(Topic ID: 199540)

Reproduction certificates & valuation (TAFG)

By Durzel

6 years ago


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  • 27 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by Durzel
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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silver-ramp (resized).jpg
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#1 6 years ago

Hi,

I'm looking at purchasing a TAFG that I found on Craigslist, and from some further investigation I've discovered the guy is also registered here... I'm in the UK and he's in the States so obviously there is only so much I can do remotely, which is obviously giving me cause for concern above and beyond that which would exist buying a pin domestically.

Without naming names he has sent me a lot of photos and a video of it in action - everything checks out, the playfield is a TAFG judging by the less prominant star on the red carpet, it looks in overall great condition, etc. Haven't yet checked to see whether it has the other signs yet, but will. The asking price is over $10k, which intuitively feels like top end money.

What is causing me concern however is that the certificate appears to me to be a reproduction. The signatures are an exact match for the one sold by Pinball Fanatic. The seller hadn't advised me up front that it was a reproduction, which if I'm honest is something I would do if I were selling it because it is ultimately historically important for as much of it to be original, etc. I've asked about the manual - which I believe is harder to reproduce - but as it hasn't yet been pictured I'm assuming it doesn't exist.

I guess what I'm asking is how much this ought to affect the value and accordingly the price I should pay.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts

#2 6 years ago

I guess this is up to you if you value having an original piece of paper that you can put in the manual or frame and hang on the wall. I don't have the original certificate for mine either (I bought a reproduction too). I would be more concerned with the condition of the game than anything else.

As far as the manuals are concerned, you can still find original gold manuals if you look around. It is available for download because there are several things different between the gold and standard, notably the flippers.

#3 6 years ago

Thanks.

It's not so much wanting to frame it, moreover that if the price reflects an original certificate, but is actually a reproduction, then perhaps that's something to take issue with. I don't have a problem with a reproduction certificate in theory, beyond the fact of having to point it out to anyone who might later buy the pin from me. I guess I'm looking at it from the point of view of disclosure, and with a limited edition I would presume anything that is non-original could have an impact.

I could be making too big a deal out of it though... I acknowledge that

#4 6 years ago
Quoted from Durzel:

The asking price is over $10k, which intuitively feels like top end money.

That's the price if it was a high-end restoration in mint condition.

If it's just your average TAF, then it's way over priced.

#5 6 years ago

Even a TAFG?

#6 6 years ago

I haven't really seen a TAFG go for much more than a regular TAF. Maybe $1 or $2k more, but not several thousands more.

Condition is what really matters, for the most part.

Most of the TAFG's listed for $10k plus end up getting marked as unsold:

https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/archive?s=1&ad_machine_key=3

TAF for comparison:

https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/archive?s=1&ad_machine_key=2

#7 6 years ago

Plus, someone could potentially convert a regular TAF into a TAFG, since there are only a few parts that would need to be changed out. Some regular TAFs even came with TAFG cabinets due to mix-ups at the factory. So, you have to be careful about checking what is or isn't a genuine TAFG, especially if you're paying a premium for one.

http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/03-862X-1

http://www.ministryofpinball.com/en/spareparts/playfield-parts/pop-bumper-parts/pop-bumper-caps/complete-sets/bally-williams/addams-family-gold-bumpercap-set.html

#8 6 years ago

Yep you can turn a standard into a Gold without too much problem. Id look to make sure the plaque is on the front of the cabinet, it has the fliptronics board and HV cutout switch. Most probably wouldn't go that far to dupe an unsuspecting buyer.

#9 6 years ago
Quoted from schudel5:

Yep you can turn a standard into a Gold without too much problem. Id look to make sure the plaque is on the front of the cabinet, it has the fliptronics board and HV cutout switch. Most probably wouldn't go that far to dupe an unsuspecting buyer.

