And your association with PPP is what exactly?

You say you bought these kits, where are they listed for sale?

Precision milled aluminum is nice, but metal-on-metal movement and the need for grease is a big red flag to me and potential point of failure. Metal-on-metal movement is pretty much going to be a no-go long-term since they will end up grinding together, especially with the frequency of movement with these particular parts. Plus all the fine dust that will eventually gum up the joint. There's a reason why the only place where grease is used is in a sealed gearbox.

I would be interested to see what the mech looks like after at least 10,000 plays.

I worry about what if the flipper bat breaks, or the flipper base plate comes loose and drops. Either scenario could be a metal flipper bat dragging on the playfield.

Back when plastic flipper bats hat a metal base. Anything that went wrong and you get a big scar on the playfield.

LTG : )

Well; if you're OPing it... sure.
But in these days of clear coat in combination with mainly home use; you should be fine.
If you look at their weird design; you'll see the bat appears to be missing the most of the "lip" of the bat so probably less of a problem.
Seems like these are ALOT pricer than PinballLife's original design.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pbl-aluminum-flipper-bats-long-term-reviews/page/3#post-5976525

58 >> 30

Yeah, this probably wouldn't result in a graceful failure.

Personally, I'm not thrilled with the idea with a new non-standard mech that requires maintenance.

I wouldn't mind so much if something catches on and becomes the "new standard". But very rarely does something go on to supersede the old established standard to become "the new standard". You just end up with a dozen different smaller ideas/products floating around that you have to keep track of (and keep parts stocked for).

Do you have any idea what a pain it is to try to restore an Allied Leisure game these days now that all the commonly replaced NOS parts have dried up? Ugh. You're basically SOL unless you replace the mech with another standard, or wait around hoping someone starts manufacturing replacement parts.

Hasn't there been several attempts at aluminium flipper bats in the past 10 years? I can't say that I recall any of them sticking around long-term.

Yes, you certainly sound like someone who is independent and has no affiliation with these guys at all... :rolleyes:

Where exactly is all this information coming from?

Coil stops and plungers make contact upon impact--that is quite different from rotational or linear motion between two or more parts, such as a flipper bat shaft and bushing.

The point was those are two completely different interactions that aren't worth comparing.

i need some ten thousand dollar rare earth magnets for the coils on these right

Whether it's a sponsored post or not, the world needs more long form writing and critical thinking like this.

Curious if anyone has anyone ever tried using carbon fiber for the flipper bats instead of plastic or aluminum? Might get the best of both worlds, a lightweight but strong flipper bat.

that was an audiophile joke, my obviously unbiased and unpaid shill friend

Maybe, maybe not. But other mechanisms sure do. Pins can get completely covered in coil dust. This all metal mechanism would still have to deal with that. Like I said earlier, it would gum up any lubricant, and once the dust gets inside the mech, it will start grinding.

While I can't say that I've studied ultra-precision metal-on-metal parts operation in a pinball machine, I would want to see at least 10,000 plays first to get an indication of what may happen.

sorry man, was just joking around

To start, the high level of familiarity with the product that nobody has heard about before and offering details that were not on the product page were potentially suspicious.

This isn't about you personally--it's all about the product that you brought to our attention.

What it basically boils down to is this:

1) Does the product do what is claimed?
2) Does it offer any benefits over current products?
3) Does it compromise in any areas compared to current products?
4) Does the product stand up to long-term use?

Maybe, but I can't play it to judge for myself (without buying it, anyway). The best thing to do would be to bring it to shows/events/tournaments and let others have a crack at it too and see what they think.

I would argue that making shots like that which might be impossible on a game with traditional flipper parts on a game designed with traditional flipper parts might not be how the game designer intended it to play.

Essentially, you said they play nice. A lot of mods look nice or operate well for a few games when freshly installed.

The point to most of my comments is that pinball machines are a rough environment for mechs. I would like to see some longer term testing, rather than just a handful of games. Put this mod through its paces. Really beat on it and see how it stands up to the abuse.

While your review serves as an interesting introduction to this new product, it's incomplete.

When a brand new account posts a review that reads like someone trying to justify why the product exists, how it was built, and even tries to justify why the business got started... it does not read like a consumer. It reads like someone pitching. Your post reads like a product intro and data sheet. All this especially when it's a product that is essentially brand new, and barely launched itself (It seems the owner PM'd a bunch of people and made 2-3 posts afterwards).. it's not even listed on his website, just his pinside shop. These are all red flags.

As to the product itself... flippers are obviously a very delicate area of the game as they are the highest point of interaction between the player, and also one of the highest wear parts of the game. It is also an area many manufacturers have tried over and over to re-invent the wheel and real world usage has defeated many of these innovations leading to why we have a common design because it has proven itself over decades as the best middle ground to-date. This is why people are generally skeptical about flipper products.

