(Topic ID: 68574)

Reprints of Comics made them Worthless?


By vid1900

6 years ago



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  • Latest reply 6 years ago by spfxted
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    #51 6 years ago

    Interesting article. As a kid I always enjoyed reading comic books, lots of fun (but I was never a collector). In that article they mentioned Superman # 75 and I along with everyone else who liked comic books had to get in on the good times back in January of 1993.

    I remember buying the # 75 regular issue and then I just had to buy the "LE" of it which was the same issue but it came in a cool black bag. Darn things cost me $2.95 each and for some strange reason I bought three of them (looks like there's $8.85 that I'm never going to see again!).

    Funny thing is that I still have all 3 of them in those bags. No idea why. Even funnier is that I don't even really know what's in those bags, it could be an Aquaman comic for all I know!

    IMG_2499.JPG
    #52 6 years ago

    When AF#15 drops to $1000 in VF+ then I'm a buyer, so bring on the comic book crash!

    I suppose reprints do affect value, since some guys were tracking down and buying old comics to both read and collect. But they've been reprinting AF#15 and all the ASM's since I was a kid, and you could always buy the Marvel Tales or Marvel Masterpieces for nothing, but the value of an original AF#15 has done nothing but skyrocket through all that time.

    I think it's like people were saying, everyone was collecting comic books in the 80's and 90's, so those are worth the paper they're printed on. And of course the rule of thumb that if a comic says "Collector's Edition" on it, then collectors want absolutely nothing to do with it and won't wipe their arse with it. Very few were saving the original $.05 and $.10-12 comics in pristine condition back then, so many of the most popular titles are very valuable now because most were read and thrown around, thrown out, used to start fires, whatever. Nobody cared, so they're worth a lot now. Same with baseball cards, carded action figures etc.

    Jump to the 90's where EVERYONE saved all their toys in the box, all their comics were never read, and all the baseball cards were saved in climate controlled boxes and you have a value of ZERO.

    Pins are different, you can't just re-run 10,000 pins in a weekend with the cost of the paper, ink and binding. It's the same cost that went into the original build, and the original reason people bought pins (to play) is still the main reason they're being bought now. The trophy collectors are already realizing they aren't getting their money back out of the hugely expensive pin restorations. That market, on the top 3-5 pins, will definitely settle back closer to the cost of the remakes, which will never be very cheap. So the same implosion will not happen, IMHO, as happened to baseball cards, comics, muscle cars, etc.

    #53 6 years ago

    I think if you have something like this that may have value and you're not using it or enjoying it anymore, get out and get on with something else, and don't look back.

    #54 6 years ago
    Quoted from Buckman:

    Interesting article. As a kid I always enjoyed reading comic books, lots of fun (but I was never a collector). In that article they mentioned Superman # 75 and I along with everyone else who liked comic books had to get in on the good times back in January of 1993.
    I remember buying the # 75 regular issue and then I just had to buy the "LE" of it which was the same issue but it came in a cool black bag. Darn things cost me $2.95 each and for some strange reason I bought three of them (looks like there's $8.85 that I'm never going to see again!).
    Funny thing is that I still have all 3 of them in those bags. No idea why. Even funnier is that I don't even really know what's in those bags, it could be an Aquaman comic for all I know!

    IMG_2499.JPG 596 KB

    Yeah, I was in comic speculation in the early 90's. Bought a whole bunch of those wrapped Superman #75's for just over $1.00 each......sold most a week later for $12.00 each.

    Also got in Big on the Valiant comics........and lost.

    Still have a handful of comics (Just two small boxes worth) a few 12 cent Spidermans and an Iron Man #1 but nothing of real value.

    #55 6 years ago

    baseball cards got creative and introduced die cut and other nonsense. It worked for a while. Same with comic books. I bought one spiderman with a gravestone shaped cover on it because aunt may finally died. I think there are a dozen different issues where aunt may dies. Then I bought all 4 "special" issues of spiderman with the holographic cover. I think they're worth a dollar each still. I see the varient comic or valient comics for 5 dollars a box of 100 at estate auctions. Original comic art has held value. Its almost incredible since there must be hundreds of thousands of example of art out there.

