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(Topic ID: 123214)

Restoring a Nine Ball


By aKa

5 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 293 posts
  • 18 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Classic_Stern
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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There have been 43 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

stn-a382-1.jpg
Big_coil.jpg
Test_switch.png
Coin_door_block.png
Multimeter.jpg
Right flipper assembly.jpg
Left flipper assembly.jpg
fuse_breaker.jpg
Flipper assemblies placement.jpg
Right slingshot switches.jpg
Left slingshot switches.jpg
Flippers assemblies wiring.jpg
Side_rails_pressure.jpg
stn_assembly.jpg
277715-i.jpg
Left_flipper_in_up_position.jpg

There are 293 posts in this topic. You are on page 4 of 6.
#151 5 years ago

The pins could have fallen out. I would align without the rubber, I don't think the pins were tall enough to reach the rubber or they would cut into it with use.

#152 5 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

I can't say I really care about the finish of electronic cards, inside the machine where I'll hardly ever look once I'm done with the work. Then maybe I shouldn't care about a bit of crap or flux excess in the first place. A good thing that I'm really slow and didn't do anything yet ...
On a totally unrelated subject, I've been wondering about the two pinholes below the flippers. There's no pins on my machine, and I don't know if there's supposed to be ones, or if those holes are just there to help align the flippers (if so, with or without the rubbers ?).

the thing about flux buildup (which isnt the case on your board) is that it may hide a solder tail that shorts two pins together. that board looks good though

#153 5 years ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

The pins could have fallen out. I would align without the rubber, I don't think the pins were tall enough to reach the rubber or they would cut into it with use.

But should I make new permanent pins ? I don't believe the flippers need that kind of back support during regular play.

#154 5 years ago

No they're not needed

#155 5 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

On a totally unrelated subject, I've been wondering about the two pinholes below the flippers. There's no pins on my machine, and I don't know if there's supposed to be ones, or if those holes are just there to help align the flippers (if so, with or without the rubbers ?).

Those pins were used to align the flippers.

You want a straight line down the inlane wire guide and transfer the ball to the flipper with the minimum of "hop".

Chances are the correct alignment with the pins is with the rubber on (although this has been known to vary).

Don't even worry about the pins, just use a small straightedge, and make sure the flipper is at the SAME angle as the inlane wire guide.

nine-ball-flipper-pins.jpg
#156 5 years ago

Who put Williams flippers on their classic Stern????

#157 5 years ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

Who put Williams flippers on their classic Stern????

Ted Mottor, who apparently wanted some big ball hop.........lol.

http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1678&picno=31372&zoom=1

#158 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Ted Mottor, who apparently wanted some big ball hop.........lol.

Sacrilege!

#159 5 years ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

I would align without the rubber

Quoted from vid1900:

with the rubber on

As Shakespeare would say : To (rub)be(r), or not to (rub)be(r), that is the question.
Don't worry about it, Hamlet, use a straightedge !

#160 5 years ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

Who put Williams flippers on their classic Stern????

I did in my Seawitch restore. I put lightning flippers on the top two flippers to open up the orbit shots a few milimeters. Highly recommended.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/resto-seawitch-mof-20141015/page/3#post-2029925
-mof

#161 5 years ago

My Nine Ball came with Gottlieb flippers, but I didn't get to try them before I changed the flipper assemblies. I also inadvertently bought Williams flippers and had to buy another set of classic Stern/Bally ones. So I've seen them all, but I'll just keep it as originally intended.

#162 5 years ago

speaking of flippers. I am in the process of restoring an ebd. seawitch, centaur and f2k. Whats the best solution for flippage? I have heard use older flipper parts on the bally's. the linear flipper is not desired. Thats about all i can remember. Well that and steve young would yell at me if I didn't disguise my order somehow.disguise2-0b006540e4514c0c2e3fb0415b59ddceb050a9d5-s300-c85.jpg

Gonna mix in a taf restore too but the question doesn't apply. just wanted to throw it on the end here so you all know how awesome i am...

#163 5 years ago
Quoted from rcbrown316:

just wanted to throw it on the end here so you all know how awesome i am...

Haha....you are awesome.....quite a busy guy!

#164 5 years ago
Quoted from rcbrown316:

speaking of flippers. I am in the process of restoring an ebd. seawitch, centaur and f2k. Whats the best solution for flippage? I have heard use older flipper parts on the bally's. the linear flipper is not desired. Thats about all i can remember. Well that and steve young would yell at me if I didn't disguise my order somehow.disguise2-0b006540e4514c0c2e3fb0415b59ddceb050a9d5-s300-c85.jpg
Gonna mix in a taf restore too but the question doesn't apply. just wanted to throw it on the end here so you all know how awesome i am...

