Take a real look not his wack false advertisement! Let me know what you really think? !! Should I asked for my money back? Being he has damaged my game and falsely claiming differently!

Sounds like Scott needs better friends and NorCal needs a better resto guy.

Let them see what your really putting out there, just like many have said about you and I stood up in many cases but look at me now! Many the many were right. Full restore! Right bud!

What did you test the machine was n perfect working order when I brought it and you didn’t pay for parts I paid for all of them!

Here is the proof you built your cart but used my card! As I requested to prevent this exact thing! To think I trusted you! Maybe I need to see what my 600$ bought me as you won’t show me! Hmmmm weird!

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Get the update of what really going down! He has led you to be deceived

This thread is why I don’t restore games for other people.

rd

3000 ain’t cheap for shorty work that damaged brand new products!!

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Hi.

3000 ain’t cheap for shorty work that damaged brand new products!!

Total understand just need to be clear that he is giving out a false representation on what real!

I wouldn’t say these are polished by any standard? Would you agree?

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Seriously let's see a good ole dust em up end this

And again let it be very clear, I think scott is a very good guy!

But I’d say that what he thinks, he is delivering, doesn’t match what he thinks it is, and is beyond what I requested. I asked for a playfield swap on a very simple game as we can all agree, and a painted cabinet! To give an impression that this is a fu restore is as false it can be!

There is nothing polished, damaged new products, nothing other then the new PF and cab, and the items I had PC are even cleaned

The game was in complete working order, and cabinet what in good shape that needed a LITTLE TLC.

So 3000$ Labor is a stretch, as I paid for all materials but tape, wood fill, and spray paint which he claims was 400$.

I don’t, and didn’t want this, but he’d rather take it here with FALSE representation then answer my call or meet me in person!

It seems like he did (most of) the work? I don't know what level of quality you were expecting, what the level of quality was that was promised, or the kind of work that could be provided.

Based on price alone and excluding all other issues/complaints, you did not pay for a high-end restoration. As others have mentioned, you would be looking at a $6-8K+ cost for a high-end, high quality job. There are a lot of hours and care and attention that go into restoring a game, and that means a lot of $$.

$3k for just the cab work seemed a bit low, but for a playfield swap too? It sounds like undercharging or being underpaid for a project could potentially be a recipe for possibly rushing and cutting corners.

I understand not wanting to sink a whole lot into the game, and I also understand being upset with the results. Maybe there's some shared responsibility/blame because of mismatched expectations, I don't know.

I don't think either of you will be happy trying to arrive at a resolution, and maybe you won't reach a point where you would consider the result as being made whole. Personally, I have no interest in attempting to mediate a disagreement, so you'll have to work through that on your own.

Either way, in order to complete the project, you'll probably either have to finish it yourself to the level of which you are satisfied, or pay more money to have things finished or re-done (by the original person or by hiring another person). As for any damaged parts, I have no idea where that should fall.

I have to ask did you see any of his previous work prior to hire? did you ask for references or pictures of his previous restores? If not unfortunately you have some of the responsibility here.

I’m in agreement with you that the work in the photos you posted is very sloppy or just laziness. Cleaning a harness and all hardware is a basic fundamental step in a playfield swap. The damage shown is inexcusable and should be corrected or compensated.

My "two cents" here without getting too long about it.

WHY would you paint over a cabinet like that? Another couple hours of prep and you could have made that machine a heck of a lot nicer. And to not at least clean the dust & dirt off isn't a "restoration" it is a patch job at best.

There are places to "cut corners" and places not to cut corners and this job seems to be done backwards!

On the flip side time is money and even a good shop job takes a ton of time. Anyway best of luck to both of you!

Would agree totally… but I do restore games but not playfield swaps. However I did do one since he has had my machine and I can say it’s a way higher quality job! In far less time! Trust me I learned a ton here! I wish I’d just not even gone down this road! But if anyone wants my Quailty level job I’d be happy to do so for 3000 in labor!

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Nothing to do with the game, the fact that it looked like a cluster FK from the OP and the owner.

He has done amazing work! He has done over 20 PF swaps, as well as stencil work! And I told him I only need a playfield swap and a cab paint. I can handle the rest!! I just don’t get why he’d lead people to believe he paid for parts and did a full restore when it is not! He knew what my cap was and to just arbitrarily exceed that and expect me to be ok with it without even talking about it is wack!

