(Topic ID: 123214)

Restoring a Nine Ball


By aKa

5 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 293 posts
  • 18 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by Classic_Stern
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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stn-a382-1.jpg
Big_coil.jpg
Test_switch.png
Coin_door_block.png
Multimeter.jpg
Right flipper assembly.jpg
Left flipper assembly.jpg
fuse_breaker.jpg
Flipper assemblies placement.jpg
Right slingshot switches.jpg
Left slingshot switches.jpg
Flippers assemblies wiring.jpg
Side_rails_pressure.jpg
stn_assembly.jpg
277715-i.jpg
Left_flipper_in_up_position.jpg

There are 293 posts in this topic. You are on page 6 of 6.
#251 4 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

Since yesterday, I lost the GI, both on the playfield and in the backbox. The rest works, including the inserts lights. Everything seems plugged in, no burning on the new connectors. Fuses ok.
Ideas ?

What is the voltage on TP4 of the rectifier board? (remember to put your meter on AC for this measurment)

#252 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

What is the voltage on TP4 of the rectifier board? (remember to put your meter on AC for this measurment)

Hmmm, I'm not sure where I should put my leads ...

#253 4 years ago

One lead to the ground trace along the side of the board, the other to TP4, meter on AC

#254 4 years ago

Yeah, I read 0 on TP4 (various values on the others).

#255 4 years ago

Meter still on AC, do you have voltage on either side of that 20A fuse clip?

#256 4 years ago

So, with still one lead to the ground, I read a voltage only on one side (lower) of the 20A fuse clip.

#257 4 years ago

Fuse is bad, or fuse clips are bad.

#258 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Fuse is bad, or fuse clips are bad.

Is there a way to determine which is the culprit ?
Can a fuse clip go bad all of a sudden ?
On the other hand, there's still resistance on the fuse.

#259 4 years ago

Alright, I take it back, the fuse opened in half when I tried to remove it, so I guess that one's bad ...

#260 4 years ago

There should be no resistance on the fuse.

Your meter should read it like if you touched the leads to each other.

#261 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

There should be no resistance on the fuse.
Your meter should read it like if you touched the leads to each other.

Fluctuating values ? It must have been what I read at a glance and mistook it for a solid resistance value. Anyways, the fuse is properly broken now that I snapped it in half.

Oh man, I cross my fingers now that all my future issues will be fixed with a fuse replacement.

#262 4 years ago

You should just rebuild your entire rectifier board including the fuse holders.

#263 4 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

You should just rebuild your entire rectifier board including the fuse holders.

Getting on it right away !

By the way, I'll put on my will that if I should die of insanity because of this machine, I'll be buried with it. So you guys can forget about your evil schemes to put your hands on my precious Nine Ball. You'll never get it !

#265 4 years ago

I actually already read your guide some time ago vid, and made a few updates on my rectifier board (new header pins and connectors, new varistor, fresh thermal paste). But what I mainly got from the long list of things you advocate to do, is that if that board really gives me trouble, I'll buy a new one.

#266 4 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

But what I mainly got from the long list of things you advocate to do, is that if that board really gives me trouble, I'll buy a new one.

No shame in buying new.

Save the old one, or give it to your local pin tech.

#267 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

No shame in buying new.
Save the old one, or give it to your local pin tech.

I bought new, and my Seawitch got about 2x brighter and super steady. Quite exciting.
-mof

1 month later
#268 4 years ago

Edit : Scrap all that !

#269 4 years ago

I deleted my previous (long) message because in the end, it is a stupid mechanical problem.

The big left target bank fails at pulling up all the targets when most of them are down. But when the playfield is in service position (vertical, slightly upside down), all is fine. Gravity, right ?

I did a thorough cleaning of the mechanism a couple of month ago because it was bathing in soot (from all the coils in there I guess). I believe adding any kind of lubricant inside a pinball machine is not recommended. Besides, all of the moving parts in there are fairly loose.

Any thoughts on that ?

#270 4 years ago

I'll bump the thread with an additional issue (but please have a look at the previous post) :

The pinball throws a ball in the shooter lane while one is already in play. But it does it only once per new ball. If I drain the ball in play and use the given one, the machine won't give me an other one. Then on the next ball, it does it again.

#271 4 years ago

Bump for cool game with weird issues!

