Woolgoolga
I see a third prize getting awarded here. 
(Topic ID: 318895)
I've been 3d printing my bushings on my project, and ended up boring them out with a drill because the bushing was too small. I had a lot of slack. After looking over the tech here, I decided to 3D print the bushing precisely. It's now nicely snug and works much better. So my question then, if bushing slack on the standard nylon parts is too much, why not just fix the slack instead of changing to aluminum and some other CNC methods?
Flex in the bushing is a contributor to slop. Aluminum is considerably stiffer than the nylon OEM bushings.
Honolulu, HI
1956PINHEAD due you consider the difference between the halo flippers and your conventional line to be merely cosmetic or does it also have an impact on performance? If it's the latter, how would you describe the different performance/functionality?
Quoted from KneeKickLou:Will the HALOGRAPHIC-PROs be offered in a kit with bushings and shafts included?
I've thought about doing that perhaps when I get caught up, could be a couple months out.
Thanks!
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:1956PINHEAD due you consider the difference between the halo flippers and your conventional line to be merely cosmetic or does it also have an impact on performance? If it's the latter, how would you describe the different performance/functionality?
They do have a different feel, they're a little lighter and snappier in response, they have a good feel to them. DiabloRush and I tested across several machines for a few weeks and both came away with the same consensus. Read Post's #'s 437 & 443.
I'm really looking forward to others offering up their impressions as well. I'm shipping the first batch of orders next week, so hopefully we'll all get some other feedback soon.
Thanks,
John
Quoted from 1956PINHEAD:I respect the fact that you're curious. What I will share for those who have knowledge of prodcution type 5 axis CNC machines and how they work is that there are 14 independent tools/cutters used to make a flipper bat, which in turn translates to 13 individual tool/cutter changes during the machining process. Add 5 more cutters and changes to make the HALOGRAPHIC-PRO's.
Yes, it is a curiosity just because watching the magic of how these things are approached is cool. I love seeing even the concepts used for production line methods and the creative ways they tackle what seem like simple tasks but at incredibly high volume with high reliability standards. I appreciate the sensitivity of the topic, but we all love cool behind the scenes too
The seeing the bats in an array like that was really sweet and was a very different approach vs some of my assumptions!
ETA: now that I'm on a computer with a big display, I see the array is just an egg carton holding multiple pieces.. on my mobile it looked like a runner in a grid.. which was twisting my brain!
Quoted from 1956PINHEAD:I'd sure like to see you try them out for yourself. What the heck you might as well right
Nah, don't take my sitting out as right or wrong... just I'm not keen on setting up my games in a way that would significantly alter the play experience vs how they would play elsewhere in league or at events. Call it a little bit of 'purist' and a bit of pragmatism. For play mechanics specifically I'm very much a 'play it like it was intended' type. Just a preference...
So only standard old fashoined rubber only on machines over there for league and events?
Seems weird, we see Titans and Perfect Plays on machines here at shows and tournies, they certainly offer different feel to standard rubber in a way that would be 100 times more than these bats.
Quoted from punkin:So only standard old fashoined rubber only on machines over there for league and events?
Seems weird, we see Titans and Perfect Plays on machines here at shows and tournies, they certainly offer different feel to standard rubber in a way that would be 100 times more than these bats.
[quoted image]
And don't add any extra lighting, that's changing the game too. 
Quoted from Hayfarmer:And don't add any extra lighting, that's changing the game too.
Or extra room lighting.
Don't turn off extra balls, tune the slings to take on the outlanes or anything else that makes games harder for tournies.
Quoted from punkin:So only standard old fashoined rubber only on machines over there for league and events?
Seems weird, we see Titans and Perfect Plays on machines here at shows and tournies, they certainly offer different feel to standard rubber in a way that would be 100 times more than these bats.