I found it. Of course it was in Vids guide. thanks vid!
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-upgradingrebuilding-flippers/page/11#post-1886126

#165 5 years ago

The header removal from all the boards is slowly but surely driving me mad. The last row resisted all my attempts, despite removing the plastic bits and reflowing the pins with "fresh" solder. I ended up pulling a few pins cold with pliers, only to discover it took the metal pad away with them (top side). How do I fix it ? Maybe the pads under the boards are enough (I know it won't) ?

#166 5 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

The header removal from all the boards is slowly but surely driving me mad. The last row resisted all my attempts, despite removing the plastic bits and reflowing the pins with "fresh" solder. I ended up pulling a few pins cold with pliers, only to discover it took the metal pad away with them (top side). How do I fix it ? Maybe the pads under the boards are enough (I know it won't) ?

not sure if those are double sided board but if you post a pic of your dilemma i might be able to help you

#167 5 years ago

Top side.jpg
Back side.jpg

#168 5 years ago

What are you using for soldering iron and desoldering tool? The pads in the last pic look like they didn't get hot enough.

#169 5 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

Top side.jpg
Back side.jpg

need to see the top side unless doo knows theres no traces up there but I don't see pulled foil in these pics

#170 5 years ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

What are you using for soldering iron and desoldering tool? The pads in the last pic look like they didn't get hot enough.

It's a 30 watts iron with a flat head (I seem to have lost the pointy head). I'm not sure what you mean by desoldering tool. I use desoldering braid if that's what you mean. I didn't remove the excess solder yet on the pads on the second picture, but it's not an issue when the pins are removed. When they're still on, that's another story ...

Quoted from rcbrown316:

need to see the top side unless doo knows theres no traces up there but I don't see pulled foil in these pics

The top side is the first picture (I cut short the pins to remove the plastic casing), and the holes 3 and 4 from the right definitely lost their metallic pads. What you see is a lighter shade of the green whatever-material the board is made of.

#171 5 years ago

The solder wick is what's driving you mad. Do yourself a favor and get one of these.

amazon.com link »

#172 5 years ago

That's funny, I read everywhere people praising soldering braid as the second coming of Jesus, over the solder pump that send solder flying all over your body. Besides, some of those pins will not get their solder to melt, even when trying to put some new solder over it to bond.

#173 5 years ago

I've used desoldering braid. Never again unless it's the only thing available. The only time I've had hot solder fly around and hit me is when I've tried to pull a wire from a coil or lamp socket. Anybody hit with flying solder using a solder pump is not using it right. Completely safe, don't listen to them. A good temperature controlled soldering iron I think would really help too.

#174 5 years ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

A good temperature controlled soldering iron I think would really help too.

Despite the trend I see on this site, I don't have the intention to buy another pinball in the short or medium term, and I don't have the room for it anyways. I could buy a (cheap) 40 watts iron if that is what it takes (tell me if it does), but I don't feel like investing yet some more money on a tool I would not use after that specific work.

I know I'm not making things easy for me, but I'm fed up with throwing the little money I have on this machine. All these little expenses add up and I have to slow it down. I was surprised by how much all those little connectors that I didn't plan to replace at first actually cost me.

#175 5 years ago

Solder Braid or Desoldering Pump is not an either/or situation.

There will be times when either is needed.

#176 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Solder Braid or Desoldering Pump is not an either/or situation.
There will be times when either is needed.

I'll definitely get a desoldering pump. Will a 40 watts iron also help me with those hard to melt solder "volcanoes" around the pins, over my current 30 watts iron ?

What about my metallic pads issue ? Are the ones on the back of the board enough or should they be on both sides to avoid solder to overflow ? If so, is there a simple homemade fix or do I have to buy some specific replacement pads ?

#177 5 years ago

There's nothing connected to those two pads topside so I wouldn't worry about them.

#178 5 years ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

There's nothing connected to those two pads topside so I wouldn't worry about them.

Then I'm very tempted to remove the remaining pins the same way and not worry about ripping those topside pads. In fact I might do it with all the remaining 0.156" header pins I have to replace (the 0.1" ones are way easier to remove by the usual melting way).

I'll still wait for a second opinion though before doing the operation.

#179 5 years ago

There are other pads on the topside that have connections to them so you don't want to just rip them all out. I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but you really need to get the right tools for the job. The solder braid acts like a heat sink and there's no way you will get the solder out of the big ground joints if your iron can't even melt new solder on the existing joints.

These are your options as I see them:
1) Send board(s) out for professional repair
2) Buy replacement board(s)
3) Buy the necessary tools for the job

I know you don't want to invest the money if you're never going to use them again, but you can get a decent temp controlled iron and a desoldering pump for about $70 plus shipping. You can't even get a single board repaired or replaced for that.

#180 5 years ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

These are your options as I see them:
1) Send board(s) out for professional repair
2) Buy replacement board(s)
3) Buy the necessary tools for the job

Option 4: sell me your nine-ball

#181 5 years ago
Quoted from rcbrown316:

Option 4: sell me your nine-ball

Nice try but I put too much work and money on it to sell it now. It is my favourite pinball machine and it's no coincidence that I bought that specific machine. I wouldn't have bothered (myself and my wife) for any other one. I know I'll have to go all the way no matter how tedious it is.

Quoted from dothedoo:

3) Buy the necessary tools for the job

You gave me lots of useful advices since I started this restoration dothedoo, but boy do each one hurt my wallet, and some of my sanity !

#182 5 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

Nice try but I put too much work and money on it to sell it now. It is my favourite pinball machine and it's no coincidence that I bought that specific machine. I wouldn't have bothered (myself and my wife) for any other one. I know I'll have to go all the way no matter how tedious it is.

You gave me lots of useful advices since I started this restoration dothedoo, but boy do each one hurt my wallet, and some of my sanity !

amazon.com link »

amazon.com link »

#183 5 years ago
Quoted from rcbrown316:

amazon.com link »
amazon.com link »

Have you used that desoldering pump? I've used this one and it stinks. amazon.com link »

This style is good and I can personally vouch that it works. amazon.com link »

#184 5 years ago

I was thinking something like this for the soldering station. http://www.parts-express.com/stahl-tools-tcss-temp-controlled-soldering-station-esd-safe--374-200

I like my temp controlled Weller. It's an old one where the temp is controlled by the tip instead of a control on the base. I use 700 degree tips for most board work and step up to 800 degree tips on power supplies where you are removing the larger .156 pins from big copper traces with multiple pins soldered together. I have a couple of 600 degree tips, but I found with board work they didn't melt the solder thoroughly and I risked doing more damage to the board than if I had just used more heat.

#185 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Those pins were used to align the flippers.
You want a straight line down the inlane wire guide and transfer the ball to the flipper with the minimum of "hop".
Chances are the correct alignment with the pins is with the rubber on (although this has been known to vary).
Don't even worry about the pins, just use a small straightedge, and make sure the flipper is at the SAME angle as the inlane wire guide.

nine-ball-flipper-pins.jpg

The pins are used to support the ball when it hits the classic stern flipper mech and bat. It makes it so it does not "push" back on the metal stop piece and jam the flipper. Now I raise them up when I do a rebuild so it does not matter but that was what the pin was for.

#186 5 years ago
Quoted from Classic_Stern:

The pins are used to support the ball when it hits the classic stern flipper mech and bat. It makes it so it does not "push" back on the metal stop piece and jam the flipper. Now I raise them up when I do a rebuild so it does not matter but that was what the pin was for.

Oh, so I should make new one and put them on permanently ? I installed brand new flipper assemblies, but they are classic stern reproduction (from Pinball Life), so they should require the same kind of support.

#187 5 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

Oh, so I should make new one and put them on permanently ? I installed brand new flipper assemblies, but they are classic stern reproduction (from Pinball Life), so they should require the same kind of support.

Yes, But add 2 washers on the stop plate for the link. That will prevent the link from rising above it and jaming. Don't have a picture but will show you later. You can see where the link stops the tolerance is really low. Alittle more downward movement and it jams above the metal. Also the pins help with better action.

#188 5 years ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

Have you used that desoldering pump? I've used this one and it stinks. amazon.com link »
This style is good and I can personally vouch that it works. amazon.com link »

YUP i HAVE THE ONE i SENT THE LINK TO AND IT WORKS FINE. I HAVE GONE THROUGH 9 OR 10 IN MY CAREER AS A TV TECH BACK IN THE 90'S. NORMALLY THE GASKET IN THE SUCTION CHAMBER FAILS BUT FOR 3 BUCKS THIS ONE HAS WORKED GREAT. IF IT FAILS i'LL BUY A NEW ONE

#189 5 years ago

So, I didn't follow any of your recommendations guys. I didn't get a desoldering pump, and the braid did the job just fine. I also just bought a 40 watts iron, and those 10 additional watts were all that I was missing, and things went (rather) smoothly.