#272 4 years ago

Check your trough switches and the 3 ball lock switches in the Ball Lock Lane. The trough switches can be flaky and the lock switches are hard to adjust properly.

Take all the balls out and push all the drop targets up and go into switch test mode. There should be no closed switches. If no switches are closed, take the apron off and test each switch in trough using a ball. If any switch doesn't register, the program can lose track of balls in play.

#273 4 years ago
Quoted from Superchicken:

Check your trough switches and the 3 ball lock switches in the Ball Lock Lane. The trough switches can be flaky and the lock switches are hard to adjust properly.

I spent some time a month ago adjusting the switches to rule out this cause, and they are properly adjusted, as far as I can tell. I didn't dismantle the little block containing the two switches under the central drain hole, but they click fine when balls sit on it, and I assume the inside is well protected from dust.

The other regular switches contacts were dirty and I couldn't clean them with just rubbing paper between the close contacts, so I used my nails to scrap them. Could I have damaged and rendered them unreliable ?

Quoted from Superchicken:

Take all the balls out and push all the drop targets up and go into switch test mode. There should be no closed switches. If no switches are closed, take the apron off and test each switch in trough using a ball. If any switch doesn't register, the program can lose track of balls in play.

I don't get how this test mode works. The manual says that if a switch is closed, it's number will flash on the player score display and remain so until the thing is fixed. Well, when my machine fails at pushing up the left drop targets after pulling them down during the test (see other issue on post #269), letting quite a few switches closed, nothing unusual is notified on the player score display ...

#274 4 years ago

You need to do the tests with the switch test mode running. The display will show only the last switch closed, so you need to test one at a time. Clicks don't count. Also, bang on the playfield and see if any switches register with the movement.

#275 4 years ago
Quoted from Superchicken:

You need to do the tests with the switch test mode running. The display will show only the last switch closed, so you need to test one at a time. Clicks don't count. Also, bang on the playfield and see if any switches register with the movement.

I'll play dumb but I'm not sure I'm following you. The manual doesn't detail how to go specifically into switch test mode. It is implied that after pressing the self-test button, the machine goes into the different modes one after the other. I can attest that there's a mode going on (allegedly the switch test one) after the solenoids test and before it does the solenoids test again. If so, it just goes too fast, as I exit the solenoid test and enter the switch test with all the left bank targets down and their switches closed (because of the other unresolved issue), then back to solenoids test mode 10 seconds later. Or am I missing something ?

It should also be noted again that my self-test button doesn't work and I have to short the J3 pin 1 in order to initiate the self-test.

#276 4 years ago

The test switch is closed 5 times to enter switch test mode.
Test switch.PNG
The test button wire is a straight shot to the MPU. If your J3 Pin 1 connector is good then the fault most likely is in the connector block for the coin door:

Coin door block.PNG

#277 4 years ago
Quoted from Superchicken:

The test switch is closed 5 times to enter switch test mode. The test button wire is a straight shot to the MPU. If your J3 Pin 1 connector is good then the fault most likely is in the connector block for the coin door:
Coin door block.PNG

Can I short 5 times in a row the J3 pin 1 to enter the switch test mode, or do I necessarily have to redo the connector ?

By the way, I AM dumb because it does say in the manual how to enter the switch test mode, as you showed me.

#278 4 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

Can I short 5 times in a row the J3 pin 1 to enter the switch test mode, or do I necessarily have to redo the connector ?
By the way, I AM dumb because it does say in the manual how to enter the switch test mode, as you showed me.

Yes that should work.

#279 4 years ago

I have fixed the "extra" ball issue.

The switch test allowed me to see that the shooter lane switch did not register when I plunged the ball as soon as it is fed into the lane, as I enjoy rapidly shooting the ball just as it arrives in the shooter lane. The machine then give another ball a few seconds later, thinking something prevented the ball to reach the shooter lane.

It was tricky to see the issue since the switch registers if the ball sits just half a second in the lane. I tightened the gap of the switch to be more reactive, but just letting the ball sit in the lane for an instant before plunging will do the trick no matter what.

Thanks Superchicken for your valuable input. Now, if anybody has any idea about the gamebraking problem I detailed in post #269, I'll be glad to hear it, because I assuredly don't know what to do ...