[quoted image]
Know why you see Titans/etc? Because the original entries into Improved Rubber (Superbands) proved TOO MUCH OF A DIFFERENCE to play.. leading to later products from companies like Titan trying to not create the bands with the most bounce or bite, but a band that mimics the original rubber play experience but still brought values like durability and style. Some brands play better than others.
And as the reviewers in this thread have stated, most feel a significant change in play in terms of improving their play and consistency. A same concern that was raised back on the second day of the thread and confirmed by multiple reviewers.
Quoted from Hayfarmer:And don't add any extra lighting, that's changing the game too.
Did I say 'change the game'? No I said "---For play mechanics specifically--- I'm very much a 'play it like it was intended' type". You don't play the lights.. and yes, you can ruin play experience with some attrocious examples of lighting too. That doesn't mean all lighting is bad.
Regardless, I explained my preference when addressed - I never volunteered it, or asked you to agree or forced it on you. So play as you see fit and I'll do the same.
Quoted from punkin:See superbands at comps and shows here too, titans and perfect play play way different to rubber, and you are the first person i've ever heard try to wiggle out of that obvious statement.
Your ignorance is not my problem.
Quoted from flynnibus:Your ignorance is not my problem.
You don't have room for more problems. You'd have to take on an assistant to manage them.
Quoted from flynnibus:And as the reviewers in this thread have stated, most feel a significant change in play in terms of improving their play and consistency. A same concern that was raised back on the second day of the thread and confirmed by multiple reviewers.
I'm not a regular tournament player (only because there aren't any tournaments close by around me), but I do think I'm a 'decent' player... take that however you like. 
Since this is a review thread - so far I only have the original Precision flippers (and original style aluminum bushings) on my Godzilla. I am going to try a set of the HALOGRAPHIC-PRO's on my Deadpool as well.
My experience hasn't necessarily been that the aluminum flippers have 'improved my play', actually I may have decreased a little at first but I think that was because I already had 1100 games played on GZ and was 'grooved' into the original timing of the stock flipper setup. Now that I've adjusted I've broken 4 Billion a couple times, just like I did with the original flippers. I'm hopeful to build on that.
On a side note - I did essentially just take a couple weeks off of playing GZ while I concentrated on AIQ for the Stern Worldwide Leaderboard, which I ended up in second place with 5.8B using stock flippers. 
Note: I do use DIY flipper coil fans on all my Stern games.
The main thing I notice is the Precision Flippers feel more powerful and solid. I turned down the flipper power on GZ to better simulate the power of the original flippers as I too don't want to 'cheat'. I think the powerfulness is what others are equating to making them play better. The timing of the shot is a little different because of the solidness and also if using Precision Bushings, the reduction of the slop or play in the flippers.
I'm looking forward to feedback from people who install these in games where the flipper power can't be adjusted. I have a few machines I'll probably do this to in the future and will report back.
I'll also report back after my Deadpool install. I have 5,500+ games played on it, so I'll be doing a full flipper rebuild when I install the HALOGRAPHIC-PRO's.
Regardless of any impact on play - the biggie for me is that these things just look COOL! 
Quoted from awesome1:I'll also report back after my Deadpool install. I have 5,500+ games played on it,
5500 plays if at home.. you're probably a lot better player than you think! Those are some big numbers.
Thx for sharing.
Quoted from flynnibus:5500 plays if at home.. you're probably a lot better player than you think! Those are some big numbers.
Thx for sharing.
Yeah, when work and life allow... I've been know to play A LOT!
I’m going to give these a try. Got my shipping notice today for my order. Going to do JP to test upper flipper accuracy, ACNC to see the effects of slight adjustments on those tight shots, and R&M for that upper loop flipper and to see if there is an improvement to flipper fade. I did order a pair of the Halographics for R&M cuz they seem futuristic and fit the theme. Will report back.
Mississauga, ON
Quoted from Anony:I got mine installed but the ball is hopping off of the flipper when it comes down the inlane. Any advice for fixing this? There's not much wiggle room with the inlane guides.
