New! Dark mode!

Browsing Pinside at night? Getting tired of all the white? Switch to dark mode using the button in the top right (or CTRL-B)!

(Topic ID: 123214)

Restoring a Nine Ball


By aKa

5 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 293 posts
  • 18 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Classic_Stern
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 43 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

stn-a382-1.jpg
Big_coil.jpg
Test_switch.png
Coin_door_block.png
Multimeter.jpg
Right flipper assembly.jpg
Left flipper assembly.jpg
fuse_breaker.jpg
Flipper assemblies placement.jpg
Right slingshot switches.jpg
Left slingshot switches.jpg
Flippers assemblies wiring.jpg
Side_rails_pressure.jpg
stn_assembly.jpg
277715-i.jpg
Left_flipper_in_up_position.jpg

There are 293 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 6.
#101 5 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

.
...Anyways, there's two coils that are briefly energised during the beeping initialising sequence when I turn on the table. Is it normal or indicative of a problem with these two coils (the big target bank one and the loop drop target one) ? Can it be the cause of the under-playfield fuse blowing ?

On the 3rd beep of the last 5 sequence the loop drop solenoid fires, and then on the last beep I hear another energize, but not sure which one. The drop targets, big target bank reset, does NOT reset during the initialization... that happens after starting a game, so you may have a short between two drivers.

Get the test mode working and it should be easy to confirm that.

#102 5 years ago
Quoted from Sheprd:

Check for a stuck closed switch in the matrix row/columns where the door test switch is... if it does not see the switch close, it's not going into test mode. I had the spinner switch closing on me when I raised the playfield. Also leave the apron off and watch the balls flow down the trough... I had a problem where after a ball or two, the next one would not always roll forward, causing a stuck condition after locking a ball in the left stack area.

Still can't get into test mode. There doesn't seem to be any stuck switch on the door (I assume you mean the ones that are activated when you put a coin).

As for the playfield, I keep it in it's vertical service position because it's a pain in the ass to go back and forth between this position and the playing one. I repainted the cabinet interior sides and it's a manoeuvre that can scratch the paint. So no balls in the game, I just keep the switches closed with my hand to start a game. It works for this so it should work for the test mode (not sure it needs balls anyways).

So, still stuck.

#103 5 years ago

An update : There's a molex on the big 8 drop bank. When I unplug it, I can start a game without blowing the under-playfield fuse. It only disconnects the big bank, but it seems only the loop drop target coil is working, all the others are dead.

#104 5 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

Still can't get into test mode. There doesn't seem to be any stuck switch on the door (I assume you mean the ones that are activated when you put a coin).
As for the playfield, I keep it in it's vertical service position because it's a pain in the ass to go back and forth between this position and the playing one. I repainted the cabinet interior sides and it's a manoeuvre that can scratch the paint. So no balls in the game, I just keep the switches closed with my hand to start a game. It works for this so it should work for the test mode (not sure it needs balls anyways).
So, still stuck.

It seems the test switch is not in the matrix. It has a dedicated line back to the MPU board. Check the switch its self. Those go bad a lot. Here is the circuit diagram for the test circuit:

9-ball-test.JPG
#105 5 years ago

Short J3 pin 1 to ground, see if it goes into self test. If it does, you have a connector/wiring/switch problem. If it doesn't, U10 is probably bad.

#106 5 years ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

Short J3 pin 1 to ground, see if it goes into self test. If it does, you have a connector/wiring/switch problem. If it doesn't, U10 is probably bad.

Stupid question, but how do I do that ? Do I remove the connector and connect the first pin with a wire to the ground ?

#107 5 years ago

Yes, remove connector, power up, touch wire to pin 1 and other end to ground braid.

#108 5 years ago

OK I shorted the pin and the machine went into test mode.

It seemed to me that a few solenoids did not work. Unfortunately, after three passes, the time it took me to start understanding the sequence, the only fuse I had left blew. I'll buy some more tomorrow but for now I'm not too sure what to think.

It seemed number 7 didn't fire up. It's the bumper one. It reads 10 ohms, like the other similar coil (loop target one, which definitely works). What else could be wrong with it and how do I determine the problem ?