    #56 6 years ago
    Quoted from fattrain:

    The one thing people seem to be forgetting when comparing the pinball market to beanie babies or comics is that pinballs inherently have intrinsic value in parts alone. Real wood, plenty of metal & copper wire e.t.c. Even if nobody wanted your pinball machine to actually restore or play there is still materials to be had from it (unlike comics, stamps, beanie babies, & keychains)

    oh yes, so much value you could throw it all off a roof

    #57 6 years ago
    Quoted from Methos:

    That is mostly what I have. Spent too much time and $ on it before pins. I want to sell most of it, but the auction houses and sites take so much. That leading auction site takes up to 30% of the selling price!

    Sounds like you have some potential customers right here! Start a thread and throw out here what you have. You might be surprised!

    #58 6 years ago
    Quoted from phishrace:

    More importantly, pinball machines are expensive to manufacture. Unlike baseball cards, comic books or beanie babies, they'll never be overproduced. Overproduction is what killed all three of those things. Last year, maybe 10k pins were built worldwide. in 1992, over 100k pins were built. Prices for pins will likely drop, but they won't drop like those other things.
    I put all my money in pogs. I've got a sealed box of pogpourri series 3 that's worth $100k!

    Over production is a relative term and it's happened over and over in the pinball industry. Circus Voltaire was practically given away because of overproduction. Rapid Fire cabinets were shoehorned into a bunch of games. Even Transformers LE and Avengers LE you could say was overproduced - you can still buy NIB and likely will be able to for some time until the price drops even more.

    Just because quantity is lower and price is higher vs. a comic book doesnt maen overproduction isn't likely.

    #59 6 years ago
    Quoted from MurphyPeoples:

    Sounds like you have some potential customers right here! Start a thread and throw out here what you have. You might be surprised!

    I'm not giving them away - want to at least get my cost back.

    I don't have them cataloged or anything yet.....

    #60 6 years ago

    Reprints do not diminish the price of an original.
    Like any other collectable hobby, speculators always pee in the pool. The comic market is flooded right now, nothing more. Condition IS everything. Key issues will always demand more $$$$. I sold 3 Superman comics, vintage 1956, 7 yrs ago to buy my 200K home. (Should have kept the books, they have gone up, unlike the house.) I own 2 copies of Hulk 181, Wolverines 1st appearance, one is slabbed @ 9.8 & the other raw @ 9.4. A price of 8K for the later would be like selling me your NIB BBB for a C-note. FYI a graded CGC (slabbed) Hulk 181 in 9.9 sold for 100K, 6 months ago.
    The sky is not falling.

    #61 6 years ago
    Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

    oh yes, so much value you could throw it all off a roof
    » YouTube video

    This would normally be like "burning books" to me......but I couldn't argue with throwing "Bad Girls" off a roof.

    #62 6 years ago
    Quoted from spfxted:

    Yes, I had pretty much everything....complete runs of Fantastic Four, Amazing Fantasy, Spider Man, Hulk, Iron Man, X-Men, etc. (1960's) At the time, Marvel was in NY and I knew people there. I was able to buy Jack Kirby FF pages for $50! If I only kept everything, my collection would be worth many millions today. I thought I was doing great when I sold my EC collection and bought a car. I then sold what was left of my comic collection (and some movie posters, to buy my first house)
    ...I had 2 copies of Amazing Fantasy (first Spider-Man issue). Bought them for $5 each and later sold them for $100 each! I thought I made a bloody fortune! Sold my Kirby pages for $500 each! (insert screaming face here) But, at the time, this was a HUGE profit.
    ...so recently I just checked and found about 6 long boxes of comics! Not sure what's there, but it's gonna be fun!

    If you find a AF15 in there PM me!

    You can't worry about money lost! You owned some serious historic art and best comic books ever. I hope to one day have ASM complete, missing a bunch of the early Ditko issues at the moment. Love the old Kirby art in the Journey into Mysterys and FFs. The era is just wicked cool. (Kirby themed pinball!)