Which flipper rubber are you using, if it's a tad thicker that might be the issue. Or you can try adjusting in the inlane guide. A couple have reported this and one was thick rubber, the other was the inland guide needing adjustment.
Quoted from flynnibus:5500 plays if at home.. you're probably a lot better player than you think! Those are some big numbers.
Thx for sharing.
I must be a lot better player than i think too. I have the same numbers.
Standard flipper bats on Deadpool, but droop the flipper bats less than 1mm and the game plays wildly differently (like the designer intended). If you lift the bats up .5mm to align with the holes that Stern say should be used does that mean you are cheating and not playing the game as intended? Is Gomez not respecting the Stern instructions and cheating?
Does that ever happen in comp that one machine would have the flipper bats at a slightly different angle at one venue than another?
Makes much more difference on Deadpool than even the recent flipper rebuild that i have done. It means the bottom third of the playfield shoots like buttter and the top third is much harder than with Stern standard.
You are not convincing anyone who uses their brain to observe and learn mate.
Quoted from 1956PINHEAD:Which flipper rubber are you using, if it's a tad thicker that might be the issue. Or you can try adjusting in the inlane guide. A couple have reported this and one was thick rubber, the other was the inland guide needing adjustment.
Just using the standard rubber as far as I know. I'll try adjusting the inlanes and see if I can sort it out.
Quoted from DiabloRush:Titan low-bounce rubber works well on these, and is slightly thinner, FYI.
Are low bounce considered easier than normal ones? Easier to live catch and such?
Meerbusch
Quoted from 1956PINHEAD:Zora I may do that at some point depending on the number of requests coming in for colored versions. It might also be just one or two colors, it really comes down to what you folks want as I move forward with these.
Thanks, John
I would be happy to be able to order the Halographics in gold and/or red and aas a 3 flipper set as well.
Quoted from KneeKickLou:Are low bounce considered easier than normal ones? Easier to live catch and such?
Perhaps a little easier….live catches have a lot of factors to consider.
I got my order yesterday and was very impressed. I've already installed them on two games (GZ and DP). The kit comes with very detailed instructions and even all the tools you need even though neither is probably needed for most of us. I also got the bushings and put a drop of that Zoom Spout oil I use on spinners. First thing I noticed on my first game (GZ) was the more precise flipper feel. Second thing I noticed was it now only takes one rip of the center spinner to defeat Ebirah. I ordered the parts to do 4 more games this morning.
IMG_6450 (resized).jpegThey're definitely snappier and hit harder. On iron maiden I can hit the center target with the right flipper a lot easier now, before it would just barely make it up the ramp. I also had an air ball off the left wireform which is really rare, but that extra speed on the ball made it come off. Definitely need to turn down the power a bit do the glass doesn't take any more abuse.
Going to have to play some more games before I decide if it feels more consistent. I was hoping the loop would be easier to hit consecutively but from the few games I tried, nope, I still suck. Going to need to get over the adjustment period first before that really shows itself though.
Quoted from twenty84:I got my order yesterday and was very impressed. I've already installed them on two games (GZ and DP). The kit comes with very detailed instructions and even all the tools you need even though neither is probably needed for most of us. I also got the bushings and put a drop of that Zoom Spout oil I use on spinners. First thing I noticed on my first game (GZ) was the more precise flipper feel. Second thing I noticed was it now only takes one rip of the center spinner to defeat Ebirah. I ordered the parts to do 4 more games this morning.
[quoted image]
Can't get a better endorsement than that.
Tried one, bought four more immediately.
GoodStuffPunkin
Good news tired of people having to post pass to make it, can’t wait till they get installed!
Quoted from Anony:They're definitely snappier and hit harder. On iron maiden I can hit the center target with the right flipper a lot easier now, before it would just barely make it up the ramp. I also had an air ball off the left wireform which is really rare, but that extra speed on the ball made it come off. Definitely need to turn down the power a bit do the glass doesn't take any more abuse.
