(Topic ID: 110694)

Tech :STTNG general illumination issue.

By Solder_Splash

9 years ago


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#1 9 years ago

Finishing up my shop job on my STTNG and I'm blowing F107 which is 5 amp slo-blo g.i. fuse. The only thing I did with g.i. was to install new lamp sockets in my pop bumpers. So I'm thinking I got something wired wrong. The being said, would someone please take a picture or two to help me out? I think the issue has to do with the upper right pop where the white and green wires are involved.
thanks in advance!

Post edited by Solder_Splash: title change

#2 9 years ago

Plain green wires for your lamps and green/purple to your switch. Hope this helps.

image.jpgimage.jpg image-499.jpgimage-499.jpg
#3 9 years ago

Thanks for the reply. Switch wires are fine. I just need see how the lamp sockets are wired.

#5 9 years ago

Yes I think they will. Funny how things don't work when you get creative with your wiring
My bad for not documenting how they were wired before I pulled them. Might also help of I had a wiring diagram.
Thanks for your reply.

#6 9 years ago

Cool, good luck. Let us know if you need something specific. I can take a look at mine and send you a picture or let you know how mine is wired...

#7 9 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Cool, good luck. Let us know if you need something specific. I can take a look at mine and send you a picture or let you know how mine is wired...

I'll definitely follow up. I'm in the home stretch and getting this thing back together. Hopefully I wI'll be destroying the Borg after assimilating some turkey tomorrow.

#8 9 years ago

Ok so it looks like the pop bumper lights may have been a red herring. I got them wired correctly and F107 still blows. I've been lucky and have never experienced a g.i. short until now and this thing has got me stumped.
I went ahead and disconnected the pops illumination just to take them out of the equation.
With connector J121 connected my F107 5 amp sb blows immediately. I assume this means I have a short somewhere on the PF, correct?
I've done a visual on all gi in the string. Started removing bulbs and inspecting sockets but I don't seem to be getting anywhere.
Am I on the right track here or am I missing something?

#10 9 years ago

Try removing the cable on J121, replacing the fuse and seeing if it still blows. If it does not blow with the cable unplugged, you definitely have a problem with the green/white GI circuit. If it blows with the wiring unplugged, you have a driver board problem. Also check the connector on J120 to make sure it is wired correctly.

To save yourself some money on fuses while troubleshooting this, you can measure the resistance of the playfield wiring between J121 pins 5 and 10. If it is zero, you know you still have a short.

Try removing all the GI bulbs to see if the resistance goes down at some point. As you do, inspect the wiring at each socket.

#12 9 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Try removing the cable on J121, replacing the fuse and seeing if it still blows. If it does not blow with the cable unplugged, you definitely have a problem with the green/white GI circuit. If it blows with the wiring unplugged, you have a driver board problem. Also check the connector on J120 to make sure it is wired correctly.
To save yourself some money on fuses while troubleshooting this, you can measure the resistance of the playfield wiring between J121 pins 5 and 10. If it is zero, you know you still have a short.
Try removing all the GI bulbs to see if the resistance goes down at some point. As you do, inspect the wiring at each socket.

further, if the fuse does not blow with the j121 unplugged, check resistance on the gi pins on j121 - if there is a short, you will know in a second b/c the resistance will be <2-3 ohms.

#13 9 years ago

The problem is just on one string, not the entire GI, right? Remove all the bulbs in that string. Does the fuse still blow? I am assuming since it was a shop job that you replaced all the GI bulbs? You could have the same problem I once had on a Corvette. I had a shorted GI bulb, brand new right out of new package. Take all (8?) bulbs out of that string and measure the resistance of each bulb and see if one or more is shorted.

#14 9 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Try removing the cable on J121, replacing the fuse and seeing if it still blows. If it does not blow with the cable unplugged, you definitely have a problem with the green/white GI circuit. If it blows with the wiring unplugged, you have a driver board problem. Also check the connector on J120 to make sure it is wired correctly.
To save yourself some money on fuses while troubleshooting this, you can measure the resistance of the playfield wiring between J121 pins 5 and 10. If it is zero, you know you still have a short.
Try removing all the GI bulbs to see if the resistance goes down at some point. As you do, inspect the wiring at each socket.

The fuse does not blow if J121 is not connected. I will check the resistance between J121-5 and J121-10 later tonight and post my findings.

I will also mention that gi row#1 is out as well. Fuse F110 is good and I checked continuity from pin on J113 to fuse and pin on J121on the other side of fuse to eliminate it from being a connector issue. I suppose my next move here will be to check for 6.8 VAC on pin J121-7 as I chase this part of it. From looking at the wiring diagram it also appears that I can swap connectors J120 & J121. I never realized that (probably since I never had a gi issue before).

Quoted from LOTR_breath:

The problem is just on one string, not the entire GI, right? Remove all the bulbs in that string. Does the fuse still blow? I am assuming since it was a shop job that you replaced all the GI bulbs? You could have the same problem I once had on a Corvette. I had a shorted GI bulb, brand new right out of new package. Take all (8?) bulbs out of that string and measure the resistance of each bulb and see if one or more is shorted.

Thanks. That will probably be my next step.