Personally I'm concerned about the mass of the flipper bats, the lateral forces on the shaft deforming the aluminum bushing, and the suggestion of using lubricant because of the fine metal to metal contact surfaces. Additionally the flipper position is held only by splines into aluminum... in the portion of the game that gets the highest rotational force in the entire game... secured only by friction from a screw subject to high vibration.

This mech is also next to the largest metal dust generators in the game.. suggesting lubrication here is inviting problems.

Changing the mass of the flippers has a significant direct impact on their movement and how it drives the ball. Like superbands before this.. things that maybe be 'better' to the point of interfering with the expected play experience (superbands giving too much bite for instance). They maybe interpreted as modifying the experience so much they basically become like cheats.. or make games too easy.

I never had to study this level of material science in my engineering education - but there are enough concerns for me to be skeptical to the point of "I'd need to see it go through a huge number of cycles first...".

New pinsider or not is not relevant IMO. I was just talking about these to a well known respected pinsider who was unaware of this product.

I was wanting to know more about it and I’m glad you posted about it.

I do believe I’m going to order this and give it a try on my IJ that is about to get restored.

Thanks for the input, I wouldn’t worry about the skeptics. Keep the observations coming, we need more of it.

Told myself after reading the original post, I bet person X and X will be quick repliers and nay-sayers.

OP probably shouldn't have mentioned a "Light amount of lubricant", because I knew someone would latch on to that instantly.

Interesting product and several of us were discussing over here at pinball night on Sat.

great idea. not so great audience.

I’m of two minds about this. On the one hand, an improved design that gives more predictable and consistent performance sounds like a no-brainer. On the other hand, does it remove something from the chaos and chanciness of pinball? Sort of like improved golf technology making some courses too easy.

I have not tried these (yet) but I was thinking a really beefed up supply to the coils and these precision parts could make a huge difference to control and repeatability. Basically get rid of mechanical slop and get rid of electrical slop.

Whether that slop matters will be clear in the experience of it (which I haven't had, but I appreciate the review here). Even assuming it does matter, I'm wondering how much it takes away from the randomness and chaos that is an intrinsic part of the game design and experience.

Edit - (saw previous post right after I hit "post"...what he said

Holy shit. Anyone got a cliff notes version of the original post?

These were discussed in the JP Club thread and, from other members testimonies, proven to be quite a hit.

I thought the same as I was reading your review OP. With that said I do appreciate your effort.

I ordered the product up, will be awhile before I get to try it out though.

Reviewer writes and acts like a concerned party I think that is quite clear. It is however an interesting product that I had seen before this post but the current pricing is outside the range of my desire to buy a better mousetrap. Maybe someday my needs will change and an application will arise…

I ordered a set as I loved pbls flipper bats.
I have concerns with the design of these. The kneruled feature specifically... But we'll see.

with all the skepticism about the OP's role and intentions, i have to point out... a majority of us have collections that exceed $50K in value, if not 6-figures. Anyone can just buy a set for $68, and try them out themselves. if for any reason at all you aren't satisfied, or they don't perform the way you expected, you can either remove them and be out less than $100 on a legit trial run, or probably even sell them for a discount to someone who wants them and would accept used for less. And the best part is you can then debate the OP's review with factual, experienced-based knowledge, instead of speculating why you think it sounds like a failure.

As someone who works with steel & aluminum it's generally avoided using them together as you can have galvanic corrosion issues.

To me this product is really a great design and something that I definitely intend to try out sooner than later. Years ago I bought the original aluminum flippers that were offered by Pinball Life and they were really great. The wimpy plastic flippers we use twist and bend with a minimum of force and most of the time have breaks internally when inspected. The original Pinball Life ones worked great in fast games like AC/DC and Metallica and they definitely made my shots more accurate. Definitely. When I sold those games, I stupidly left the metal flippers in them thinking I could always buy more, but that was not the case.

A while back Pinball Life commissioned some new metal bats and I ordered some. Unfortunately the design was TERRIBLE. The bats were loose on the shafts and they were not hollowed out so they weighed way too much. Pinball Life refunded everyone who ordered and they are done. I ended up pinning my flippers to secure the shaft, so I could use them and test them out. The extra weight didn't affect the shooting of the ball at all, but it did affect the speed at which the return spring brought the flipper bat back down and caused a slight bounce at the bottom. The original metal flippers from PBL were much lighter and DID NOT DO THIS. They played just like regular flipper bats as far as return speed.

So now we come to this new product. First thing I noticed is they are nicely machined to remove any excess metal and keep the weight down. They are completely hollowed out on the bottom side and if you look they are even trimmed off on the bottom to give extra clearance on the playfield and avoid any chance of dragging. I would be buying the bushings at the same time, because the normal nylon bushings also bend a lot. So this new design passed all of my sniff tests when I first saw it and I even sent some questions to the designer which he promptly returned.