I should add that the few times I started the game and before the fuse blew, the big target bank acted wonky, which may have prevented other coils from firing (the loop target one or the two other small drop banks) since the game can only do one thing at a time, but I never saw any other coil fire up (for example the ball kickout hole or slingshots).

If I disconnect the big bank and start a game, the loop target coil is the only one functioning. It may be because the big bank coils precede the other coils except the loop target one. It may also explain why an issue with one of the big bank coils may prevent the rest of the coils from firing up.

#109 5 years ago

Let me share with you some strange discoveries.

Dropping the loop target a couple of time seems to blow the under-playfield fuse. The fuse will also eventually blow when there's a new ball or a new game. I managed to "play" (with the playfield in vertical position) a few games, avoiding the loop target, and the table behaves quite strangely.

Starting a game drops targets 4 and 5 of the big target bank, but the ball kicker doesn't activate. Hitting the bumper drops target 3, but no bump. The slingshots don't sling, but the left one drops target 6 and the right one target 7. On some games, the target 1 coil will fire every 10 seconds. Otherwise, the bank coils work correctly when hitting the targets or hitting the dead bumper or the inlanes when lit.

The two small target banks coils are unresponsive. I noticed that the rightmost target of the right bank doesn't register, but it might have nothing to do with it. The leaf switch is correctly set and the wiring seems fine, but it doesn't register.

I've burned through some fuses but I can still do a couple of self-test on the machine. Would it be informative given the wacky behaviour of the coils ?

#110 5 years ago

Sounds like you need to rebuild MPU connector J4 and possibly SDB J4. A broken connection causes incorrect coils to fire.

#111 5 years ago

Damn it dothedoo ! You could not let that J4 go, you had to make me rebuild it ! Well I'll do it, I hope you're happy.

Can I (temporarily) macgyver my way through it to see if it is indeed the cause of my problems, or do I have to yet again order new stuff and wait some more days to sort it out ?

Can it be the cause of the under-playfield fuse blowing, or is it a separate issue ?

#112 5 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

Can I (temporarily) macgyver my way through it to see if it is indeed the cause of my problems, or do I have to yet again order new stuff and wait some more days to sort it out ?

Not really, no. Maybe you can try sticking paper clips or small nails in the housing to force a connection. May or may not work.

Quoted from aKa:

Can it be the cause of the under-playfield fuse blowing, or is it a separate issue ?

Separate issue. Shorted coil, shorted driver transistor or power shorted under playfield.

#113 5 years ago

I'm sure you can't find this connector anymore. I intend to make an order from Pinballcenter since they have a large catalogue and I may need some coils.

Can I make up a compatible connector with what they have ?
http://www.pinballcenter.eu/catalog/electronics-parts-connectors-c-10_222.html?language=english

#114 5 years ago

You're right, they don't appear to stock what you need. Marco, GPE, Big Daddy all carry them.

#115 5 years ago

It's unfortunately long and expensive to order oversea, even for the tiniest object. I passed on ordering the correct loop drop target plastic from Marco, as it was 3 dollars for the target and 30 dollars for the shipping ...

Can't I salvage the current connector ? Any other way I can explore ?

#116 5 years ago

You can order the IDC connectors and they'll work, most people (myself included) prefer the Molex style. You can reuse your housing, but need new crimp pins which pinballcenter, surprisingly, doesn't carry.

#117 5 years ago

I see "crimpcontacts" on page 3 of their connector section. Is it what you're talking about ?

#119 5 years ago

Not to be too insistent, but aren't those the 0.093" ones ?

#120 5 years ago

Not for the board connectors. You want the pins I listed and these headers, but in .100 size.

http://www.pinballcenter.eu/catalog/connector-header-pin-156-396mm-long-p-6877.html?language=english

#123 5 years ago

They're not kidding with the price of the crimping tool. I'll try to find a cheaper one, or do the work by hand (I'm sure it's tedious). Thanks dothedoo for the directions. Given the number of crimp pins you want me to buy, I presume you imply that I should rebuild all the connectors ...

#124 5 years ago

Now regarding the coils situation, is the test mode reliable to determine coil malfunction with (presumably) the J4 connector jumbling things ?