#15 9 years ago

Thanks to everyone that has posted pics of their restores. I was putting my GI wiring on my new playfield last night and hit a snag. Thanks to the all the pics on Pinside I was able to correct something I placed wrong.

#16 9 years ago

So I measured the resistance between J121-10 and J121-5 and it seemed within the normal range as compared to readings I got on the other gi strings. Certainly not a dead short that would blow a fuse. I'm out of 5 amp Slo-blo's so I stick a standard 5 amp fuse in F107 and guess what? ALL my gi comes on and the fuse doesn't blow.
Last night I pulled the subway and VUK assemblies to give them a good cleaning. I'm thinking that whatever was causing the short was "fixed" when I pulled that stuff. I did find one bulb in string #4 that was burnt out so maybe the short was there? Who knows but either way I'm glad the issue is gone. I'm not maring this as "solved" until I have the rest of the game back together. Don't want to jinx myself
Thanks again for the advice.

#17 9 years ago

Grrrrr! Now gi string #4 is out again. Fuse did not blow but now I only have .3v ac on pin J121-10

#18 9 years ago

Since nobody has asked, how do the GI connectors look? Any brown places?

#19 9 years ago
Quoted from Solder_Splash:

Grrrrr! Now gi string #4 is out again. Fuse did not blow but now I only have .3v ac on pin J121-10

Make sure you are measuring GI voltage from pin to pin and NOT pin to ground. GI circuits are AC and not referenced to ground. If you want to measure the voltage coming from the driver board, set your meter to AC and measure between pin 5 and pin 10, for example.

#20 9 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Make sure you are measuring GI voltage from pin to pin and NOT pin to ground. GI circuits are AC and not referenced to ground. If you want to measure the voltage coming from the driver board, set your meter to AC and measure between pin 5 and pin 10, for example.

Thanks. Yeah the voltage is missing for that string. My thoughts right now lean towards a burnt trace somewhere in that circuit. I blew several fuses trying to eliminate the short. My guess is a trace took some of the stress and now I have open circuit. I'm going to step away for a day or so and just concentrate on putting up a new highscore.
When I get this bug worked out, I just might put the game up for trade or sale.
20141129_120207.jpg20141129_120207.jpg

#21 9 years ago

Sounds good. When you pull the board to verify the traces, check out the data Chris just added to PinWiki created by a zaza here on Pinside that should help you visualize the traces: http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#General_Illumination_Problems

#22 9 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Sounds good. When you pull the board to verify the traces, check out the data Chris just added to PinWiki created by a zaza here on Pinside that should help you visualize the traces: http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#General_Illumination_Problems

Thanks Schwaggs. That should make tracking it down a lot easier. Now I just have to motivate myself to stop playing and pull the board. I'm thinking that even with all the GI strings working that the game is still way too dark with standard bulbs. I'll probably switc all the GI over to some type of LED bulb.

#23 9 years ago

I just used the "buzz" diagrams that zaza created to track down a GI problem. It makes it VERY simple.
--
Chris Hibler -CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.nt/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#24 9 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

I just used the "buzz" diagrams that zaza created to track down a GI problem. It makes it VERY simple.
--
Chris Hibler -CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.nt/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

Ok so I got around to pulling the board. Connectors and header pins all look pretty good.
I buzzed all the traces as indicated in the zaza diagram found in the pinwiki link above. No broken/burnt traces. Of course not, that would have made things too easy.

Next I tested J115-5 for 7V AC. Voltage is present.

Then I tested the 2N5401 and resistors associated with Q16. Everything looked good there.

Lastly I tested the 74LS374 @U1 with my DMM as outlined on Pinwiki. Again everything thing looks OK here. I haven't hit it with the logic probe yet since the board is currently of the the game.

That leaves me with the triac at Q16. I'm pretty sure there's no way to test this other than replacing it.

Am I missing anything here?

#25 9 years ago
Quoted from Solder_Splash:

That leaves me with the triac at Q16. I'm pretty sure there's no way to test this other than replacing it.

Am I missing anything here?

If you are sure alle traces and headers are fine, you could make a temporary connection with a jumper from J115-10 to J121-5. this way Q16 is skipped from the circuit. (almost like wpc95 string #4 and #5 are always 'on').If the GI string is working this way, the problem is possible Q16.

I didn't say I would do it the easy-way and make a short between leg1 with leg2 of Q16 with a small screwdriver.
PDB89-GI#4.PNGPDB89-GI#4.PNG

#26 9 years ago

Problem seems to be solved. I repinned j115 and J121 and now all my gi is back.
I doesn't make any sense since the circuit buzzed out but whatever.
As far as the short on the PF, a socket by the upper flipper had its tabs touching each other.
I must have bumped it when I pulled the that flipper at the start of the shop out.
I chased my tail for a day or two but I got it all sorted out

#27 9 years ago

Sweet! Glad you figured it out! Congrats on the fix!

#28 9 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Sweet! Glad you figured it out! Congrats on the fix!

Thanks!
Nothing like a freshly shopped game. Put in a lot of time getting it done but worth the effort.
STTNGshopped out.jpgSTTNGshopped out.jpg

#29 9 years ago

That is a beautiful pic!

#30 9 years ago
Quoted from LOTR_breath:

That is a beautiful pic!

Thanks man. It is a nice player's game for sure. The Treasure Cove process really brought the playfield back to life.

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