    #63 6 years ago

    BUYING ALL YOUR COMICS. pm me please

    #64 6 years ago
    Quoted from Pinballocks:

    Reprints do not diminish the price of an original.
    Like any other collectable hobby, speculators always pee in the pool. The comic market is flooded right now, nothing more. Condition IS everything. Key issues will always demand more $$$$. I sold 3 Superman comics, vintage 1956, 7 yrs ago to buy my 200K home. (Should have kept the books, they have gone up, unlike the house.) I own 2 copies of Hulk 181, Wolverines 1st appearance, one is slabbed @ 9.8 & the other raw @ 9.4. A price of 8K for the later would be like selling me your NIB BBB for a C-note. FYI a graded CGC (slabbed) Hulk 181 in 9.9 sold for 100K, 6 months ago.
    The sky is not falling.

    In those limited situations you're right, a reprint of some ultra-rare, iconic comic book is not going to devalue the original because almost everybody collecting that comic is in it for the rarity and the intangible factor of owning something like that. It's not for the story. Its not for the substantive content. With a pinball machine far more people are in it for the substantive content. A good deal of Midevil Madness's value is in the fact that people want to play it, not just have it. In fact, I'd venture to say most of the value is that people want to play it. When you increase the availability it almost certainly devalues the original because now people who value the playability more than the collectablility have another option. It doesn't, however, obliterate the value of the original. The original is always going to be worth more as long as it's in nice shape. That being said, less people are going to plunk down $15K for a NM original when they can have a brand new one for $8K. There are LOTS of people who will not pay much more than $8K for a Midevil Madness now and that necessarily devalues the originals to an extent. It doesn't destroy the value, just dents it.

    #65 6 years ago

    Sold my Avengers collection, to get my pinball collection. 2 things started the comic book ascension: CGC and the internet.

    What people consider "Collector" comics is so much crap it is not funny. Death of Superman, Todd McFarlane Spider-man, Jim Lee X-men had over 1 million print runs. They were never going to be high end collectibles. People who did not even know anything about comics were buying these. Anybody that thought they were going to cash out on these, but now there is a "crash" should have realized there never was a high demand for these.

    Silver Age and Gold Age books that are in great condition (CGC Grade standards), are usually rare and still worth a lot of money. They are still appreciating. Look at the Mile High collection and tell me there is a crash.

    #66 6 years ago

    I'll preface this by saying I work in the comic industry, as both a licensee of Marvel and DC, and others. I've also spent a lifetime in the hobby, and am friends with some of the biggest rare comic dealers in the hobby.

    Here's my take: the comic collecting hobby is in dire straits--not as bad as cards or stamps, but still completely screwed. There's a perfect storm of demographics, excessive reprints and digital access, and changing priorities. It used to be if you were a fan, you had to buy back issues to read and enjoy the material and were, de facto, a collector. Now, fans can access the material and the characters through dozens of outlets: black and white reprints, color trade paperback reprints, hardcover reprints, "omnibus" editions, online access, etc. Comics have returned to what they were originally: a form of entertainment, and fewer and fewer people care about condition or value. The best of the best is booming, but even that market is limited to a few hundred high-end collectors who are constantly outbidding each for the opportunity to re-press a book in search of a higher grade, defacing pedigree copies for pure speculation. What used to be considered high-grade even 5 yrs ago is no longer desirable, mid-grade keys often dont' bring what they did, and mid-grade Golden Age DC's from the 1940's are often considered a horrible investment. What I've bought at dramatically discounted prices in the last 3 or 4 years is shocking and I never would have believed it possible 10 years ago.

    As for parallels to pins, there are both differences and similarities. Pins are inherently a form of entertainment and much less easily reproduced or accessible in different forms. And, those forms, such as digital ones, can only help the hobby because it is so far gone already. I can't tell you how many people I know, including kids, would have no idea what pinball is without digital access. No doubt it has brought people into the fold.

    As a hobby and a market, however, there will definitely be parallels. MM is the perfect example. And, we will see what the constant influx of new games does. I'm sure lots of people will sell older machines to support their NIB fix.