Holy crap. I made a couple comments and now this looks like "whose dick is bigger" thread. Count me out, fight among yourself children.

This is for Judge Judy or any of the TV judges. I think they’ll pay both parties like $1500 just to be there. It would be an interesting case.

The pictures look like this is exactly what was done. Did you not agree on a price before this work was completed? This doesnt look like a restore, it just looks like what you requested, a parts swap and painted cabinet. It is hobbyist level for sure though, the cabinet prep is not good, but if you just asked for the cabinet to be painted, he did that.

Stenciling cabinets is a hell of a lot more work than decaling them (the prep on the cabinet is the same though), so I dont know if you can compare your time on the TAF to this SI, it is two completely different worlds. If you want a better idea of how tedious the stenciling process is, you could have sanded the entire backbox of the TAF and screened it instead of masking and spray painting, and then think about the amount of time that takes, then apply it to the entire cabinet with multiple layers.

I dont think there is a winner here, hopefully you guys can work it out, and hopefully you had talked about a price before the work was done.

If your argument is that he opened this thread with "professional restore", then I understand where you are coming from. But if your argument is that he didnt do what you initially asked him to, he definitely did what you asked him to.

Good luck to both of you.

Perfect for The People's Court. Judge Millan's husband John is a huge pinball fan and has mentioned it several times on the show when they chat between cases. I'm sure he's on here on Pinside too.

To quote some Cool Hand Luke: what we have here is a failure to communicate.

From OP's perspective, what we have here is a failure to remunerate.

From Norcal's perspective, it's a failure to rejuvenate.

WELL I'D CALL IT A FAILURE TO ADJUDICATE

What we have here....

Just sell the game to some dumb fuck who has more money than brains, then use that to fund getting another Space Invaders and either do the restore yourself or send it to HEP. Set a little bit of that money aside so the two of you can get a room.

I keep a spreadsheet of every part purchased, then I know exactly how much I am losing on a restore.
The 200 hour labor figure is just about right. (with prepped and painted cabinet and stencils + tearing down everything to the nut and bolt)
I would never restore an older game (prior to '85) for anyone but myself, even pros like HEP could not make money restoring a C title.

(Nods head)

A KISS pinball is about the only 80's title I even want to work up to 'players grade'.

Cabinet work sucks up an insane amount of time.

I don't know the labor cost but at least restoring the legs and other metal is a quick swap job. So that part will be cheap.

I actually don’t base my rates on what the item I am working on is or could possibly be worth.
Over the years I have done $10,000 restorations on $500 games and the owners never hesitated and could not have been happier. I have also seen grown men nearly cry over a $60 flipper kit on a $10,000 game because they saw it on the PBL site for $40 and apparently I should be operating at cost.
The only way to make a living is to charge accordingly for your services and make damn sure people are getting their money’s worth.Finding out they don’t realize or appreciate it though sometimes is a bit disheartening but most do.

As someone who "restores" pinball machines for other people.... interesting post.

I think the issues here revolve more around peoples definition of words like "professional" or "restoration"

To me, someone who is a professional at something, is someone who earns their living doing that task..... Professional Football players, earn their living playing football. Professional auto body painters, make a living painting cars etc.

I don't know how many actual "professional" Pinball restorers there are in this Country. Very very few I'm sure. HEP, would be one & there are probably a few others that I am not familiar with.

Most people (including myself) are more Hobbyists, who work on peoples games for entertainment & to make a few bucks on the side. I work at a Car Dealership to put food on my table, & a roof over my head. I don't rely on restoring pinball machines to do it. Any $ I make from pinball work goes back into my pinball hobby... upgrading equipment/facilities or buying parts for my own machines etc.

Hobbyists are going to have a wide variety of levels of quality, due to experience, equipment, materials used etc.

Anyone paying a hobbyist to do a job for them should look at level of work performed in the past by that person & decide for themselves whether they are comfortable with the level of work to be performed, as well as timeframe etc.

Then we come into the whole "restoration" word.