For what it is worth, I am also an engineer whose job it is to review new designs and design changes. I definitely have no connection with this company, but I do plan on purchasing these flippers for one or two of my Sterns. After testing them for a few months, I suspect that I will be purchasing them for all my newer games. As mentioned above, these games cost thousands of dollars and the part that controls the ball is a $5 piece of crappy plastic. To make the dreaded cargument, that is like having some old bias ply 78 series tires on a new Corvette.

I would first point out I have no actual experience with these flippers, so my opinion could be different if I did.

1) The normal flippers are designed 'cheap' but they are also well designed. It's actually very tough to beat the nylon bearing / smooth shaft for low friction and long life. For a mechanism that rotates at less than 1 RPM, a slightly sloppy nylon bearing might be the best possible. Large bearing surface, low friction.

2) Low clearances are great for precision things that move fast...but I'm unconvinced a pinball flipper is begging for a tight fitted flipper shaft. See above.

3) Steel on aluminum is unforgivable. Should be on Oilite bronze - cheap, long lasting, and carries its own lube. I've never seen an aluminum bearing provide good long term results unless it's swimming in clean oil.

4) I think a properly spec'd sealed ball bearing would work well, too - but on most pins there is not room for that.

I appreciate the OP taking time to post this and my opinion could be changed if real-world conditions prove the product to be good. But at the moment this seems like a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.

There is certainly lots of lost energy when the shaft has too much play in the bushing. The play is significantly in the plane of force and movement of the ball. It's the main reason we replace nylon bushings (minus full on breaking). So taking out this slop will certainly give more precise movement and more energy.. but the energy gain is offset by the higher rotating mass.

The need to beef up the return springs is a direct reflection on the impact of the higher mass of the flipper bat and to some extent probably the friction of the tight bushing fit.

Replacing the bushing, but not the flipper bat is probably where I'd have the most interest... but I'm still concerned about the beating the bushing would take.

Of course but since we dont know the grades involved its speculation based on known properties of average materials and if they have been treated or not.

I have seen plenty of corrosion issues in the trades between stainless and aluminum so not entirely idle speculation.

Good luck with your sale.

Im an engineer too! Just kidding I'm just an elevator mechanic. For what it's worth I like this design as well. Also I like the old saying in the trade- mechanics fix engineer's mistakes. Time will tell if it applies here.

Nice idea for aftermarket.

Stern and JJP will never use them. They will stick to their $1.53 plastic bats.

As I understand it; you need a liquid/high humidity for corrosion to be an issue.
I wouldn't be expecting my pinball machine to be a source of issues.

I really just want to see what is "justifying" the price tag.

"There is certainly lots of lost energy when the shaft has too much play in the bushing. "

I'm using the terms 'loose' and 'tight' within the confines of what we see in pinball flippers...a few thousandths of an inch either way. But regardless, no energy is lost in a loose fit - only a little motion. Also, my comments are made assuming the nylon bushings are in good shape, not worn out.

That's the problem with tight fits - energy can be lost due to higher friction. Steel running on aluminum needs to be lubricated to minimize friction. A sloppy nylon needs no lube and will be very tough to beat when it comes to low friction. It can be beat....it's just not easy or cheap.

The tight fit does offer the advantage of more precise movement and more repeatable operation. For sure. But I'm not convinced, yet, that it matters much in a pinball flipper. There's far more variation in what your finger does.

Even with brand new nylon bushings there is a good 1/16 or so of wobble in the pivot of the flipper bat. That wobble robs energy applied to accelerating the ball as the bat moves in other directions than parallel to the playfield. It also plays with the bounce in the flipper. The slop also means the ball has the opportunity to move more on the flipper contact point as its being accelerated. This is where the inconsistency comes from. Then add in the flipper flex, etc.

I mean there is certainly areas to target here… I am just not sure thats where i want aftermarket changing game play that much.

I purchased this complete system for my JP. Roughly $160 including shipping for the 3 flipper kit, and 3 bushings. I left the coil strength at 220, which seems to be fine. I have only a few plays on it, about 20, but so far the predictability and timing of the shots have improved. There is less ball bounce and the traps and catches have also improved. It will be interesting to see what kind of dust the tiny amount of lube attracts. Also to see how the flipper bats hold up on the cone shaped shaft.

The nice thing about the system is that you can switch the bushings back to nylon and use the new shafts and bats. Likewise you could use the new bushings and the lighter original bats.
Last but not least is the adjustability of the flipper bat from above the machine. It is nice to be able to tweak them without lifting the playfield each time. Only time will tell if the set screw will be tough enough to last without vibrating loose.

For me, it’s worth a try. If it’s an epic failure than I wasted what amounts to dinner at a nicer restaurant.

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They definitely look slick and will be great to get some feedback on them. Thanks for sharing.