Well, both TAF and TAFG have a fliptronics board. I'm not sure when they switched over to from version 1 to version 2, though. I've seen TAFG's with version 1 installed as well as some with version 2. Version 2 is backwards compatible, so you should be able to use it to replace any version 1 boards.

TAF's don't have an interlock switch? I almost thought they did.

Example plaque:

http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=21&picno=20798

#10 6 years ago

Thanks all.

Having looked at the photographs more a few things stand out:

- The centre metal ramp looks silver rather than gold
- Both the top right flipper and Thing flipper have black rubbers instead of red
- The Thing cover and bookcase have what looks like decals on top of them (I guess that could just be a taste thing, but still not original)

Don't know how big a deal any of those things are, the biggest thing feels like the ramp - I can't explain why that would be silver.

The seller has claimed that the certificate isn't a reproduction but a "reissued Williams/Bally certificate", but the signatures are an exact match for the one Pinball Fanatic sells (e.g. Pat's signature intersecting L.E.D's, etc). As suspected there is no manual either.

I never realised trying to find a TAFG was going to be this fraught.

#11 6 years ago
Quoted from Durzel:

- The centre metal ramp looks silver rather than gold

The Thing ramp? They are all silver--it's just steel.

Quoted from Durzel:

The Thing cover and bookcase have what looks like decals on top of them (I guess that could just be a taste thing, but still not original)

A lot of folks throw decals over those. However, TAF has a red box, and TAFG has a gold box. The gold thing box is hard to get, and if that's not gold and red instead, that's usually a big clue that it's not a genuine TAFG. The bookcase is blue on a TAF, and gold on a TAFG. gold bookcase parts are available, but if it's blue, it's another obvious sign that it's a regular TAF.

Quoted from Durzel:

The seller has claimed that the certificate isn't a reproduction but a "reissued Williams/Bally certificate"

Quoted from Durzel:

As suspected there is no manual either.

Manuals go missing all the time. I would worry more about the parts in the actual game, rather than separate manuals or paperwork.

Can you upload some of the photos of the game here?

I really suspect that it's just a regular TAF, considering that decals were added to the bookcase and thing box. Most TAFG owners don't usually seem to do that to the TAFG gold parts.

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

#12 6 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

The Thing ramp? They are all silver--it's just steel.

The crossover wire ramp is gold on TAFGs.

#13 6 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

The Thing ramp? They are all silver--it's just steel.

The ball return ramp.. excuse my poor Photoshopping..

silver-ramp (resized).jpgsilver-ramp (resized).jpg

(Note: That's NOT a photo from the one the guy is selling, I just found that on Google)

This was the original ad, earlier in the year: https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/ad/45520

#14 6 years ago
Quoted from schudel5:

The crossover wire ramp is gold on TAFGs.

Oh, I was thinking of the thing ramp between the two entrances of the plastic ramp.

Yes, the wire ramp is another clue.

#15 6 years ago

To be fair, the playfield looks like a TAFG to me, although I'm new to this game.. I read the Flippers comparison thing and the stars on the red carpet going from the top right flipper to the trainwreck are indeed less prominent on this one.

The sale has fallen through on this now anyway, there's too many things I'm uncomfortable with in relation to the asking price.

Thanks for all the help.

#16 6 years ago

That one looks genuine to me. I still think the asking price is too high, though.

#17 6 years ago

I tend to think it's genuine too. That said, I can't explain the silver wire ramp, and to be honest i was turned off at the point I was told the certificate wasn't a reproduction but was "an original reissued by Bally/Williams", whatever that means. Trust gone at that point really, especially as I'm so remote.

#18 6 years ago

The crossover wire ramp and the wire guard along the top edge of the bottom arch are brass plated on TAFGs. I don't see that on the pictures in the link. I agree, it's too much for that particular machine. Not sure why people have to plaster stickers on Thing's box and the floor of the bookcase. It's just that much more to have to remove.