A "restored" machine is going to have different meanings to different people... My general definition is a machine that has had everything re-done..... cab, backbox, wiring, boards, PF, mechs etc. I (& I assume most others) don't consider a Cab painted machine with a new PF swap a "restored" machine. It's more of a partially restored machine. So to see connectors not done, & display board untouched etc.... that's what it is... a partially restored machine.

Most of this is just semantics over the definition of words.

Cabinets do take a tremendous of time to "restore" very nicely. Some people cut corners & they don't end up as nice..... I suspect those guys are spending way less time. Time = $. Time "usually" = quality.

I used to quote a cabinet paint job at $600 + stencils. With cost of paint/clear/primer/sandpaper/filler etc rising as it has in past years, I could not even conceive of doing one for less than $800 now in labor & materials (not including stencils)

I hav'nt had anyone want just a cab done in a long time, it's all full restos now.

I charge $2000 in labor only to do a base "restore" a game (parts are all extra). I make about $10 a hour labor.... but it gives me a hobby in the evenings & weekends that I enjoy. & I will be bumping my labor up some more in future.

I charge a little more if guys wants a new bottom made for cab etc. But the base game resto is $2K & I have been told by many that I'm way too cheap. Probably why I'm booked through mid 2023 at this point with games. But again, I don't do it to make a living, I'm just a home hobbyist. Obviously I could not live on $10 an hour.... hence why true professionals at this are charging 3X+ what I do.

Whenever $ is involved people are always going to get up in arms, especially if the quality of the work is questioned by the end user.

If I had a customer question my work when I was done & pointed out all the flaws they were upset with, I would probably cut them a break on the cost. But I just try to be upfront with guys & let them know I am not a professional...... if you want professional quality, hire HEP. If you want close to professional quality & can wait a year & pay less, there are probably several hobbyists around that can do it.

Bottom of the head wouldn't be repainted on a restore, it wasn't painted originally. It's still original.

Is missing the metal glides though.

My projects are all of the EM variety. I spend more money on parts than the game is worth and more hours than I will admit. I don’t mind because it is a hobby. When I’m done I see what I accomplished and what I could have done better. I call them projects because the word restoration means different things to different people. The OP has his version and that’s OK. The customer asked for a couple of task that can be time consuming, but isn’t a restoration in my opinion. I would never pay someone else to do my hobby and I wouldn’t do it for someone else. My expectations as a customer would be very high. On the other hand I would expect my customer to overlook my flaws. It’s sad that both parties decided to bring this to the forum. I hope both of you can come to terms.

WeatherbyMAG You are definitely way too cheep. You do beautiful and well thought out work. I enjoy your restoration thread.
Same with you @gdonovan.
Silverstreak02 Your around the world project is a work of art. I'm looking forward to seeing it completed

The going restoration rate from people I know who do it professionally starts ~$50 an hour plus all parts and materials and can go up depending on the project and what is involved. It is skilled labor and very time consuming where 150 hours into a project isn't unusual. Full collector quality restores can often cost upwards of 10K in parts and labor not including the cost of the machine.

3k to cover labor and materials for a playfield swap and a cabinet stencil generally isn't going to buy you high end results unless you are really lucky and find a very skilled hobbyist doing it for fun and beer money. $400 in paint and materials likely includes your stencil cost which is around $200.
There is a fair amount of testing, adjustment, and troubleshooting of any machine after it is fully disassembled for paint and a playfield swap, even if it was fully working before you started, and that time needs to be accounted for. Some of the finish work shown is indicative of someone who is still developing their restoration skills, which fits at this price point.

Sounds like expectations weren't properly discussed before this project began. Hopefully this can come to a positive resolution

He said labor only from the start. Let me ask: how much do you think is fair given what you received?

It doesn't really matter what he or anyone else thinks the work that was done is worth, if they agreed on a maximum budget cap.

Well this thread has taught me that I'm too soft, my friends ask me to redo their playfields or just shop a game thats been on route and i typically scratch the back of my neck and wince while saying "uhhhh is $100 too much?"
From now on $3000!

who is HEP......LOL

He’s Hugh HEPner DUH

Like I said it’s an abortion

Automotive primer is over $400/gallon now, and typically takes at least 32oz from what I've been told onto a bare cabinet.

Clear over $500, goodness knows what nice paint goes for.

Not to mention the stencil job. That looks to me to be at least $1200 cabinet repaint.