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(Topic ID: 123214)

Restoring a Nine Ball


By aKa

5 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 293 posts
  • 18 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Classic_Stern
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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There have been 43 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

stn-a382-1.jpg
Big_coil.jpg
Test_switch.png
Coin_door_block.png
Multimeter.jpg
Right flipper assembly.jpg
Left flipper assembly.jpg
fuse_breaker.jpg
Flipper assemblies placement.jpg
Right slingshot switches.jpg
Left slingshot switches.jpg
Flippers assemblies wiring.jpg
Side_rails_pressure.jpg
stn_assembly.jpg
277715-i.jpg
Left_flipper_in_up_position.jpg

There are 293 posts in this topic. You are on page 5 of 6.
#201 5 years ago

Obviously, as the Coil Stop and Plungers wear, the range of motion increases.

There have been times that the wrong coil stops are in the kits....

277715-i.jpg

#202 5 years ago

My whole flipper assemblies are brand new, classic stern reproductions from Pinball Life.

#203 5 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

My whole flipper assemblies are brand new, classic stern reproductions from Pinball Life.

You could bend the stop tab towards the coil with a big wrench to limit the flipper range of motion.

After moving it, realign the flipper bats, of course.

#204 5 years ago

Besides, my issue is that I'm starting to get resistance from the rails as the flippers are just reaching horizontal position.

#205 5 years ago

stn_assembly.jpg

#206 5 years ago

You can also try to move the flipper assy. so the bushing that sticks up through the playfield hole is as close to the outhole as you can get it, farthest away from the inlane rail.

I've only installed one Pinball Life flipper assy. and it was in my Quicksilver, which doesn't have as much of the flipper behind the inlane rail. Maybe PBL's holes are aligned a little differently in the base plate. You may need to turn the mech a few degrees and drill new mounting holes to accomplish this.

#207 5 years ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

You can also try to move the flipper assy. so the bushing that sticks up through the playfield hole is as close to the outhole as you can get it, farthest away from the inlane rail.
I've only installed one Pinball Life flipper assy. and it was in my Quicksilver, which doesn't have as much of the flipper behind the inlane rail. Maybe PBL's holes are aligned a little differently in the base plate. You may need to turn the mech a few degrees and drill new mounting holes to accomplish this.

Yeah, I'll try that. Since I was making a neat graphical explanation while you were posting, I'll post it anyways to make sure anyone interested can understand.

Side rails pressure.jpg

#208 5 years ago

Let's take this question to the 9ball forum...
-mof

#209 5 years ago

Pull the flipper bats and take a photo of the playfield holes so we can see where the bushings line up.

#210 5 years ago

Or, **gasp**, put Williams flipper bats in instead.

#211 5 years ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

Pull the flipper bats and take a photo of the playfield holes so we can see where the bushings line up.

Too late, I'm already screwing the assemblies to a better offset position. The brushings were pretty well centered, if already a bit on the lower sides of the holes.

Quoted from vid1900:

Or, **gasp**, put Williams flipper bats in instead.

Burn that heretic !

#212 5 years ago

Alright, the flippers issue is officially solved. I just screwed the assemblies in a way that makes the brushings touch the lower part of their respective holes. It definitely made me notice how the distance between the rails and the holes on each sides are a bit different, making the flippers area not exactly symmetrical. Oh well, that'll do, it's really not that much.

Back to coils and fuses now. Is there a simple way to disconnect a coil to see if it's the source of my troubles, or does it necessarily involve cutting then resoldering ?

#213 5 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

Is there a simple way to disconnect a coil to see if it's the source of my troubles, or does it necessarily involve cutting then resoldering ?

Don't even cut.

Put your soldering iron on the tab, gently pull on the wire just as the solder becomes shiny.

#214 5 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

Yeah, I'll try that. Since I was making a neat graphical explanation while you were posting, I'll post it anyways to make sure anyone interested can understand.
Side rails pressure.jpg

Yea, Nineball has a problem with the metal wire in the wrong spot. The hole where it was drilled. Even on my NOS field this was a problem. You can fill and fix but it is tough because of the right location is right next to the size of the hole. Bend it forward but I would not limit range. All Nineball's I have seen which is probably 15 have this same problem.

