex means LESS energy is wasted in compressing flipper material. More efficient = less energy for a given amount of ball movement.
Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:how can you say the flipper coils were cooler in Godzilla even though you bumped up the power?
GZ is not the system to be talking about here, as I put stronger flipper return springs in that one game (only; no other games needed them). The only reason I bumped power on GZ was to compensate for the stronger return springs. And to be fair, I don't have quantified data from GZ. Only my play testing that showed mildly warm coils to the touch after about 2 hours of play. Note, in all my other games I reduced flipper power to get the same ball power/movement pre-upgrade. These games didn't require stronger flipper return springs (to damp flipper release bounce).
Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:Isn't there greater mechanical resistance when a metal bat flips the ball versus plastic?
No. As a system, the PPP is more efficient. Less slop. Less resonance. It's slightly heavier (not much, about 7 grams). Heavier does require more power and presents a higher load. My testing (need to lower coil power all other variables held constant) suggests that the gains in efficiency from a more precise mechanical design outweighs any extra power needed due to slightly higher mass.
Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:Actually poking fun at the shill for not being capable of answering direct questions, and replying with googled up jargon.
Aaaahhh, you are poking fun at yourself without realising it.
As well as being fucking rude to the OP and calling him a liar and a shill.
He's told you he is qualified and has written books on this shit, but that seems like more hard work than you have ever done, so it's 'googled up shit' because you can't grasp his area of expertise, and despite him saying he is just a customer who wrote a review of a product he liked, you are once again calling him a liar and a 'shill' because, like, who ever heard of someone just being honest, eh?
Quoted from DiabloRush:Sure. Now, the amounts here are small in relation to the total, but still an effect. I'll answer these 1 by 1.
If that flipper is flexing, then yes. It takes some energy to flex the flipper. This will be pretty small, and second order, but yes. Slightly more. I could give you the relevant equations for elastic energy storage in solilds, if you feel you need these.
Flexing doesn't reduce load. It increases it. It takes energy to flex a material, just as it takes energy to compress a spring.
It's the opposite of what you state. Lack of flex means LESS energy is wasted in compressing flipper material. More efficient = less energy for a given amount of ball movement.
GZ is not the system to be talking about here, as I put stronger flipper return springs in that one game (only; no other games needed them). The only reason I bumped power on GZ was to compensate for the stronger return springs. And to be fair, I don't have quantified date from GZ. Only my play testing that showed mildly warm coils after about 2 hours of play. Note, in all my other games I reduced flipper power to get the same ball power/movement pre-upgrade. These games didn't require stronger flipper return springs (to damp flipper release bounce).
No. As a system, the PPP is more efficient. Less slop. Less resonance. It's slightly heavier (not much, about 7 grams). Heavier does require more power and presents a higher load. My testing (need to lower coil power) suggests that the gains in efficiency from a more precise mechanical design outweighs any extra power needed due to slightly higher mass.
Thanks for the direct answers. I'm having trouble understanding how the coil plunger itself isn't stifled more getting pulled into the coil as a stiff metal bat hits the ball versus a plastic one with some flex. Which bring us into the back EMF confusion I have. But with no energy lost in flex you get a snappier hit. But then there the extra mass of the flipper to deal with.
Quoted from punkin:Aaaahhh, you are poking fun at yourself without realising it.
As well as being fucking rude to the OP and calling him a liar and a shill.
He's told you he is qualified and has written books on this shit, but that seems like more hard work than you have ever done, so it's 'googled up shit' because you can't grasp his area of expertise, and despite him saying he is just a customer who wrote a review of a product he liked, you are once again calling him a liar and a 'shill' because, like, who ever heard of someone just being honest, eh?
Man even the internet can kill ya down under!
Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:Thanks for the direct answers. I'm having trouble understanding how the coil plunger itself isn't stifled more getting pulled into the coil as a stiff metal bat hits the ball versus a plastic one with some flex. Which bring us into the back EMF confusion I have. But with no energy lost in flex you get a snappier hit. But then there the extra mass of the flipper to deal with.