Going to have to play some more games before I decide if it feels more consistent. I was hoping the loop would be easier to hit consecutively but from the few games I tried, nope, I still suck. Going to need to get over the adjustment period first before that really shows itself though.
Hope everyone is having a great holiday weekend so far. I just finished machining the first production run of HALOGRAPHIC-PRO's, the CNC's are now powered down. They'll go back to life on Tuesday morning machining bushings, mini-flipper bats, and more standard flipper bats.
In case anyone is curious about which color flipper bats are the most popular here's a run down so far:
#1 Silver, #2 Gold, #3 Red, #4 Green, #5 Black, #6 Blue
I was able to get rid of 90% of the inlane hop by adjusting the inlanes up, it's only a tiny issue when the ball is rolling really slowly. Going to see if I can whip something up on the 3d printer to give a tiny bit more clearance.
And I think I love these flippers. I got 4 million off of my GC record on Iron Maiden in just a few tries once the hop was sorted out. I was hitting both ramps with about 75% accuracy which is huge for me. I haven't been able to get a new high score on Maiden in several months so it felt really great.
Still getting some crazy airballs though, I think I need to turn the power down a bit more and find the sweet spot, but man did it feel good hitting with such accuracy.
EDIT: edited to add some images. definitely need to order a mini flipper in red if I end up ordering for my Metallica machine.
PXL_20220902_211106889 (resized).jpgPXL_20220902_211110262 (resized).jpgPXL_20220902_211114429 (resized).jpgOkay, just installed the Flipper/Bushing 3 x kit in my GnR LE...Holy Friggin Moly!
Seriously, JJP should partner with you IMMEDIATELY @1956PINHEAD! It really makes the game feel entirely different in a great way! This is how GnR was meant to be played.
If you got rid of your GnR because you thought it felt sloppy, too much multiball crowding etc...I urge you to seek out someone with GnR and this system installed. It literally is a new game. The shots are clean and crisp, shoot ...even had fun calling my shots on Slash Solo, which in the current code is an amazing feat.
In no particular order, just random thought on the install and initial playtesting>>
1. I had to set the flipper coil power back to DEFAULTS. Yep, you read that correctly. Default is plenty of power with these flippers and bushings. The game now shoots amazing. None of this floaty garbage, you get serious returns from serious accuracy.
2. Part of making GnR fun is getting balls up the guitar lock and around the orbits during multi-ball to clear the chaos and keep the songs rolling. This system really helps in that task of allowing you to nail the orbits and the guitar lock on the fore and backhand shots.
3. The bushing and shaft tolerances are so tight, it magnified the power in my right flipper and at first I was getting a loud clack on the flip...thought I did something wrong at first...I then inspected the flipper coil and whalla, the thing was way past due for a change. The new system illuminated the fact I was due for a coil stop change. Who would have thought? Changed the coil and loud clack disappeared.
4. These look amazing. Industrial and clean. Actually took off my old flipper toppers in favor of the clean look
5. As mentioned above, I had to remove 3 bolts on the right ramp to be able to insert the shaft through the bushing.
6. Biggest pain was changing the bushings as I had to remove each assembly to get at the locknuts holding the bushing screws
7. Once the shafts were in, aligning the flippers was a breeze. I did have some serious ball hop at first and had to re-align and raise the ball guides on the inlanes as they were sitting too low towards the player and giving too much ball hop on a slow roll.
8. I aligned the flippers with the rubber on using a straightedge across the guides and flipper , then adjusted the guide rail. When done, I had maybe a millimeter of clearance between the straightedge and the flipper rubber with the edge sitting right on the guide rail. This completely got rid of any hop.
9. All the flipper tricks are there, dead stops, live catches, drop catches, post passing...it also make shatzing a little easier due to just a slight bit more control on the flipper tips. Which again makes the orbits and the under the flipper shot easier to repeat also.