    My take for both hobbies is the same---buy what you like, and have no expectation of a ROI. It's just entertainment to be enjoyed by you, your family, and your friends.

    #67 6 years ago
    Quoted from jimjim66:

    Silver Age and Gold Age books that are in great condition (CGC Grade standards), are usually rare and still worth a lot of money. They are still appreciating. Look at the Mile High collection and tell me there is a crash.

    I will tell you right now that high-grade SA books are not rare, slabbed or not. The census is constantly growing as collectors from the 60s and early 70s die, retire, or cash out. Still desirable books, but by no means rare. No Marvel key is rare in High Grade. None. There are 10s of 1000s of copies still in existence (granted most not high-grade), and the CGC census doesn't reflect any that are locked away in collections. Obviously, the most desirable books in terms of demand and condition can be worth a fortune, but virtually NONE are rare. That said, I'd sure buy many for my own collection.

    #68 6 years ago
    Quoted from Pinballocks:

    Reprints do not diminish the price of an original.
    Like any other collectable hobby, speculators always pee in the pool. The comic market is flooded right now, nothing more. Condition IS everything. Key issues will always demand more $$$$. I sold 3 Superman comics, vintage 1956, 7 yrs ago to buy my 200K home. (Should have kept the books, they have gone up, unlike the house.) I own 2 copies of Hulk 181, Wolverines 1st appearance, one is slabbed @ 9.8 & the other raw @ 9.4. A price of 8K for the later would be like selling me your NIB BBB for a C-note. FYI a graded CGC (slabbed) Hulk 181 in 9.9 sold for 100K, 6 months ago.
    The sky is not falling.

    Get to know most comic dealers, and they will tell you otherwise. EVERY dealer I know laughed at the schmuck who paid for the Hulk 181. Great investment until one of the 100's of 9.8s and 9.6s gets pressed into a 9.9. Within hours of the census being updated, that sucker will lose 50,000 bucks. It might take a year or two, but it will happen.

    Another depressing trend in the hobby--increasingly, so few comic collectors show up at comic books shows, that dealers can no longer turn a profit at the larger shows that they helped establish. Comic books dealers account for maybe 10-15% of the floor space at San Diego Comic Con, the largest show in the country. In the 9 years I've set up there, it has changed dramatically. Same is true for both of the big shows in Chicago, and to a lesser extent New York Comic Con. I set up at about 10 of the biggest shows in the country every year, and it is apparent that they're being crowded out by purveyors of new merchandise, t-shirts, sells of trade paperbacks, entertainment companies, manga, etc/, and a good percentage of the crowds are tire-kickers, cos-play fanatics, etc.

    #69 6 years ago
    Quoted from albummydavis:

    but virtually NONE are rare.

    I am not talking quantity of early silver age or golden age books, I am talking quality. You can't be telling me that there are hundreds or thousands of CGC 9.4 near meant books from that time period.

    Bronze Age- yes
    Later Silver Age- yes
    Early Silver Age- no

    CGC turned the collecting up as it became a standard and not subjective. It also helped detect the restoration that was going on in the high grade market.

    #70 6 years ago

    I bought this book from Mile High Comics 7 years ago for 200 bucks- (Same CGC grade so Apples to Apples)

    ebay.com link » Avengers 55 Cgc 9 8 Nm Mt 1st Ultron Highest Grade On Record Low Reserve

    Here it is sold for $3699.00

    I sold it for $1800.00 3 years later-

    I picked this issue of Avengers as there a lot of them found in the Mile High 2 collection, so I would not say it is rare. It is just rare in a super high condition of a 9.8, and that is why it sold for so much.

    The comics to pinball analogy is worse than the pinball to car analogy.

    #71 6 years ago

    I think you guys missed the threads intent ...

    #72 6 years ago
    Quoted from Jam_Burglar:

    I would say it's good to look at comparisons but that you shouldn't read too much into it.
    One thing that I think does carry over in the comparison is that when you start marketing an item as a "collector's item" it is less likely to be valuable. The true collectors items are usually things that nobody thought to collect, so they were destroyed, and it's hard to find original ones in good shape. Fabricated rarity never seems to have quite the same appeal.