Happy to have the dialogue. I looked for a high-speed video of a flipper bat hitting a ball. I couldn't find any. High speed video (thousands frames/s) is a fascinating way to watch dynamic material interactions. The degree of flex and movement in stuff that you think is pretty solid is actually amazing.
As a few examples, look at the super-slo-motion videos here. For the arrow, the oscillation amplitude is over 60 degrees! The golf ball video is pretty impressive, too. Did you know the ball deforms this much? The amount of movement is astounding in high-impulse-load applications with elastic materials. If anyone reading this has a good (5000+ fps) camera, I'd love to see a flipper/ball interaction video.
edit: see below, there is video.
edit: There is some Youtube slo-mo video of flippers. Check this out, at 10:18 or so. Look at all the movement, flexing, and oscilation. This is at 2000 fps. Higher frame rates would show the oscillation in better detail, but you'll get the picture. Your flippers are moving around a lot, especially the slop in the shaft/bushing.
Note how the flipper shaft moves in relation to the bushing at moment the ball contacts the flipper. Several of those impacts show the shaft moving in relation to the bushing over the entire amount of the slop in this system. That's the relative lack-of-precision you have on the OEM system. And this is why the PPP system - with about 6x less slop - feels so much more precise. It's right there in the slo-mo video. This is pretty much definitive evidence of what I (and Joel, and a few others) having been saying about precise flippers for the last several days.
I get it some people want and need to upgrade their machine to look good.
But the consistency and "precision" argument is just that... an opinion.
Come up with a scientific way to measure both (consistency and precision) and publish the results here. Make sure to follow the scientific method and publish your testing strategy.
Without this; Diablo is just pumping a product he claims to have no affiliation with... which based upon his post here makes me suspect his motives / affiliation.
I bought the product. I think the product looks nice... but I personally don't see the value to performance argument. I'm not sure these are going to be more than a flash in the pan.
Quoted from alveolus:But isn’t the flexing of the flipper and shaft consistent? Say you are shooting from a trap. How would it be different from one flip to another if the timing is equal.
I can make repeat shots all the time with standard flippers. If they were wildly inconsistent, I probably wouldn't be able to do that.
I get it. You're skeptical of these flippers, you're capable of evaluating them without actually trying them, and on that basis, can readily conclude these have no added value for you, and probably no value for anyone else, either. Let's bash anyone that differs with that opinion, too, while we're at it. Cool. By all means, don't purchase these. I'm glad my review can help you reach that decision. My review has served its purpose and saved you both time and money! You're welcome.
As for this question, it's a good one. Warning: the answer requires a modicum of engineering knowledge and common sense. You've been warned.
Quoted from alveolus:But isn’t the flexing of the flipper and shaft consistent? Say you are shooting from a trap. How would it be different from one flip to another if the timing is equal.
Great question. You'd think that from the same position, even sloppy flippers would shoot the same shot? Well, that term "same position" is the crux. Flipper mechs have an surprisingly large number of something called "degrees-of-freedom". These are independent variables that effect the structural dynamics of the system. And here's the thing: the ultimate motion of the bat when you activate the coil depends on each one of those variables. Hence, when you say "same position" you have to account for all those variables. If they all aren't the same, then the system is going to respond differently. Just eyeballing the flipper mechs, it looks like there's at least 15 degrees of freedom there. The reasons the same "trapped" shot on a sloppy flipper mech won't shoot exactly the same each time is all those other things are slightly different shot-to-shot.
Quoted from DiabloRush:I get it. You're skeptical of these flippers, you're capable of evaluating them without actually trying them, and on that basis, can readily conclude these have no added value for you, and probably no value for anyone else, either. Let's bash anyone that differs with that opinion, too, while we're at it. Cool. By all means, don't purchase these. I'm glad my review can help you reach that decision. My review has served its purpose and saved you both time and money! You're welcome.