#125 5 years ago

hi fellow frenchman,
dothedoo is right , just rebuild all your MPU connectors, it sure is a pain but nothing compared to the the hours spent troubleshooting the bizarre behaviours induced .

you always gain in the end by bulletproofing connectors.

good luck

#126 5 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

Now regarding the coils situation, is the test mode reliable to determine coil malfunction with (presumably) the J4 connector jumbling things ?

Yes, if any coils fire more than once during one cycle of the test, there is definitely a problem with J4.

#127 5 years ago

Yeah, the big target bank coils fire several times during the test, so J4 seems to be the culprit. I'll rebuild the connectors, but is it necessary to also rebuild the headers on the boards ? They look really fine ...

During the test, the fuse blows consistently right after the loop target coil is activated (it's the last one, since there isn't the coin door coil mentioned in the manual). That coil's resistance is normal, so what should I look for ?

#128 5 years ago

The ribbon cable that goes from the mpu board to the sound board also needs to be repined. I'm sure you need other specific crimp pins and tools to to so. Can I replace it with 0.1" molex connectors and a bunch of wires, since I'll be doing the other ones and have the tools and supplies ?

#129 5 years ago

Yes, I have made new cables that way.

#130 5 years ago

While I wait for the connectors to arrive, here's a fun mystery. My new shooter assembly seems too short. I believe it's a universal size (7-7/8 inches rod) and I think I installed it correctly, but I miss 2cm.
Shooter rod.jpg
I tossed away the rusty original one, and didn't take pictures of that specific part. Opinions ?

#131 5 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

While I wait for the connectors to arrive, here's a fun mystery. My new shooter assembly seems too short. I believe it's a universal size (7-7/8 inches rod) and I think I installed it correctly, but I miss 2cm.
Shooter rod.jpg (Click image to enlarge)
I tossed away the rusty original one, and didn't take pictures of that specific part. Opinions ?

i did the same thing on my seawitch. the rod was about 1/4 inch longer so I derusted it and buffed it. hopefully you can find the old one

#132 5 years ago

Oh boy ... Well I threw the original away a few weeks ago, so there's no chance to get that one back. As far as I can tell, no retailer is carrying it.

You say 1/4 inch, but I need at least 3/4 additional inch. I could remove the small spring in front of the beehive, but the knob would bang against it.

I feel a bit bad about it. It was stupid of me to not match the two rods ...

#133 5 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

Oh boy ... Well I threw the original away a few weeks ago, so there's no chance to get that one back. As far as I can tell, no retailer is carrying it.
You say 1/4 inch, but I need at least 3/4 additional inch. I could remove the small spring in front of the beehive, but the knob would bang against it.
I feel a bit bad about it. It was stupid of me to not match the two rods ...

1st lesson in restoring a classic stern. Never ever throw away any of the used parts until the restoration is complete. You just cannot get original parts that are perfect.

#134 5 years ago

Lesson definitely learned.

Now, is it ok if I replace the outside spring with a dampening pad ? It would allow me to get that a-bit-less-than-an-inch back. Just thinking, you know ...

#135 5 years ago

So, I replaced the exterior spring with a small white silicone ring (Titan) and stuffed a bit the rubber tip. The ring looks nice with the beehive, the tip is just a bit wobbly but I'll find a way to secure it better. It makes a bang if I pull the plunger all the way, but half-pulled (no need for more actually) is fine.

It'll do, but I'd be happy to find the correct length rod.

#136 5 years ago

I pulled the boards out of the machine to assess how many connectors related material I would need and work on it when I'll get the materials.

I couldn't do it with the rectifier board, as you can see :
Rectifier Board 1.jpg
Rectifier Board 2.jpg

Seems rather hacky to me, but I'm certainly not an expert. Should I leave it like that and just replace the connectors on the bottom of the board ?

The three square things at the back must be heatsinks. They were pressed against a metal plate and there was some white residue. I suppose it's thermal paste and that I should add some new paste when putting the board back.

#137 5 years ago

It's ugly, but that's how they were made. Remove the old thermal paste with denatured alcohol and apply new. Make sure that blue/white wire doesn't get pinched between the rectifier and metal plate when you reassemble it.