I finished those damned connectors, and at point I wondered if this was not a joke you make to newbies like me : "Yeah man, you have to redo ALL the connectors ! "

Anyways, it fixed the odd behaviour, but the machine still seems to have many issues, and not exactly what I reported in this (edited) post earlier. I'll report again after more thorough investigations.

#190 5 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

but the machine still seems to have many issues

for those you will need to replace all the wires in each harness with 16G braided copper wire with black vinyl sleeve

#191 5 years ago

Something blows the underplayfield fuse. When doing the test mode, the 14th solenoid doesn't fire, and the fuse blows after solenoid 17 fires.

The manual says the 14th is the drop target n°6, but it's solenoid fires correctly in 13th position.

It seems the loop drop target (firing in 17th position when in test mode, while the manual says 18th) will also blow the fuse when activating in game.

Both solenoid have correct resistance when tested.

While in game, and when the ball goes in the lock area and all targets are dropped in sequence, the target 6 will sometimes drop with its solenoid firing repeatedly, freezing the game but not blowing the fuse. The fuse will then blow when restarting the game. I don't know what to make of it.

Edit : See later post for an update.

#192 5 years ago
Quoted from rcbrown316:

for those you will need to replace all the wires in each harness with 16G braided copper wire with black vinyl sleeve

Well, if I must ...

Naughty imp ...

#193 5 years ago

While I wait for your suggestions, I have another puzzling issue with the flippers. When they're up (from a starting position aligned with the rails and the pins pressing against the rubbers), their rubbers are pressing hard against the edge of the rails, denting the rubbers and pushing back the flippers when the smaller coils take over at the end-of-stroke, making the flippers jerk between their two coils, which I assume is not good.

After checking various videos of this pinball, I can safely say my flippers can't rest at what would be their normal up resting position. What's wrong ?

#194 5 years ago

An update on the fuse blowing issue :

During test mode, the knocker, which should be activated in 3rd position, is only fired after all the others and not in sequence with the others. That should explain the shift between the manual and what I witness.

The 14th solenoid which is not fired is actually the flipper-enable relay. It works when I hold the two flippers buttons during the sequence. So everything is fine up until the 17th coil is activated (the loop drop target), then the fuse blows. Target 6 coil works during testing, but there's the weird behaviour in-game I described earlier.

Loop target coil has the correct resistance and the corresponding driver transistor on the solenoid board reads OK. Should I cut one end of the coil diode to test it ? Something else ?

#195 5 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

Loop target coil has the correct resistance and the corresponding driver transistor on the solenoid board reads OK. Should I cut one end of the coil diode to test it ? Something else ?

I would just replace the diode.

They can be flaky.

It's the same effort to clip one leg and measure it, as it would be to just replace such a commonly failed component.

#196 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I would just replace the diode.
They can be flaky.
It's the same effort to clip one leg and measure it, as it would be to just replace such a commonly failed component.

With the weekend coming, I probably won't be able to buy a new one before Monday. Is there anything else I should check or is the diode the most probable culprit for the fuse blowing ?

I'm also curious to hear your opinion on my flippers problem.

#197 5 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

I have another puzzling issue with the flippers. When they're up (from a starting position aligned with the rails and the pins pressing against the rubbers), their rubbers are pressing hard against the edge of the rails, denting the rubbers and pushing back the flippers when the smaller coils take over at the end-of-stroke, making the flippers jerk between their two coils, which I assume is not good.

Post a picture with the glass off.

#198 5 years ago

Left flipper in up position.jpg

Maybe it's a matter of fine tuning, but right now it doesn't work at all.

#199 5 years ago

Looks like your coil stops (most likely) or plungers are worn out.

#200 5 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

While I wait for your suggestions, I have another puzzling issue with the flippers. When they're up (from a starting position aligned with the rails and the pins pressing against the rubbers), their rubbers are pressing hard against the edge of the rails, denting the rubbers and pushing back the flippers when the smaller coils take over at the end-of-stroke, making the flippers jerk between their two coils, which I assume is not good.
After checking various videos of this pinball, I can safely say my flippers can't rest at what would be their normal up resting position. What's wrong ?

Had the same issue on my Nine Ball.
There was a pinball party. The show had to go on.
I swiftly cut away the rubber (that was rubbing) and we continued playing. I'll solve it another day.
Note: I have brand new Stern PBL systems in there so the coil stops are NEW.
-mof

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/resto-nine-ball-mof-20150405/page/2#post-2406187

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There are 293 posts in this topic. You are on page 4 of 6.

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