As for this question, it's a good one. Warning: the answer requires a modicum of engineering knowledge and common sense. You've been warned.Great question. You'd think that from the same position, even sloppy flippers would shoot the same shot? Well, that term "same position" is the crux. Flipper mechs have an surprisingly large number of something called "degrees-of-freedom". These are independent variables that effect the structural dynamics of the system. And here's the thing: the ultimate motion of the bat when you activate the coil depends on each one of those variables. Hence, when you say "same position" you have to account for all those variables. If they all aren't the same, then the system is going to respond differently. Just eyeballing the flipper mechs, it looks like there's at least 15 degrees of freedom there. The reasons the same "trapped" shot on a sloppy flipper mech won't shot exactly the same each time is all those other things are slightly different shot-to-shot.
Please define one or more of these variables and explain why they are not reproducible with identical timing.
Quoted from alveolus:Please define one or more of these variables and explain why they are not reproducible with identical timing.
You know what? NO. I'm not going to spoon-feed basic engineering principles ad infinitum here. Any engineer or competant mechanic reading this thread knows exactly what I'm talking about. If you can't bother doing a modicum of research on your own, especially when I give you the applicability and terminology, then you're just outta luck this time. Most of what I'm explaining here is really basic stuff, folks. It isn't controversial. It something you learn in your first year or two in an engineering (or good vocational machinists) program. Maybe you should consider that as a new career option? The jobs are plentiful and the pay is great.
Sorry. I know this is a rant. Maybe after over 100 replies, the majority of which question everything I say, ignore every reasonable explanation, pictures, video, and data I post, and continue to remain comically ignorant of basic principles, I'm at the point of exhausting my patience.
I think anything as long as it is decent quality should be up to the consumer. If your cheap stay with cheap stock parts, or if you like something different like mods go ahead. Your game, your choice. Almost as much bitching as adding cooling fans to flipper coils.
Quoted from Zitt:As I stated, bushings can't and won't provide"precision"... At least not in the way you describe.
Also, what's with the down votes?
A legit, honest review gets a down vote?
Maybe you shouldn't open your reviews with this line if you don't want downvotes "Gonna call bullsh1t on these reviews and on this product."
The OP is obviously pretty bright when it comes to this stuff, to call him bullshit is not what I would call a legit review. He even shows tolerances with proof of his measurements. You also accuse the OP of having a hidden affiliation with the seller, which I have to be honest I suspected at first as well but based on his response that he's a literal expert in this field I think his explanation as to why his answers are so complete should be taken as true.
I will say though that it's lame that the kit doesn't come with the bushings if they are part of what makes the bats so precise.
Quoted from DiabloRush:You know what? NO. I'm not going to spoon-feed basic engineering principles ad infinitum here. Any engineer or competant mechanic reading this thread knows exactly what I'm talking about. If you can't bother doing a modicum of research on your own, especially when I give you the applicability and terminology, then you're just outta luck this time. Most of what I'm explaining here is really basic stuff, folks. It isn't controversial. It something you learn in your first year or two in an engineering (or good vocational machinists) program. Maybe you should consider that as a new career option? The jobs are plentiful and the pay is great.
Sorry. I know this is a rant. Maybe after over 100 replies, the majority of which question everything I say and continue to remain comically ignorant of basic principles, I'm at the point of exhausting my patience.
Well sorry that I was the last straw. I feel it is a valid question.
I am unconvinced that the “precision” has meaningful relevance. To illustrate, take my example of a flip from a trapped ball with exact timing. Common sense tells me that whatever variables induced by the bat/shaft/bushing have a negligible impact on the direction/angle of the resulting shot(negligible in respect to the geometry of a given shot). And for me personally I’m sure that the tolerance is orders of magnitude less than my own timing. The limiting variable is always going to be the player.
I am open to being educated but I would need to see a real world controlled experiment to convince me that there is a meaningful difference.
I genuinely appreciate the OPS input, explanations and review.
Pinside needs more of this and less skepticism. I love to hear from SMEs and enjoy when peoples careers can be applied to pinball.
Thank you DiabloRush
Quoted from Bud:I genuinely appreciate the OPS input, explanations and review.
Pinside needs more of this and less skepticism. I love to hear from SMEs and enjoy when peoples careers can be applied to pinball.
