(Topic ID: 168535)

Rescue 911 - Big problem, paperweight

By turbosl2

7 years ago


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  • 62 posts
  • 12 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 years ago by ForceFlow
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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There are 62 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 7 years ago

So i went to move my gotleib rescue 911 into my basement and i took it all apart then reassembled...HOWEVER i reversed the P1 connector on the A3 driver board and the main power supply A2. The 20 pin ribbon calbe melted. I replaced the ribbon cable and the machine still does nothing. Its complete static and nothing boots. What do you think i should do. could this be the driver board (A3) , or the CPU board (A1) or is it something totally different. The dot matrix does not come on, the machine lights up but does nothing more.

See attached pic for the connectors i put in the wrong spot. These two circled in red were swapped and then the ribbon cable between A3 and A2 melted the 2nd from the bottom wire.

mistake (resized).pngmistake (resized).png

#2 7 years ago

First, check the fuses.

Quoted from turbosl2:

the machine lights up but does nothing more.

GI or feature lamps? If it's just GI, that doesn't usually mean much.

Next, check the pin out of the connectors that got mixed up. That can sometimes indicate what was fed where.

A2J1 (power supply)
1: +12vdc input (source)
2: GND
3: GND
4: +12vdc input (source)
5: +12vdc output
6: GND

A3J1 (Driver board)
1: GND
2: +5vdc input (source)
3: +20vdc input (source)
4: GND
5: +5dvc input (source)
6: +20vdc input (source)

I'm wondering if 20v got sent up through the ground connections, hitting all the boards. The wire on the ribbon cable that you indicated is the ground wire between the boards, so that leads me to believe that is what may have happened.

Worst case, most of the chips and polarized caps are toast, and maybe the transistors too. Probably all the boards will need repairs.

Best case--you're going to have to troubleshoot piece by piece as if it was a newly acquired dead machine. Start with measuring output voltage on the power supply, then moving onto the the MPU. LED blink codes for diagnostics will be limited, since DMD games largely rely on the DMD for game errors.

http://www.pinrepair.com/sys3/#led

#3 7 years ago

Thanks for the help. I will test the wires today. The machine worked fine until i made that mistake. If it helps no LEDs light up on any boards but the game lights up. DMD display does not come on. Start button, flippers...etc do nothing. Its basically a cabinet with lights.
I do hear a slight hiss from the speakers and some feedback.

#4 7 years ago

Looks like fuses F4 F5 F6 are all blown.

#5 7 years ago
Quoted from turbosl2:

Looks like fuses F4 F5 F6 are all blown.

Replace the fuses (with the correct values) and see what you get after that.

Those are the fuses for the display, power supply (which in turn, supplies voltage to all the boards), and feature lamps.

#6 7 years ago

I will order them tomorrow since I can't seem to find a place that is local that carries them. Fingers crossed

#7 7 years ago

It really sucks not having local electronic shops. Always, always, before disassembly label every single connector and take pictures for extra incentive. Good luck to ya!!

#8 7 years ago

For fuses.....try stereo stores [electronic retailers] , hardware stores and even appliance retailers/repair outlets . Standard sized and value fuses are usually on hand at most of these places.
Even marine outlets have them too.
Good luck. Tis a shame they never made the connectors unable to connect to other boards

#9 7 years ago

Auto parts stores carry those fuses, and like Hawk said, those others.

#10 7 years ago
Quoted from sohchx:

It really sucks not having local electronic shops. Always, always, before disassembly label every single connector and take pictures for extra incentive. Good luck to ya!!

Oh ya no doubt. I took pictures. This was a mistake because i was rushing and didnt do a final check.

I replaced all fuses with the correct values. I actually had to take F22 bottom left flipper fuse to borrow for the F5 fuse, while i am waiting for a new one to arrive.

Here is where i am at.
-My DMD display now turns on, but its all garble, no letters or numbers.
-The game does nothing different. Start button does not work, all lights come on. Still some feedback in the sound and i hear the amp turn on
-No power at any of the boards, well as far as i can tell. None of the LEDS are lit on any of the boards. In fact if i unplug the A2 power supply nothing changes.
-I am wondering if this is burnt since i reversed the connectors from this and the A3 driver board
Thoughts?
I appreciate your help guys, i am devastated. The kids and GF are bummed, lol

#11 7 years ago

"all lights come on"--feature lamps for GI? If it's GI, ignore it. It is diagnostically irrelevant here. That just means the power is on and has nothing to do with the circuit boards.

Did you measure the output voltages coming out of the power supply? If that isn't working properly, nothing will. You'll need some schematics handy to see which pins are which.