#19 6 years ago

The apron itself should also be gold. The one pictured in the ad looks like it's from the original run. Ask to see a picture of the serial number sticker. TAFG's will have the newer style black on white computer generated stickers, versus the original run that were blue and white. It's possible that someone had an original gold machine, but then swapped out some of the gold parts out for original run parts. I myself am not a big fan of the gold pop bumper caps and prefer the multicolor original style.

#20 6 years ago
Quoted from Bangback:

The apron itself should also be gold. The one pictured in the ad looks like it's from the original run. Ask to see a picture of the serial number sticker. TAFG's will have the newer style black on white computer generated stickers, versus the original run that were blue and white. It's possible that someone had an original gold machine, but then swapped out some of the gold parts out for original run parts. I myself am not a big fan of the gold pop bumper caps and prefer the multicolor original style.

Regular TAF aprons have chains that are clearly a gray color. The chains on the apron for this one look gold to me, though the paint might not be fully intact.

#21 6 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Regular TAF aprons have chains that are clearly a gray color. The chains on the apron for this one look gold to me, though the paint might not be fully intact.

Looking at it again, it looks as though you are correct. The lighting makes it hard to discern, but it looks more gold than it does silver. Also the serial number sticker on the front of the cabinet is in the correct position, and is the right size, even though there is no longer anything visible on it. It's a 3 slot coin door meaning that it was an export game, and most games under #500 went outside the USA, with the exception of the machines taken by the design team and other WMS people at the time, so that also appears to be correct.

I'm not sure why someone would just change out the gold metal to silver, unless it got tarnished at some point where they decided the silver would look better?

#22 6 years ago
Quoted from Bangback:

I'm not sure why someone would just change out the gold metal to silver, unless it got tarnished at some point where they decided the silver would look better?

Maybe the welds were damaged and it needed to be replaced.

#23 6 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Maybe the welds were damaged and it needed to be replaced.

Another subtle thing to check is to see if it has a modular computer style power cord for the back of the cabinet? I think they changed to that for the gold run, but the originals had a pull out cord that's permanently attached?

#24 6 years ago

It does have the extra ball buy in button under the shooter rod.

#25 6 years ago

The original brass plating on most wireform ramps is very thin, so if someone polishing trying to remove oxidation or corrosion gets carried away it will easily come off. Not saying that's the case here but just a thought

I think the gold production run came in 1995, 2-3 years after the original run and hense the system and hardware differences everyone is referencing

The "half and half" games were built in between the 2 runs. I'm not sure if early or later, but those hybrid games are actually the most rare of TAF machines. I've owned all 3 types and those look the best in my opinion, with the gold cabinet and standard colorful playfield plastic pieces.

#26 6 years ago
Quoted from Bangback:

modular computer style power cord for the back of the cabinet?

Just FYI that's called an IEC jack or plug. If you're sitting down I can tell you a little story about them in the world of High end audio (my other hobby) We often use IEC power cords that cost a much as an entire Pin or more! And the power conditioner I use to plug everything into costs as much a NIB Pin, and actually makes a huge difference. Anyone want to buy a $5K power cord to put on their Pin? Who knows how cleaner power may up your personal best score!

#27 6 years ago

Thanks again all.

One thing I think this has proven is that buying a TAFG isn't simple. I guess some of the issues are to be expected in buying a game that's 25 years old anyway, i.e. it's likely to have been refurbished in its life, and back in its youth it was probably more of a utilitarian thing than a cherished possession.

Also doesn't really help that Bally themselves released a halfway house of a TAFG cabinet with regular internals, etc, or that there are so many parts that you can source yourself to convert a TAF to a TAFG. I guess that also begs the question that at which point does a TAF become a TAFG in all but name. A question for the philosophers perhaps

For what it's worth I don't think the seller of that game was misrepresenting it, I do think it's a TAFG based on what I've seen of it. Given the asking price and what I am looking for (I'm basically a purist, I'd want an unmolested machine bar refurbishments/LEDs) it just ended up that it wasn't the one for me.

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