Thank you DiabloRush
Very much agree. This thread is about reviews, I’m interested, but I want to get real world player opinions that have installed the product. I really don’t care if you don’t believe this product is worth the money, that is for me to decide once I’ve seen enough reviews. If you don’t have a review, then shut up and go back on twitter…they have plenty of people just waiting to argue with you! Thanks DiabloRush, your reviews make sense. Hoping more with the product will come on here and tell us what they think.
Quoted from alveolus:I am open to being educated
You can start by watching Joel's Twitch stream. Links posted earlier in this thread. You'll learn quite a bit as he uses these in real time and explains the improvements he sees.
I want to apologize to everyone for losing my patience. That's not the person I want to be. I'll strive to do better.
Quoted from usafstars:Thanks DiabloRush, your reviews make sense. Hoping more with the product will come on here and tell us what they think.
Me too! I'm actually very, very surprised no one else has provided their detailed comments. Other than Joel (Twitch streams), there's been almost no discussion from actual owners (either way, negative or positive). Those reviews will come, fairly quickly I would think.
Quoted from DiabloRush:You can start by watching Joel's Twitch stream. Links posted earlier in this thread. You'll learn quite a bit as he uses these in real time and explains the improvements he sees.
I’ll try to watch the video(no promises) but will still consider any “data” as purely anecdotal.
To pivot a bit, I think that the selling point for these is likely to be more subjective. Ie. how do they feel? Is it a more pleasant tactile experience? But this require people to experience them in person.
Quoted from DiabloRush:I want to apologize to everyone for losing my patience. That's not the person I want to be. I'll strive to do better. I won't erase my prior comments; I'll own up to behaving inappropriately instead.
Me too! I'm actually very, very surprised no one else has provided their detailed comments. Other than Joel (Twitch streams), there's been almost no discussion from actual owners (either way, negative or positive). Those reviews will come, fairly quickly I would think.
I think you have been extremely patient when continually confronted by a level of rudeness that would never be tolerated by anyone in real life, including the ex friends of the people who saw someone calling others names like that.
Thank you, it shows me how to be a better person by hanging out with better people than my self.
Yeah I don’t think its OPs job to convince anyone of anything he’s simply stating his experience. I think they seem cool and would like to try a set eventually. If you think the sane cool, if you are skeptical and don’t think it’ll matter or don’t care then that’s fine. Not sure a complete scientific paper is going to really change peoples mind one way or the other.
Of course the player is always going to be the limiting factor. But you see innovations in every hobby. Can RayDay with normal flippers beat any of us with these of course. The same could be said about a PGA tour pro with department store clubs beating a club pro with the latest clubs. But do people maybe try to get that extra bit of help with with new clubs of course they do.
The shafts need roller bearings pressed onto them and then fixed into what was the metal bushing (now a race) to make them precision.
Other than that, there will still be play in the system and a need for periodic lubrication.
Metal on metal surfaces wear quickly.
The metal shafts in the metal bushing will be ok for awhile, and then end up as sloppy as the original system was.
Then the precision is out the window.
Personally I dont see the need for this gimmick, it seems like a temporary situation that wont age well enough to merit the cost.
Pinball has always been a low cost, medium precision system that has to suffer tons of abuse and still work.
Cheaply rebuilding the flippers and other components, has always been an acceptable method of bringing new life into a worn game.
The key is low cost.
I have read all the posts and watched the video, still not-sold-for-the-price.
But then again, I dont buy most of the silly dolls and mods either...
Quoted from pinballinreno:The shafts need roller bearings pressed onto them and then fixed into what was the metal bushing (now a race) to make them precision.
Other than that, there will still be play in the system and a need for periodic lubrication.
Metal on metal surfaces wear quickly.
The metal shafts in the metal bushing will be ok for awhile, and then end up as sloppy as the original system was.
Then the precision is out the window.
Personally I dont see the need for this gimmick, it seems like a temporary situation that wont age well enough to merit the cost.
Pinball has always been a low cost, medium precision system that has to suffer tons of abuse and still work.
Cheaply rebuilding the flippers and other components, has always been an acceptable method of bringing new life into a worn game.
The key is low cost.