#280 4 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

I have fixed the "extra" ball issue.
The switch test allowed me to see that the shooter lane switch did not register when I plunged the ball as soon as it is fed into the lane, as I enjoy rapidly shooting the ball just as it arrives in the shooter lane. The machine then give another ball a few seconds later, thinking something prevented the ball to reach the shooter lane.
It was tricky to see the issue since the switch registers if the ball sits just half a second in the lane. I tightened the gap of the switch to be more reactive, but just letting the ball sit in the lane for an instant before plunging will do the trick no matter what.
Thanks Superchicken for your valuable input. Now, if anybody has any idea about the gamebraking problem I detailed in post #269, I'll be glad to hear it, because I assuredly don't know what to do ...

This is a common issue with Stern drop targets. The reproduction targets aren't exactly right. To fix it the plunger needs to pull the target up just a little bit higher. To achieve this the plunger on the big coil needs to be shorten slightly. Grind off about an 1/8 inch (3 mm) off of the end. This allows the coil to pull the target higher to set them.

#281 4 years ago
Quoted from Superchicken:

This is a common issue with Stern drop targets. The reproduction targets aren't exactly right. To fix it the plunger needs to pull the target up just a little bit higher. To achieve this the plunger on the big coil needs to be shorten slightly. Grind off about an 1/8 inch (3 mm) off of the end. This allows the coil to pull the target higher to set them.

My targets are originals, as far as I can tell.

Besides, when the bank fails at reseting (when there's 5, 6 or more targets down), the targets don't lift for even a mm. There's just a tremor throughout the targets.

I may have an idea of the cause, but I didn't think much of it because I got the machine like that, and after getting it running, it worked well for a couple of weeks. I probably should have mentioned it earlier, and I realise now it might be a facepalm moment for some, but here we go :

Big coil.jpg

As you can see, there's no sleeve inside the coil, and there's an indent on the coil shaft from the arm of the rod that goes into the shaft. Could it weaken the coil ?

#282 4 years ago

The sleeve is there. The older ones are aluminum. If they are original targets they need to be replaced. The tabs are most likely worn down. Make sure nothing is binding by setting the targets by hand. The coil may be cooked. Take it off and if you can't get the sleeve out, replace the coil and use a new plastic sleeve. The coil may be lock on from fried transistor on the solenoid driver board.

#283 4 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

I have fixed the "extra" ball issue.
The switch test allowed me to see that the shooter lane switch did not register when I plunged the ball as soon as it is fed into the lane, as I enjoy rapidly shooting the ball just as it arrives in the shooter lane. The machine then give another ball a few seconds later, thinking something prevented the ball to reach the shooter lane.
It was tricky to see the issue since the switch registers if the ball sits just half a second in the lane. I tightened the gap of the switch to be more reactive, but just letting the ball sit in the lane for an instant before plunging will do the trick no matter what.
Thanks Superchicken for your valuable input. Now, if anybody has any idea about the gamebraking problem I detailed in post #269, I'll be glad to hear it, because I assuredly don't know what to do ...

Outside of grinding the plunger you also have to shim inside the target bank so the targets sit flush with the field when down or will cause the ball to wear the drop target channel or the ball gets stuck on the channel.

#284 4 years ago
Quoted from Superchicken:

The sleeve is there. The older ones are aluminum. If they are original targets they need to be replaced. The tabs are most likely worn down. Make sure nothing is binding by setting the targets by hand. The coil may be cooked. Take it off and if you can't get the sleeve out, replace the coil and use a new plastic sleeve. The coil may be lock on from fried transistor on the solenoid driver board.

If the coil was cooked or had a bad transistor, it would not work at all. But it works fine and vigorously up until about a couple of targets are left standing up. I'm talking about any combination of targets. There's no worn tab and any target can be pulled up, by the coil or by hand, and sits fine on it's tab.

For example, the bank could start to tremor but not reset when only targets 1 and 4 are still up, or only 2 and 7 still up, or just target 8 still up, but have no issue with any of those targets if three, four, or more targets, in any configuration, are still up.

My thought was that the magnetic field created in the coil is weaker by the damaged sleeve and has a harder time "grabbing" the tip of the rod in that area of the sleeve when the load becomes too important.