#12 7 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

"all lights come on"--feature lamps for GI? If it's GI, ignore it. It is diagnostically irrelevant here. That just means the power is on and has nothing to do with the circuit boards.
Did you measure the output voltages coming out of the power supply? If that isn't working properly, nothing will. You'll need some schematics handy to see which pins are which.

I will go measure the voltages coming out of the power supply right now and see whats up.

#13 7 years ago
Quoted from sc93cobra:

Auto parts stores carry those fuses, and like Hawk said, those others.

Auto parts stores usually have the 32v rated fuses. Better to use the 250v rated ones for applications in a house where 115v-120v is standard. I've found them at Lowe's & Home Depot.

#14 7 years ago

Honestly..... you really fkd up sorry to say . You will spend more time and money trying to repair those boards than the actual game is worth if you cant repair yourself. Send out to be checked and start there. Needless to say what coils and other stuff got fried.

#15 7 years ago

A2J1 tests ok, not 12v but 14v.
A2J2 everything is 0v from ground, or might jump to .08v dc

A3 Driver board
A3J1
1 ground
2 zero (not 5)
3 22.4v
4 not used
5 not used
6 22.4v

#16 7 years ago

A5J1
1,2,3,4 zero to ground
5 -12v
6,7,8,9 zero
10 + 12v

This was all done on DC on the meter

#17 7 years ago

Ok, voltages are where they are supposed to be.

Unfortunately, for a completely dead machine with no boards showing any life, it's going to be very difficult to diagnose anything without proper diagnostic equipment.

I'm pretty sure you sent 22v to the ground plane of every board, which would have killed most, if not all, the chips, and possibly caps (since the voltage was going in backwards), and possibly some transistors.

If you're comfortable with board work, this won't be a quick fix. There is not extensive information on system 3 boards since they aren't as common as other systems, and they don't have too many problem areas that needed extensive documentation.

If you are not comfortable with board work, ask around with some of the guys who do board repairs. It probably won't be cheap, but they would have the right equipment.

Also, note that most repair shops/guys will not take boards that have obvious signs of being previously worked on. So, if you make attempts at repair and foul up the board, traces, pads, etc, you might be stuck.

#18 7 years ago

Do you think the power supply is dead since it is not showing voltage. Everything on A2J2 is 0! Is this an indication of a bad power supply?
What about how on A3 how the on pin is also zero

From the schematic and the check you asked a few days ago these should show some sort of power right

#19 7 years ago

I'm surprised the connectors fit the reverse way. From working on my Mario every connector seemed to only fit one way.

#20 7 years ago

Ya not really reversed, just swapped between two boards. Wires are the same length and connectors are the same. Not a good design. I was a mechanic for GM and it was almost impossible to have this as a mistake. I am hoping force flow can help me narrow it down since no power at the pins I mentioned above

#21 7 years ago
Quoted from turbosl2:

A2J2 everything is 0v from ground, or might jump to .08v dc

Quoted from turbosl2:

Do you think the power supply is dead since it is not showing voltage. Everything on a2j2 is 0?

Oops, I misread that. Yes, if you are getting nothing out of the power supply, then address that first. It's a simple board, thankfully.

#22 7 years ago

So should buy this power supply from somewhere online. I don't mind investing some money. Or if someone has an idea how to fix it I am willing to attemp. I take it power comes in the bottom at 12v and is supposed to exit the top at 5. Where should I get one? What should I look for in mine.

#23 7 years ago

1) Inspect the back of the board for cracked solder joints or burnt/broken traces. If the surface looks wrinkled, that's normal--that's just the sealant.
2) Inspect the two capacitors. If they are bulging, leaking, or burnt, replace them.
3) test the output leg of the LM338K regulator directly (it's the trace that eventually connects to R2, C2, and J2-1)
4) If it is reading nothing, consider replacing it.
5) Leave J2 disconnected.
6) Test the output voltage and adjust the potentiometer so that the output is 5v +/- .03v
7) While the game is off, connect J2, turn on the game, and see what you get. Since there is now a load on the 5v, adjust the pot as necessary to get 5v +/- .03v

#24 7 years ago

I think you probably got lucky and just smoked the power supply (you have no 5 volt which drives all the other boards), you wont know until you get the power supply working though. That power supply is extremely basic, I think I completely rebuilt mine for around $10 in parts.

You can buy a brand new plug and play replacement here- http://pbresource.com/boards.html#gtbsys3 or you can send yours out to be repaired. At $39.00, most repair guys will be more expensive than a new board.