I see your point, but i don't think these are marketed to revolutionize pinball manufacturing. These are leveled at people like me who have one or more 'harley' machines, where we customize, paint, chrome and fabricate one off bits for or buy aftermarket bling for.
I have a couple like that. My Deadpool is shiny and full of bling, it also has flipper bats that were more exe than these if i remember right and they only have pretty lights in them.
Then there's my Tron, which has every mod and bit of bling possible. These are going in that. Blue of course
The only other machine i have that fits the description is Sunset Riders and that may get the second set of these yet. In fact i'm off to place another order now i think about it.
Quoted from punkin:I see your point, but i don't think these are marketed to revolutionize pinball manufacturing. These are leveled at people like me who have one or more 'harley' machines, where we customize, paint, chrome and fabricate one off bits for or buy aftermarket bling for.
I have a couple like that. My Deadpool is shiny and full of bling, it also has flipper bats that were more exe than these if i remember right and they only have pretty lights in them.
Then there's my Tron, which has every mod and bit of bling possible. These are going in that. Blue of course
The only other machine i have that fits the description is Sunset Riders and that may get the second set of these yet. In fact i'm off to place another order now i think about it.
My Dad had an Aspencade that he put thousands into, many thousands lol.
Even gold plated tons of parts.
The bike was never driven, it was a showpiece that won many awards at meets and such.
I used to help him roll it off the covered tailer to an exhibition and help wipe down every spec of dust.
It was his hobby and he had great pride in all the awards and prizes. The bike was never driven, even off the dealer floor.
It was his canvas for his art.
So, I get your point completely!
Quoted from punkin:Thank you, it shows me how to be a better person by hanging out with better people than my self.
Pinside. Providing the ultimate experience of individual enlightenment in your life. But apparently only if there's people who are trollin'
You're welcome? 
Yeah, my Harley itself is not a show bike, but extensively customised. It get's ridden, but not in the rain.
But this is what i meant;
Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:Pinside. Providing the ultimate experience of individual enlightenment in your life. But apparently only if there's people who are trollin'
You're welcome?
I'm sure you're a legend mate. Even if the fan club's a small one.
Quoted from punkin:Yeah, my Harley itself is not a show bike, but extensively customised. It get's ridden, but not in the rain.
Damn. Can you get any cooler.
LTG : )
Quoted from LTG:Damn. Can you get any cooler.
LTG : )
I'm a poser mate. Cool is my thing.
Quoted from punkin:but not in the rain
Thats for f#ck'n sure lol.
Not worth the 10 hours of cleaning for a 20 min ride lol.
Nice collection of bikes! And a nice shiny Deadpool!
After reading all the posts up to this stage, as the designer/manufacturer of this product I felt it appropriate to finally make a post in this thread. Up to this point I wanted to stay away so as not to 'Taint the Water' and let the participants post without my trying to sway, convince, rebut, make sales pitches, argue for or against, taking sides, up vote/down vote, etc, etc, etc.
However, my ethics and morals finally compelled me to post the following as I feel Diablorush has been drug through the muck long enough. I'm not here to pass judgement on anyone, just offer my perspective. As many have stated in these forums pinball is a personal thing to each of us, we buy, play, mod, and tweak to our personal likes. The fact that we all have options makes this hobby even better, way better than when I first started playing pinball 62 years ago! To that I offer the following:
Diablorush was one of the very first customers to purchase this mod and has subsequently purchased several more kits for his games, he has stated this and I'm going on the record to validate it as well. My interaction with the man over the past several weeks has convinced me he possesses a very high level of IQ, intellect, and pretty much all things science. Having personal insight into what makes him tic is best described this way, he thinks and operates at levels in the stratosphere where I consider myself to be at around 10,000 feet. Being in this hobby provides a path for bringing people together; some see it as an opportunity to assassinate someone's character at the expense of forgetting while we all play pinball in the first place, for the enjoyment!
As I see it, I'm lucky that he's in this hobby and has taken a liking to my product. Having someone with his level of knowledge and expertise sharing his personal views is his choice and his alone. I'm certain that some reading this will continue to cast that aside, so be it.