#215 5 years ago
Quoted from Classic_Stern:

Yea, Nineball has a problem with the metal wire in the wrong spot. The hole where it was drilled. Even on my NOS field this was a problem. You can fill and fix but it is tough because of the right location is right next to the size of the hole. Bend it forward but I would not limit range. All Nineball's I have seen which is probably 15 have this same problem.

I managed to fine tune the brushing placements and I'm very happy with the result.

#216 5 years ago

Regarding the underplayfield fuse blowing, the plot thickens.

I was wrong about the knocker. It is firing in 3rd position during the self test. It also does later, apart from the main sequence. The thing happening is that when I launch the self test (through the backbox J3 shorting because the coin door test button doesn't work), the first coil (left slingshot) doesn't fire during the first run, but it does in subsequent runs. Go figure ...

I disconnected the loop target coil, and the fuse would blow repeatedly after the bumper coil fires, during the first or second run of the sequence. I disconnected the bumper coil, and the fuse would blow at some other point. I'm running out of fuses again, I guess I should have bought them by the hundreds. They are 1,25 amp slow blow, so no issue with the fuse value itself.

Suggestions ?

#217 5 years ago

You need to make some of these in different amperages:

fuse_breaker.jpg

#218 5 years ago

Might I inquire what it does (how, where, why) ?

#219 5 years ago

That is a blown fuse, soldered to a circuit breaker.

So instead of constantly replacing fuses, you simply reset the circuit breaker button.

Once you fix the fault, you pull the breaker and install the proper fuse.

-

You can get breakers in different amperages, so I usually carry in my kit:

1 - 1 amp

2 - 3 amp

2 - 5 amp

1 -10 amp

1- 20 amp

If the circuit calls for a 7 amp fuse, I of course use a 5 amp . If it needs a 2.5 amp, I use a 1 amp - always choose the next lowest value if you don't have an exact match.

#220 5 years ago

Cheaper than running through boxes of fuses:

https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/products.asp?cat=56

#221 5 years ago

Thanks vid, I'll look into it.

I'm still confused about what makes my fuse blow. Were the loop target coil, the bumper coil and now some other coil all faulty (resistance OK, so diode related maybe) ? Will I have to disconnect every single coil and reconnect them one by one, doing a self-test between each reconnection, or am I dealing with a more general issue with some other part of the machine ?

#222 5 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

.

I'm still confused about what makes my fuse blow.

A fuse blows because too much current is flowing through it.

You can have a bad diode, a flaky diode, a shorted coil, a shorted transistor, a short in the wiring, or a shorted driver chip for the transistor.

A lot of reasons.

-

You will find the problem. But there are different way to approach it.

For instance, let's say you use a piece of wire and ground the tab of the driver transistor, and every time you do the knocker, the fuse blows....

Or lets say every time you start a game, one of the pop bumpers locks on....

Or a diverter grounds out during multiball.....

#223 5 years ago

I'm sure I'll eventually find the source of the problem, but so far my investigations just made things more confusing to me.

I've followed good advices given to me here, read the classic Bally/Stern repair guide and narrowed down the types off issues I might be dealing with, but in the end I'm a bit at loss about the logic of what's going on and what my next course of action should be.

#224 5 years ago

Hi Aka, i'm not a professional but i restored 4 classics sterns , included a Nineball.

Ready to help .

Please , could you summarize again (sorry) the situation.

Does the fuse blow when the J2 connector is connected, or j5 is connected, on the driver board.
Do you have a DMM ?

Let's me inform ; i'm not so far...

Lionel

#225 5 years ago
Quoted from lb45:

Hi Aka, i'm not a professional but i restored 4 classics sterns , included a Nineball.
Ready to help .
Please , could you summarize again (sorry) the situation.
Does the fuse blow when the J2 connector is connected, or j5 is connected, on the driver board.
Do you have a DMM ?
Let's me inform ; i'm not so far...
Lionel

Thanks for your proposition to help. You're not far from me indeed.