#25 7 years ago

So I took apart the power supply and I have 14.2v going into the voltage regulator at the bottom pin but 0v coming out at the top pin...measuring to ground. Also, another way I measure is I have 14.2v across the two pins on the voltage regulator. So does one pin go to ground or is it shorted?

image (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpg

#26 7 years ago

I did buy a rebuild which I know comes with the voltage regulator and the pot. I am not sure about the other components being included.
How do I test the caps. Are they the little Amber pieces. I know the auxiliary board has two large caps but I have not even gotten there yet

image (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpg

#27 7 years ago

One pin goes to ground.

At this point, I would try replacing the regulator. 22v coming up from ground was probably too much for it.

https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=%20LM338K

#28 7 years ago
Quoted from turbosl2:

I did buy a rebuild which I know comes with the voltage regulator and the pot. I am not sure about the other components being included.
How do I test the caps. Are they the little Amber pieces. I know the auxiliary board has two large caps but I have not even gotten there yet

Those caps look ok. They're non polarized and they haven't cracked or popped apart, so they're probably fine.

#29 7 years ago

If you are comfortable doing the rebuild, just go ahead and do everything. It will not take up much time, and really, at this point, it is probably a good idea to just do it since you already have it apart. I am willing to bet that you smoked that lm338, but with this part of the machine being so critical to the rest of the function, go ahead and rebuild it.

If you arent comfortable rebuilding it, go ahead and send it my way, and I will take care of it for you.

#30 7 years ago

I appreciate all the help so far. I am comfortable with this but if it's something on the main boards I may have to pay you to diagnose and repair. I am hoping this gets me started so I can check the leds on the boards and see where she's at. I am not sure how to test the lm338 but the resistors tested good at this point.

#31 7 years ago

So I replaced the adjustable pot and the voltage regulator and no change. Still no power coming out. I am lost. There are not a lot of components. The resistors test good. The only thing I don't know how to check are the axial components that are yellow/tan. Unless the voltage regulator is broken.

#33 7 years ago

Yup

image (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpg

#34 7 years ago

Still 14v going in and .08v out. This is at the connectors bottom then top. If I measeure across the voltage regulator as shown below I get the 14v at the bottom pin to ground and the .08v at the top where my screwdriver is touching. Maybe I am measuring wrong but still nothing at the connector up top

Btw this is with a new lmk and adjustable resistor
image (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpg
It must be a capacitor cause that's the only things left.

#35 7 years ago

So I just disconnected both caps and measured with my digital multimeter on highest setting. The one on the output side when discharged climbes to infinity then meter stops reading. This little guy flashes a reading on my meter then stops reading. It doesn't climb in resistance like the other. Should I replace. The meter is set to 2M

The cap reads RSE 104 on one side then ZFD 328 on the other. If its bad this is hard for me to find on digikey...i dont really know what i am looking for or what these numbers mean, lol

image (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpg

#36 7 years ago
Quoted from turbosl2:

So I just disconnected both caps and measured with my digital multimeter on highest setting. The one on the output side when discharged climbes to infinity then meter stops reading. This little guy flashes a reading on my meter then stops reading. It doesn't climb in resistance like the other. Should I replace. The meter is set to 2M
The cap reads RSE 104 on one side then ZFD 328 on the other. If its bad this is hard for me to find on digikey...i dont really know what i am looking for or what these numbers mean, lol

The climbing to infinity is correct behavior. If your meter has no capacitance test function the process should be, discharge the cap, set meter to highest resistance setting, connect leads. You should see numbers, then infinity. Several videos online, watch one to double check yourself (and my advice! lol)

http://pbresource.com/eleccomp.html
Pinball Resource is the place to go for Gottlieb parts. Tell them you need capacitors C1 and C2 on the Rescue 911 power supply board. If you don't have a manual I suggest you get one from them.

#37 7 years ago

This is what I did with both. The one climbed like that the other just flashed resistance for a split second then nothing. I wasn't sure if that was cause the cap was so small

#38 7 years ago
Quoted from turbosl2:

This is what I did with both. The one climbed like that the other just flashed resistance for a split second then nothing. I wasn't sure if that was cause the cap was so small

It's possible. But what exactly do you mean by "nothing"? Blank screen? Flashes zero-some value-repeating?

The schematic should have a list of parts. I'll upload a photo of my Rock manual.

tmp_12859-20160917_13140958087849.jpgtmp_12859-20160917_13140958087849.jpg

#39 7 years ago

All the components are on the parts list in the manual for the power supply.

C1 is .1uf 50v (ceramic axial cap)
C2 is 4.7uf 10v (ceramic axial cap)

Greatplainselectronics.com carries them. Components from PBR are usually more expensive.