For those who are genuinely interested in this product like any new product it takes time to understand what the masses desire. I've received a lot of positive constructive feedback from many. I intend to make some changes to the way I list and sell the parts; changes will be coming to combine certain parts in packages/kits, and new parts are on the way. This feedback has been valuable in helping me better align to the wants and needs for those who have both purchased the product or at some point may choose to do so in the future.
For everyone, please keep in mind that I could have made all these parts from Titanium, stuck bearings in them, and machined them down to .0005 as well. At some point common sense has to be the driver in the final decesion. Bringing this product to a price point obtainable for most was one of my primary objectives while offering what I felt to be a level of materials and quality above the parts they replace.
Finally, If I ever get the chance to meet any of you in person at one point (show, convention, barcade, etc.) you'll find I'm a pretty easy-going guy that just likes pinball and good tasting beer. Can't we just all get along! I do not intend to continue posting in this forum thread, I've said what I wanted to say.
Thank you,
John
Quoted from DiabloRush:You know what? NO. I'm not going to spoon-feed basic engineering principles ad infinitum here. Any engineer or competant mechanic reading this thread knows exactly what I'm talking about. If you can't bother doing a modicum of research on your own, especially when I give you the applicability and terminology, then you're just outta luck this time. Most of what I'm explaining here is really basic stuff, folks. It isn't controversial. It something you learn in your first year or two in an engineering (or good vocational machinists) program. Maybe you should consider that as a new career option? The jobs are plentiful and the pay is great.
Sorry. I know this is a rant. Maybe after over 100 replies, the majority of which question everything I say, ignore every reasonable explanation, pictures, video, and data I post, and continue to remain comically ignorant of basic principles, I'm at the point of exhausting my patience.
Getting chased off pinside is not a failure, its a badge of honor!
There are always going to be flamers, but I think most here are just expressing healthy skepticism. I appreciate the op’s knowledge and expertise. I just need to see practical evidence of the benefit to justify the op’s claims.
Quoted from alveolus:There are always going to be flamers, but I think most here are just expressing healthy skepticism. I appreciate the op’s knowledge and expertise. I just need to see practical evidence of the benefit to justify the op’s claims.
Only one way to do that if it's of interest to you.
Thanks 1956PINHEAD for taking the risk and trying to innovate. Unfortunately, it's easier to be a loud cynic than create. Agree, we need more folks like
DiabloRush being an early adopter and putting their expertise to work to help make a better community and products. I'm not great at mechanical engineering but I've followed along and learned a bunch from this thread.
Quoted from punkin:Only one way to do that if it's of interest to you.
Unfortunately I don’t make it to many shows and I don’t see these getting installed on location games any time soon. Most likely I will get a set of these just to satisfy my curiosity.
Quoted from alveolus:Unfortunately I don’t make it to many shows and I don’t see these getting installed on location games any time soon. Most likely I will get a set of these just to satisfy my curiosity.
Yes, that was my point, a $100 bet is not a lot of money in pinball. And there is at least two glowing reviews, and nothing negative said by anyone who has actually used them. So a small wager indeed. I have two sets coming and they will both go into machines that will be at Australia's biggest pinball show.
Look out for Tron and Sunset Riders anyone who makes it to Pinfest Newcastle.
Quoted from punkin:Look out for Tron
I dont want to alarm you but I think you may have a snake problem going on!
Quoted from Only_Pinball:I dont want to alarm you but I think you may have a snake problem going on!
3 guys here, they are not a problem.
That's if you don't count the wild ones, they are everywhere here. Just don't fuck with the black or brown ones.
The point is the flipper bat should not be labeled "precision" as they are just bats.
If you want to claim the bats are compatibly with the "precision system" fine.
But they "kit" sold with only flipper bats is not precision.
They look like a nearly identical copy of what has already been out there. It looks like nearly an identical rip-off of the ADPIN system except they aren't adjustable.
All said; I'm glad the aluminum bats are currently available. Hopefully 1956PINHEAD can keep his vendor in line and continue to provide these bats to the interested population.
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Acton, MA
Woolgoolga
Halifax, NS