To quickly summarize, the underplayfield fuse blows repeatedly in self-test after the 18th coil (loop drop target) is fired. When that coil is disconnected, the fuse blows repeatedly after the 7th coil (bumper) is fired. When that coil is also disconnected, something else blows the fuse. That's were I stopped because of a lack of fresh fuses.

As suggested by vid1900, I ordered a 1A fuse breaker (the fuse under the playfield is 1,25A) which will allow me to perform more tests without worrying about being conservative. I'll post my results when I'm done. I'll see on the occasion about the J2 and J5 connectors.

If anyone has any action to suggest, please do so.

#226 5 years ago

So, I got this fuse breaker to temporarily replace the underplayfield fuse :

http://www.audiophonics.fr/schurter-disjoncteur-rearmable-p-5641.html

It's 1 amp, while the machine calls for a 1,25 amp fuse. I connect the breaker tabs to the playfield tabs with alligator clamps.

But if I activate the loop target coil through the solenoid board, while it will blow a regular fuse, it won't "blow" the fuse breaker. Not very useful to see what's wrong with my machine. Is 1 amp still to high for the fuse breaker. That's the lowest value I could find. Is there a way to prime it ? The top button doesn't click into a primed position, it just has a spring.

#227 5 years ago

Breakers are usually Slo-Blo.

Where you using fast-blo fuses?

#228 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Breakers are usually Slo-Blo.
Where you using fast-blo fuses?

No, Slo-Blo fuses. That would have been a great way to solve all my issues.

#229 5 years ago

Let's have some interesting fun.

Put your meter in AMPERAGE mode. ( you might have to move the leads to the AMP terminals, if your meter uses them)

Remove one leg of the breaker from the fuse clip.

One meter lead on the breaker, the other lead on the un-used clip of the fuse holder (so the meter is completing the circuit).

Now, read how many Amps the circuit is drawing....

#230 5 years ago

If I put my meter on 20mA, it's wildly fluctuating. What should I read ?

#231 5 years ago

20ma is too small.

Put it on 5 or 10 amps.

#232 5 years ago

Alright, with the meter on 10a, when doing the self-test mode, a couple of coils (bumper and loop target) draw sometimes a bit more than 1,25, around 1,5.

#233 5 years ago

When I bought this pinball, there was a 2,5A fuse under the playfield. Even though it clearly says to use a 1,25A fuse, should I just put a 2,5A one back and just be done with this ? Or why not keep using that 1A fuse breaker, it seems to go fine with it.

#234 5 years ago

Using the circuit breaker, play some games.

Feel if any of the coils are hot.

If not, then use the 2 or 2,5A fuse.

There is 43v at the coils, right?

#235 5 years ago

It's a bit late here to play a game (I live in an apartment) so I'll give it a try tomorrow.

Quoted from vid1900:

There is 43v at the coils, right?

That question is a bit cryptic for me, could you please elaborate ?

#236 5 years ago

Sorry about that.

Meter on DC volts, what voltage are you reading with a lead on both coil lugs?

#237 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Sorry about that.
Meter on DC volts, what voltage are you reading with a lead on both coil lugs?

Right, I'll check it tomorrow before testing a few games.

#238 5 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

While I wait for the connectors to arrive, here's a fun mystery. My new shooter assembly seems too short. I believe it's a universal size (7-7/8 inches rod) and I think I installed it correctly, but I miss 2cm.
Shooter rod.jpg
I tossed away the rusty original one, and didn't take pictures of that specific part. Opinions ?

This one should work. You will ultimately want to define/confirm the length you need with the proper barrel spring installed at the handle.
ebay.com link

If you don't find something let me know as I have a few used spares in the length you need. You are looking for one from a 50's or 60's Gottlieb game that had the beehive shooter housing. It is the added depth of the beehive housing that requires the longer shooter rod.

#239 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Meter on DC volts, what voltage are you reading with a lead on both coil lugs?