    Solid logic. This has played out many times in other collector markets.
    Scott

    #73 6 years ago

    I agree that the market has changed considerably. Not only the buyers & sellers but the genre as a whole. I know many shop owners, artists, & authors. I have been working the Con trail for a game mfg for more than 10 yrs. Speculators have done a lot of damage & kids don't read anymore. Pressing a book to attempt to increase it's value is taboo. Not that it isn't done daily. Can you do that with a Pin? Dealers have become much more cut-throat as more crap gets pumped out that they are forced to buy. But I don't see pin dealers getting a one per store variant, cover price $2.99 and selling it on Ebay for $140+ to collectors at a 10000% markup. As far as serious comic collectors showing up at shows. Who in their right mind wants to deal with the pushy, rude, plague bearing, unwashed hoards who have no idea what a splash page is, that invade these shows. I would burn my clothes then shower every day after the Con closed so I wouldn't smell like ass & taco meat. I haven't been to a Pin Con yet, so am I to expect the same type of crowd?

    #74 6 years ago
    Quoted from tamoore:

    Comics may be somewhat different than pinball machines. We don't really know yet, but we'll find out.

    As a vintage comic collector and a pinball enthusiast, I can say "yes" they are different. My expensive comics are in plastic slabs that can't be opened. I can't read my valuable comics -- they are essentially museum pieces. Whereas my pinball machines are there to be played.. over and over and over.

    One of the biggest differences is that any manipulation to comics is considered taboo. Restoration kills the value of a comic.. but in the pinball world, restoration (and to a lesser degree, regular maintenance) is considered a good thing. It keeps the game playable.. and that's what matters.

    #75 6 years ago

    Don't get me wrong--great hobby, and there are lots of great, valuable books. The ebay link above is pure movie hype, and if that book follows the pattern most similar books do, it will dive in value after the next Avengers movie. There are always opportunities to make money, even in a troubled hobby. As a whole though, comic-collecting is in trouble, and most big-time dealers are hoping to get out before it hits the fan.

    And, pinballocks, don't be fooled--pressing is not just done daily. It's a cottage industry, which is no longer taboo. Just about every book now submitted to CGC, be it Golden Age or Modern, is pressed. CGC even has it's own sister company that performs pressing and restoration in order to raise grades. All of the major auction houses practice it and will strongly "encourage" consignors to "optimize" their books, and almost all major dealers either have a go-to presser or do it themselves. I know several people who now make their living pressing books and have multiple presses working around the clock.

    And, we're not missing the point of the thread. It's all supply and demand, and pinball, like comics, stamps, and muscle cars, is subject to sudden, dramatic shifts in either. Re-issue a machine, flood the market, or lose collectors, and values will fall; attract new followers, use new technologies, sign exciting licenses, and some values will rise. There's no cookie-cutter model, just lots of cautionary tales from other hobbies.

    #76 6 years ago

    Comics are paper. What intrinsic value does paper have?

    We could say the same thing of art, but art is unique in nature and (for the most part) is not mass produced as comics are. So the paper is destroyed...what is the actual cost of a comic? .40 cents maybe?

    Pinballs are a completely different animal. There are more contrasts between comics and pins then there are similarities.

    So the value of comics is taking a hit...- who "lost" when the value increased? Buyers, collectors, and those who thought were buying an investment. The CGC is the worst thing that ever happened to comics, besides modern artists who write stories for 30 year olds instead of 12 year olds.

    The world still turns....

    #77 6 years ago

    Are there basic differences, yeah. But there are dramatic similarities, also. Both are forms of entertainment from the past (largely), both industries are shadows of their former self and, most important when discussing valuation, both are artificial economies based on speculation. When was it that the Dutch economy was destroyed by speculation in the tulip market? Same rationale--the mistaken belief that the tulip market was too important, and that tulips had "intrinsic" value.

    Buy what makes you happy and what you can afford, and enjoy it. Once speculation becomes involved, anything can happen.