10. I did not install a short flipper on the upper playfield, didn't seem necessary and seemed more of a hassle.
11. Going to get them for Star Wars Premium and Walking Dead LE next
20220904_132934 (resized).jpg20220904_132843 (resized).jpg20220904_132854 (resized).jpg20220904_132915 (resized).jpg
Quoted from fooflighter:Okay, just installed the Flipper/Bushing 3 x kit in my GnR LE...Holy Friggin Moly!
Seriously, JJP should partner with you IMMEDIATELY 1956PINHEAD! It really makes the game feel entirely different in a great way! This is how GnR was meant to be played.
If you got rid of your GnR because you thought it felt sloppy, too much multiball crowding etc...I urge you to seek out someone with GnR and this system installed. It literally is a new game. The shots are clean and crisp, shoot ...even had fun calling my shots on Slash Solo, which in the current code is an amazing feat.
In no particular order, just random thought on the install and initial playtesting>>
1. I had to set the flipper coil power back to DEFAULTS. Yep, you read that correctly. Default is plenty of power with these flippers and bushings. The game now shoots amazing. None of this floaty garbage, you get serious returns from serious accuracy.
2. Part of making GnR fun is getting balls up the guitar lock and around the orbits during multi-ball to clear the chaos and keep the songs rolling. This system really helps in that task of allowing you to nail the orbits and the guitar lock on the fore and backhand shots.
3. The bushing and shaft tolerances are so tight, it magnified the power in my right flipper and at first I was getting a loud clack on the flip...thought I did something wrong at first...I then inspected the flipper coil and whalla, the thing was way past due for a change. The new system illuminated the fact I was due for a coil stop change. Who would have thought? Changed the coil and loud clack disappeared.
4. These look amazing. Industrial and clean. Actually took off my old flipper toppers in favor of the clean look
5. As mentioned above, I had to remove 3 bolts on the right ramp to be able to insert the shaft through the bushing.
6. Biggest pain was changing the bushings as I had to remove each assembly to get at the locknuts holding the bushing screws
7. Once the shafts were in, aligning the flippers was a breeze. I did have some serious ball hop at first and had to re-align and raise the ball guides on the inlanes as they were sitting too low towards the player and giving too much ball hop on a slow roll.
8. I aligned the flippers with the rubber on using a straightedge across the guides and flipper , then adjusted the guide rail. When done, I had maybe a millimeter of clearance between the straightedge and the flipper rubber with the edge sitting right on the guide rail. This completely got rid of any hop.
9. All the flipper tricks are there, dead stops, live catches, drop catches, post passing...it also make shatzing a little easier due to just a slight bit more control on the flipper tips. Which again makes the orbits and the under the flipper shot easier to repeat also.
10. I did not install a short flipper on the upper playfield, didn't seem necessary and seemed more of a hassle.
11. Going to get them for Star Wars Premium and Walking Dead LE next
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]
Recently installed on my GNR as well. Also remove the right ramp to get to the third flipper. No ball hop on my right flipper but I do have a little on my left flipper. I'll try your trick to fix it. Thanks.
Quoted from ZoraShinoda:Recently installed on my GNR as well. Also remove the right ramp to get to the third flipper. No ball hop on my right flipper but I do have a little on my left flipper. I'll try your trick to fix it. Thanks.
I had to hold the guide up with a pretty good amount of force as I screwed the posts back down
Quoted from fooflighter:Okay, just installed the Flipper/Bushing 3 x kit in my GnR LE...Holy Friggin Moly!
Seriously, JJP should partner with you IMMEDIATELY 1956PINHEAD! It really makes the game feel entirely different in a great way! This is how GnR was meant to be played.
Thanks for the detailed review. You might consider cross-posting this to the JJP owner’s thread.