#285 4 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

My thought was that the magnetic field created in the coil is weaker by the damaged sleeve and has a harder time "grabbing" the tip of the rod in that area of the sleeve when the load becomes too important.

For sure replace the coil sleeve with a plastic one and then I would look at the driver transistor and predriver on the SDB.

#286 4 years ago

I switched the damaged sleeve with the one that was on one of the smaller targets bank, and it fixed the problem ! Except that now the smaller targets bank is the one having the issue, but now I know what the deal is and I'm kind of relieved. I just have to buy a new sleeve to replace the damaged one.

Stay tuned for the next (inevitable) problem on the same bat-time, same bat-channel !

#287 4 years ago

My parents bought for my birthday 3 month ago a reproduction backglass for my Nine Ball. While the reproduction is rather good, it doesn't have the same colors (darker blue, whites that appear more grey and plain) and in general doesn't fit as well as the original on the machine.

My original backglass lost some paint, especially in the yellows, hence the reason why I wanted a reproduction, but I'm thinking of putting it back, with less lights on the back, in particular where the paint is gone. I'd also like to put lights that produce less heat, to avoid furthering the paint loss (the backglass is not flaking, apart from what is already gone, but I believe heat would not do good).

I know I can put 47 type bulbs instead of the 44, but can I also put leds ? From what I understand, they flicker unless some modification is done to the lamp driver on some card, but is it also the case for the lamps in the backbox ? I'd rather keep it simple.

#288 4 years ago

Yes the controlled lamps in the backbox will flicker, but you're only talking about 7 or 8 bulbs, the rest are GI and LEDs will be fine for those. If you don't have LEDs in any other controlled lamps in the machine you may get away with a few in the backbox with no flicker.

#290 4 years ago

Thanks for the link Superchicken, but I'd rather buy them them in France to avoid insane shipping costs.
This retailer sells a few types (and the coil sleeves I need):
http://www.ecflipp.fr/fr/23-leds?
But he has only the filtered 44 type in stock in white. I believe they'll be fine ...

I may end up making an order from Bay Area Amusement because they're the only one to have the loop bullseye drop target that is missing from my machine, and those damn small rivets I can't seem to find anywhere.. They also sell various leds :
http://bayareaamusements.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=LBL
In case the leds from the french retailer are not the most suited ones, which ones from BAA would better suit the the back of the backglass ?

Yeah, I read this thread yesterday, which prompted me to consider leds for my backglass. I think I won't bother with an adapter for a few bulbs. If leds don't work, I'll put regular incandescent 47 types bulbs in.

#291 4 years ago

The Pinball Resource has the whole target (about 1/4 of the way down the page):
http://www.pbresource.com/special.html

stn-a382-1.jpg

I may end up making an order from Bay Area Amusement because they're the only one to have the loop bullseye drop target that is missing from my machine, and those damn small rivets I can't seem to find anywhere.. They also sell various leds :
http://bayareaamusements.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=LBL

#292 4 years ago
Quoted from Superchicken:

The Pinball Resource has the whole target (about 1/4 of the way down the page):
http://www.pbresource.com/special.html
stn-a382-1.jpg
I may end up making an order from Bay Area Amusement because they're the only one to have the loop bullseye drop target that is missing from my machine, and those damn small rivets I can't seem to find anywhere.. They also sell various leds :
http://bayareaamusements.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=LBL

I think those are too short. Measure up.

#293 4 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

My parents bought for my birthday 3 month ago a reproduction backglass for my Nine Ball. While the reproduction is rather good, it doesn't have the same colors (darker blue, whites that appear more grey and plain) and in general doesn't fit as well as the original on the machine.
My original backglass lost some paint, especially in the yellows, hence the reason why I wanted a reproduction, but I'm thinking of putting it back, with less lights on the back, in particular where the paint is gone. I'd also like to put lights that produce less heat, to avoid furthering the paint loss (the backglass is not flaking, apart from what is already gone, but I believe heat would not do good).
I know I can put 47 type bulbs instead of the 44, but can I also put leds ? From what I understand, they flicker unless some modification is done to the lamp driver on some card, but is it also the case for the lamps in the backbox ? I'd rather keep it simple.

That backglass can be fixed easily. You need to stop the flaking using Triple thick though. I would not use too many LED's. unless they are the more diffused ones. You an use glass paint to fix the yellow.

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