#40 7 years ago

Thanks so far guys. What I mean is I set my meter to 2M and I discharged the caps, test it and it reads for a split second the bnothing. The other cap climbs

#41 7 years ago

Where did you buy the replacement LM338K and how much did you pay?

My bet is that you got a counterfeit LM338K part. There are a number of sellers with them at about the $2.50 mark (both Aliexpress, Ebay, and even Amazon). The Price for legit factory new parts is now almost $50:

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/LM338KSTEEL-NOPB/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvu8NZDyZ4K0bykmGFCCERa

Many months back, it was around $25.00. The ones Ed sells at GPE at $9.00 are legit and are new old stock inventory purchased before many of the manufacturers stopped making TO-3 parts.

About a year ago, I purchased a couple of batches from different sources for the $2.00 mark and they were all counterfeit. I suspect they are actually remarked LM317Ks. They work as adjustable regulators but can only handle 1 amp or less. More than that and they fuse their internal conductors instantly. Some of the counterfeits I received had the same markings as yours in the photo (H:1027).

Circuit is pretty simple. If the resistors all check out okay, and the connections are solid, it should function. As was mentioned, don't worry about the caps as long as they are not shorted. You might see charge/discharge of the 4.7ufd but your meter isn't going to respond to the tiny 0.1ufd value.

Here is our old discussion of the counterfeit parts.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/2013-has-been-a-bad-year-for-electronic-component-supplies/page/2#post-2601133

If you did not get your LM338K from a known reputable source, I suggest you rebuy and replace it again.

#42 7 years ago

Interesting. I searched the net and people have YouTube videos on the lm338 saying some are empty containers. Blows my mind. I did buy from eBay.
I will rebuy. I cant spend $49 for this one part, thats very expensive. Other options, Who is Ed and GPE?

#43 7 years ago

Just for shts and grins I popped the cap off

image (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpg

#44 7 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

All the components are on the parts list in the manual for the power supply.
C1 is .1uf 50v (ceramic axial cap)
C2 is 4.7uf 10v (ceramic axial cap)
Greatplainselectronics.com carries them. Components from PBR are usually more expensive.

I purchased everything from here

#45 7 years ago

GPE = Great Plains Electronics.

Forceflow linked to it above. Buy with confidence.

https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=%20LM338K

I wouldn't spend $50 for the part either. We used to be able to buy them in quantity for under $8.00. But all good things must end. As I described in the other post, Instead of having to buy 2 LM338Ks for the application I was using them in, I was able to buy a small adjustable switching regulator PCB from china that handles 15 amps for around $12.00 shipped. It even runs a lot cooler. I also managed to buy a few originals off ebay for around $5.00 each but the seller obviously had old originals and a very limited number.

Your inside photo proves its a bootleg part. IF you look closely, I would bet you can see one of those tiny whiskers is fused open.

In your case, if you don't want to risk another $9 plus shipping purchase, you might want to consider the $39 option for a replacement that was listed above. Of course, keep in mind, if there are other shorted components on the other PCBs and you still have the power connectors connected, even a good regulator will shut down due to its internal over current protection.

#46 7 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

Here is our old discussion of the counterfeit parts.

Oh man... I did not like that discussion over there. Apocalyptic type stuff.

#47 7 years ago

I did notice that the little wire was burned out like a fuse. So i decied to pop the cover on the oem regulator and found the same thing, wire fused open. The only difference between the two is the OEM gottlieb was much larger internals. I am hoping something else isnt bad. This thing is pretty simple and everything tests ok. Is it possible that i installed the replacement blue adjustable resistor backwards? If i recall i tested it and it was the same ohm reading from the center pin to either side.

#48 7 years ago

I am pretty sure the Bourn's 10 turn trim pots have a pattern to the leads so you probably didn't get it wrong.

The original LM338K is rated a 5 amps which is why it has multiple conductors inside. The counterfeit, if it was even a regulator (as opposed to a remarked cheap transistor,) could only handle 1 amp max.

Get a legit part and you should he okay.

#49 7 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

The original LM338K is rated a 5 amps which is why it has multiple conductors inside. The counterfeit, if it was even a regulator (as opposed to a remarked cheap transistor,) could only handle 1 amp max.

Might be a good idea to open a dispute and/ore click the report link on the item ad report it as counterfeit.

#50 7 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Might be a good idea to open a dispute and/ore click the report link on the item ad report it as counterfeit.

The Amazon seller refunded the price and apologized. The eBay seller wanted them returned. $19.00 to return $25 in product. Instead, I left neg. Feedback and a warning. And they never took the auction down. So they really don't care who the rip off.

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