On a related note, it’s nice to finally see some substantial independent reviews coming in. Thanks to everyone for taking the time to provide your thoughts. Keep ‘em coming!
I have a request for the community that has these installed. It concerns flipper fade, or rather, the lack of flipper fade with this system. I’d appreciate the thoughts of those that have these installed and have played a few longer sessions (under conditions that might give rise to flipper fade).
After about 6 weeks of use on my various games, I’ve not had flipper fade on any game. Note, I don’t have any aux cooling for the flipper coils on any of my games. If you’ve read my prior comments, you know I turned down the flipper power on these, something that nearly everyone else appears to do. As we discussed at length about a month ago, Precision Flip appears more efficient and hence, they’re more powerful than stock. I had speculated that this system might not suffer from as much fade, and with almost a month and half of testing, I’m still of that opinion.
Has anyone seen fade after installing these and adjusting the power to be stock equivalent? Conversely, have you not seen any fade where you did previously? This is a substantial benefit if it can be confirmed in use. Would be nice to gather some data from the community on this one aspect of performance. Thanks.
Quoted from DiabloRush:Thanks for the detailed review. You might consider cross-posting this to the JJP owner’s thread.
On a related note, it’s nice to finally see some substantial independent reviews coming in. Thanks to everyone for taking the time to provide your thoughts. Keep ‘em coming!
Done!
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-official-jjp-gnr-thread/page/456#post-7119169
Quoted from punkin:GnR would be the one to use as a comparo. It happens in minutes for the left ramp backhand.
Hobbit as well, although it's not that instantaneous. But triggering smaug multiball several times, and after a while you can't make up the ramp anymore unless it's a perfect shot.
My Stern spike systems (Sth and SW) do not seem to suffer as much from flipper fade even with stock flippers, so not sure if it's a valid comparison
Quoted from Ashram56:Hobbit as well, although it's not that instantaneous. But triggering smaug multiball several times, and after a while you can't make up the ramp anymore unless it's a perfect shot.
My Stern spike systems (Sth and SW) do not seem to suffer as much from flipper fade even with stock flippers, so not sure if it's a valid comparison
If you want comparisons go to the Tibetan Breeze threads. The maker has got graphs and comparo charts.
Quoted from punkin:If you want comparisons go to the Tibetan Breeze threads. The maker has got graphs and comparo charts.
For comparisons, yes. For actual performance degradation, maybe not. The highly efficient power transmission with Precision Flip could (potentially) mean that even increased coil resistance doesn’t mean as much fade. We’ve not had much discussion of this here, one of the reasons for my request.
I've actually just started my own little science project on measuring coil temp's. I've been taking some temp data/mapping on a few of my games with the system installed over various durations of game play to try and build some base lines and trends by game type. I also plan to do temp studies on a couple of my games before and after adding my flipper system. I'm going to leave the coil settings to factory defualt at first, then tweak from there based on how the ball reacts off the flippers for that particular game.
DiabloRush and I have been discussing this topic for a couple weeks now and it's got us pretty curious of the outcome. This is in the early stages so it may take a little time to gather enough data and come to some conclusions. More to flollow.
Quoted from punkin:He measures temp over time. It will compare completely as PinMonk has data with and without, so could test positively on the same basis and give temp results at the coils if he was asked.
It won't compare 1 to 1 unless the same person is doing all tests as play style has some influence on temps (moreso on non-Stern Spike machines, due to their superior hold duty cycles), but it will be a pretty good ballpark, even from different testers.
Quoted from PinMonk:It won't compare 1 to 1 unless the same person is doing all tests as play style has some influence on temps (moreso on non-Stern Spike machines, due to their superior hold duty cycles), but it will be a pretty good ballpark, even from different testers.
It will if pinhead sends you a set....
Quoted from punkin:It will if pinhead sends you a set....
Haha! That wasn't the intent of the post! Just pointing out that play style is a variable on the same machine's results.
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