You'll want the black lead on the cabinet ground braid

#240 5 years ago
Quoted from MikeO:

This one should work. You will ultimately want to define/confirm the length you need with the proper barrel spring installed at the handle.
ebay.com link
If you don't find something let me know as I have a few used spares in the length you need. You are looking for one from a 50's or 60's Gottlieb game that had the beehive shooter housing. It is the added depth of the beehive housing that requires the longer shooter rod.

Your ebay link seems to be expired. Anyways, I DIYed my way through it by extending the rod with a wooden tip inside the rubber tip and some black tape. It's not as bad as it sounds, it works perfectly and it's (almost) unnoticeable.

I thank you for your offer, but I would not ask you to go through the trouble of sending some item oversea. Besides, I'm happy I found a way to use that shiny new rod I bought. It would be a shame to just toss it away.

#241 5 years ago

Voltage test : when I set my meter on V 20, one lead on both coil lugs (any coil), the other on the ground braid, I read 0,22.

What's the diagnosis doctor ?

#242 5 years ago

Set your meter on a higher setting, 50V or higher and test again.

#243 5 years ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

Set your meter on a higher setting, 50V or higher and test again.

Higher on my meter is 200V. I'm not at home right now but I think it read 0 on that setting.

I played a few games, with the fuse breaker, and it went ok (apart from a few things to tweak).
No burning smell.

#244 5 years ago

If you have black lead on ground braid, you should read 43V with red lead on either coil lug.

#245 5 years ago

I get 46V.

#246 5 years ago

That's perfect

#247 5 years ago

5 pages, almost 250 posts, a good chunk of it about endless headaches on coils, diodes, schematics, and in the end I just had to change a fuse (granted, with a bigger one) ? It's as funny as it is sad ...

To be sure I understand it well, those couple of coils that draw 1,5A shouldn't do that, but it doesn't endanger the boards, so it's alright to just slap a 2 or 2,5A fuse under the playfield and forget about the reason why those coils do what they do ?

#248 5 years ago

The problem with a 40 year old piece of commercial equipment, is that you don't know what the 100 other techs that have worked on the game have done to it.

"techs" may have swapped coils, diodes, parts, "stolen" power from other sources in the game, bypassed safety features in the game.....

I've seen where the transformer was incorrectly swapped from another game.

I've seen where someone gathered every broken circuit board they had and put them into a single "project" game for sale.

I've seen where someone sprayed WD40 into every coil, gumming up every moving part on a game.

So, since "we can't see it from here", us internet techs have to be pretty careful in doling out the online advice....better safe than sorry.

#249 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

The problem with a 40 year old piece of commercial equipment, is that you don't know what the 100 other techs that have worked on the game have done to it.
"techs" may have swapped coils, diodes, parts, "stolen" power from other sources in the game, bypassed safety features in the game.....
I've seen where the transformer was incorrectly swapped from another game.
I've seen where someone gathered every broken circuit board they had and put them into a single "project" game for sale.
I've seen where someone sprayed WD40 into every coil, gumming up every moving part on a game.
So, since "we can't see it from here", us internet techs have to be pretty careful in doling out the online advice....better safe than sorry.

Of course I'm not blaming you or any other person that tried to help me on this thread, and you made the correct calls regarding my machine. I'm grateful for all of you and certainly hope you'll keep giving me advices on the few little kinks that are left to fix.

My previous comment was a reflection on the fact that I've seen on this forum so many joking about people selling non-working pinballs and saying it "just needs a new fuse", that I didn't think I would actually end up just having to change a fuse to fix what appeared like a mountain of issues.

In retrospect, it blows my mind that I bought this machine with a 2,5A fuse on it, and promptly changed it to a 1,25A after I started to work on it and got more knowledgeable. By trying to do things right, I created a headache for myself.

Hopefully, we're getting near the end of this thread as I'm sure some of you are starting to get bored or annoyed with my pinball repair adventure ...

1 week later
#250 5 years ago

I'm getting there. I'm still tweaking things to make the pinball play smoothly, but I'm already having a lot of fun.

Since yesterday, I lost the GI, both on the playfield and in the backbox. The rest works, including the inserts lights. Everything seems plugged in, no burning on the new connectors. Fuses ok.
Ideas ?

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There are 293 posts in this topic. You are on page 5 of 6.

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