    #78 6 years ago
    Quoted from albummydavis:

    When was it that the Dutch economy was destroyed by speculation in the tulip market?

    1637

    #79 6 years ago
    Quoted from albummydavis:

    Once speculation becomes involved, anything can happen.

    Speculation leads to bubbles virtually every time. There is no item that simply goes up, every item has fluctuation (even gold, which actually is intended as a value reserve). Some items when they fluctuate down they go down to zero.

    Investing is not an easy thing and as many have said for years you should not treat pins as investments. They are toys and luckily, because of the influx of players the past few years, the toys have retained some value on a secondary market.

    #80 6 years ago

    MMR, $3K by XMAS?

    But seriously, the moral of the story is don't buy anything expecting it to go up in value... buy it because you enjoy it. If it takes it a hit, tough crap, that happens all the time. But it's hard to feel bad for people hoarding stuff (that they may have overpayed for) to one day turn it into a 'bigger' payday.

    #81 6 years ago
    Quoted from Methos:

    I'm not giving them away - want to at least get my cost back.
    I don't have them cataloged or anything yet.....

    I didn't say to "give them away". It just seemed like you had a little interest in your collection and that it wouldn't hurt to post a new topic on the boards and float them out there. Haggle a little bit - you might be surprised. That's all.

    #82 6 years ago
    Quoted from Jam_Burglar:

    In those limited situations you're right, a reprint of some ultra-rare, iconic comic book is not going to devalue the original because almost everybody collecting that comic is in it for the rarity and the intangible factor of owning something like that. It's not for the story. Its not for the substantive content. With a pinball machine far more people are in it for the substantive content. A good deal of Midevil Madness's value is in the fact that people want to play it, not just have it. In fact, I'd venture to say most of the value is that people want to play it. When you increase the availability it almost certainly devalues the original because now people who value the playability more than the collectablility have another option. It doesn't, however, obliterate the value of the original. The original is always going to be worth more as long as it's in nice shape. That being said, less people are going to plunk down $15K for a NM original when they can have a brand new one for $8K. There are LOTS of people who will not pay much more than $8K for a Midevil Madness now and that necessarily devalues the originals to an extent. It doesn't destroy the value, just dents it.

    That makes a lot of sense.
    (Seriously. Just in case it sounds sarcastic...)

    It's Medieval though

    #83 6 years ago

    The only collectibles that will have value are the ones that arent sold as collectibles or are truly limited. Think of collectibles that are thrown in with some other purchase in the cereal box in with the box of tea or at the gas station when you fill up. Collectibles sold as collectibles will continue to be manufactured until the market is saturated. The other strategy is to go after collectibles that flop on the market and are pulled from manufacturing limiting their numbers........this bodes well for my hulk LE. Only 250 in the world and with the hate they are being put on route and of the pool of 250 less will be out there in cq condition. At least that's what I'm telling myself.

    #84 6 years ago
    Quoted from MurphyPeoples:

    I didn't say to "give them away". It just seemed like you had a little interest in your collection and that it wouldn't hurt to post a new topic on the boards and float them out there. Haggle a little bit - you might be surprised. That's all.

    I understand. All good -

    There have been reprints of movie posters for decades, but it has not effected the market whatsoever.

    #85 6 years ago

    Speaking of collections becoming worthless: I have a vinyl record collection I spent so much money on, but is hard to sell for any cash.

    But if this theory applies to comicbooks, what does it say about pinball machines based on comicbook characters? They must be worthless in a few years as well I guess Maybe Stern should stay away forever from comicbook themes?

    #86 6 years ago

    If anyone is truly interested in what comics I have left, please let me know.
    ....and, J, it's true!...I sold my vinyl record collection and except for the Beatles, Stones, etc....I got $1,000!! (I filled his station wagon!)

    #87 6 years ago

    If pins become worthless, I am going to be getting more worthless real estate to fill with worthless pins. I will line the walls with my worthless comics and eventually die happy.

    #88 6 years ago
    Quoted from JoeJet:

    I will line the walls with my worthless comics and eventually die happy.

    ...but worthless...

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