#138 5 years ago

Ugly indeed, and it means you can't remove it and you have to make the soldering job while leaning inside the cabinet, right ?

Regarding the rest of the connectors, I read that they should make a tight seal to avoid future corrosion, so I'll probably buy new housings for the connectors because some are slightly warped. In that case, do you guys just cut the wires (and strip them again) or do you painstakingly remove each pin from the old housing ?

To stay on the same subject, should I bother redoing the connector on the displays ? Two of them are not showing every number, but I didn't investigate the cause yet.

#139 5 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

Ugly indeed, and it means you can't remove it and you have to make the soldering job while leaning inside the cabinet, right ?

Not at all. You can unplug the connectors, unscrew 4 (or 6) screws and remove the whole board with the transformer and rectifier so you can take it to the bench and work on it.

Quoted from aKa:

Regarding the rest of the connectors, I read that they should make a tight seal to avoid future corrosion, so I'll probably buy new housings for the connectors because some are slightly warped. In that case, do you guys just cut the wires (and strip them again) or do you painstakingly remove each pin from the old housing ?

Unless you plan on coating everything with grease you can't avoid oxidation/corrosion. I wouldn't worry about it. As long as your housings are not burned or cracked they can be reused. I cut the wires as close as possible to the old pins.

Quoted from aKa:

To stay on the same subject, should I bother redoing the connector on the displays ? Two of them are not showing every number, but I didn't investigate the cause yet.

You may want to for reliability, but reflowing the headers on the display boards is typically all they need.

#140 5 years ago

Oh, and that thing literally fell of the rectifier board when I touched it.
That thing.jpg
I should probably worry about it and replace it. What is it by the way (some kind of capacitor i would guess) ?

#141 5 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

Oh, and that thing literally fell of the rectifier board when I touched it.
That thing.jpg
I should probably worry about it and replace it. What is it by the way (some kind of capacitor i would guess) ?

That is not a capacitor... it's a varistor. It is used to clamp voltage spikes above the rated value, 250 volts in your case. Replace it.... they are cheap.

Mac

#142 5 years ago

Does it need to have exactly the same specifications ? I'll order a few things from the following retailer and they only have this :
http://www.flipper-passion.com/product_info.php?cPath=50_153&products_id=3911&osCsid=080a6e760f76ea397be81f5a4ce453ca

#143 5 years ago
Quoted from aKa:

Does it need to have exactly the same specifications ?

Only if you want it to work as designed

#144 5 years ago

That's alright, I bought the correct one in the store where I bought my (many) under-playfield fuses, here in Paris.

1 week later
#145 5 years ago

I started working today on the boards headers unsoldering/soldering. It's rather unpleasant I must say.
Here's the first header I soldered. It looks rather dirty. Can I continue like that or should I do better ? (How ?)

Soldering 1.jpg

#146 5 years ago

You could remove some of the flux and crap between solder pads, but otherwise looks good.

#147 5 years ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

You could remove some of the flux and crap between solder pads ...

What product should I use for the cleaning ? Isopropyl alcohol is surprisingly hard to find in France, so anything else ?

#148 5 years ago

I don't think alcohol will work anyway. You need flux remover in a spray can.

#149 5 years ago

rubbing alcohol works but dulls the finish

#150 5 years ago
Quoted from rcbrown316:

rubbing alcohol works but dulls the finish

I can't say I really care about the finish of electronic cards, inside the machine where I'll hardly ever look once I'm done with the work. Then maybe I shouldn't care about a bit of crap or flux excess in the first place. A good thing that I'm really slow and didn't do anything yet ...

On a totally unrelated subject, I've been wondering about the two pinholes below the flippers. There's no pins on my machine, and I don't know if there's supposed to be ones, or if those holes are just there to help align the flippers (if so, with or without the rubbers ?).

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
From: $ 155.00
$ 50.00
From: $ 45.00
Displays
PinballSolutions.eu
From: $ 5.00
Cabinet - Other
Rock Custom Pinball
From: $ 14.00
Electronics
Third Coast Pinball
There are 293 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 6.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside