Derby Day is incredible! I have that same Jackie Chan translite on my pinball room wall!

Why is Mario Andretti being played by Jackie Chan?

I thought the exact same thing!

Did either of you read my comment on the picture I posted? Haha

no, one of the last ones. maybe the stargate bank?

Agree. Having that many people in A with that spread made day 2 not fun. I qualified for A but didn't belong there. If I would've had 1/2 a point less I would've been at the top of B.

Or play worse day 1. I was not restricted to any division and went into day 1 saying I didn't care what division I ended up in as long as it wasn't A but at the same time I'm not going to lose on purpose. Having a record of 33-27 should not put you into A imo.

Sandbagging is to blame for this. That's another issue all together.

I also think that top 100 ifpa need to be restricted to A.

Maybe next year adjust the restrictions and also lower the number of people that can make A and increase the lower divisions with D being the largest.

Or like I've heard others suggest, treat it like PAPA. Declare a division before you start.

decrease A is correct. Increase D is not a good idea IMO. The lowest division should also be decreased. Just follow the bell curve of skill to make the divisions. D players were a similarly large skill spectrum as A was for that group.

I see a lot of people saying this, but providing little evidence. Not only are people saying this, they are advocating changes in the format to combat it. Changes that would make Pinburgh not Pinburgh, like 'allow people to choose a division beforehand.' This just leaves us with 4 separate tournaments. It doesn't give the first timers the opportunity to play with the World Champions. It isn't the largest tournament ever, every year.

As for sandbagging itself, [FACT] there is no indication that it is a widespread problem. [OPINION] I would be surprised if it was, because the potential gains are not very high [it isn't cheap to come to Pittsburgh and 1) stay here for 3-4 nights, and 2) pay for entry to Pinburgh/Replay, and 3) pay for food/incidentals, 4) all while missing work].

What caused 33 wins to make the cut was less than 1/4 of the field made it into A with a cut-line of 33.5. Therefore, 33 finds itself inside the cut for A. That's it. All people with 33 are placed into A. They used to do a playoff for this (can you imagine 53 people playing off for 5 spots?) and they used to let people choose which way to go, but now the rule is everyone tied on a cut-line will be put in the higher division.

How about, as a different suggested change: if you hear someone talking about how they want to lose a game to end up in B (C or D), say something. To somebody. Personally I would say something to them, but if you didn't feel comfortable with that (completely understandable) - say something to a TD. Anybody doing that is taking away from the Pinburgh the rest of us are paying for. Maybe the TDs could issue them a warning and that would solve the problem. Maybe it would come to something else. Whatever it came to would be on that player for their decisions and not you for speaking up.

One other note - qualifying for finals from 33 points happened.

I was busy playing in my own round 5, but saw two groups in the same row with people plunging balls and walking away. Pretty obvious sandbagging.

I also heard 2 other stories from people that were in groups with a sand bagger. I one case, the sand bagger beat a legit player on a game and was pissed that their plunged ball beat him, lol. Just based on the number of people discussing it between round 4 and 5, it seems obvious that the current setup and rules, incentivize it.

Actually you are listing the reasons it is VERY high incentive to sandbag. If you qualified below 100 in A then your odds of making top 40 and any $ was extremely low. If you qualified ANYWHERE in B or C, your chances of qualifying and $ was already much higher from the start and then toss on that you are not going to be playing A/pro players to try and rack up points in rounds 6-10.

I was amazed when asking around "Would your rather finish 100 in A, or just qualify in B/C/D (i.e. lose in first round and take home $200/$250/$300 for 40th)?" and the resounding anwser was to take the cash from B/C/D. Sandbagging is obsious and logically makes sense for multiple reasons. I personally am not capable of it, but find it hard to fault anyone to work within the confines of the system.

Hence, why the system should tweak each year to help better refine the overall incentive of the player. I am not sure currently what the way to do that is, but I have some ideas and there are various ways to change incentive structure to easily push people into the desired behavior.

Assuming you were sure that this wasn't a "winning as player 4 on last ball" situation, did you say something to a TD (or them)?

Multiple reports from people I trust saying that people are plunging off balls. I had one person tell me that they need no more than a 4 this last round so that they don't qualify higher. Other reports from people I trust that had people tell them they were sandbagging. That's enough for me to tell me it happens. People did not report as they didn't want to be tattles. Now, I've decide to absolutely report this next year should I see or hear about it again, even though it could just become a he said she said. But overall, tournament was amazing even with this going on.

I guarantee it's much more problematic at the A/B cutoff. So I think the efforts need to be spent there to stop it in coming years.

The more I think of it. Declaring for a division is not the greatest idea. I agree it would take too much pinburgh out of pinburgh.

But I do think the ifpa rank restrictions need to be adjusted. Top 100 for A, top 1000 for C, top 500 for B.

Maybe give money to everyone that makes A? Not just top 40?

What is in the rules against this?

"4. Interference, Collusion, and Cheating

Any player who intentionally interferes with tournament play or otherwise disrupts the tournament setting will be warned and/or ejected from the tournament, at the discretion of tournament officials.

Any form of cheating, including game restarts, tampering with games, tampering with recorded results, scorekeeper intimidation or collusion, or anything else not covered here, will be addressed by tournament officials as appropriate, including disqualification and/or ejection from the tournament.

Any collaborative effort between players in an attempt to unfairly affect the outcome of the competition, or to “lock out” a third player, or to otherwise refrain from making the best possible competitive effort on each and every game played, will be looked upon very poorly by tournament officials, and may result in disciplinary action, including disqualification and/or ejection from the tournament."

I don't know how to bold on this site, but the third paragraph covers it. Reason for edit: I forgot I added the first paragraph.

nope. My head was focused on my play and getting as many points as I could. The last thing I personally wanted was to create drama while I was focusing on my own round. I noticed it and saw some comotion around 1 of the groups so assumed it was handled. I planned to go over to the other group when done but my personal round went longer.

I also think that with the correct adjustments the event wont need to rely on others to raise the flag.

My point of even discussing this is that it is obviously happening and I hope there is some evolution as things seem to have grown too quick and lacked the small tweaks that need to happen to not only keep this the biggest but also the best event.

I had a GREAT time, but that does not mean there cant be room for adjustments and improvements.

This would be a good idea. Or maybe better than money... Give a different medal to everyone in A. You would be amazed how a $5 medal is enough to swing back the incentive from a potential $$$ incentive to sandbag.

"I qaualified for Pinbugh A division 2017 and all I got was this stinkin medal" would be proudly displayed by me

They're *not*?!

*Edit* Wow only top 50... I could actually play in *C*... That's nuts. I'd have to do SO SO much sandbagging unless I just had an awful run of games I didn't know at ALL.... O_o

I say we collude now....

Who wants to sit in the basement with me and take D for a run in 2018?

I keep demanding a DD division, but that leaves me in the cleavage.

Top 50 are. Yeah I was shocked too.

I dont know if top 50 were either.... I had a top 50 player in my 2nd round of Division B on Friday.

who specifically?

Definitely top 50. Maybe that player you had was like 51 or something before pinburgh started.

Just checked, and seems he was Top 50 last year. Dropped further down this year, so not restricted to A.

My bad. (somebody was saying he was top 50 when I drew him on my match list)

For the lulz, Colin was *barely* even in the top 50....49th. Wonder if anyone will start to believe me now that the difference between a top 150 player and a top 10 player is individual game knowledge, and a small measure of improved consistency...

No worries. We definitely thought we saw top 50 players in B too but looked them up and they were just outside it. Top 100 for sure in A. That change should be made today. Haha

Or that ifpa is not a ranking of skill at all.

Like all skill competitions- the difference in ability narrows as you get near the top. The difference is often in pure execution- consistency and focus become bigger players.

This was my first Pinburgh and I had a really great time. I plan to make it a regular event.

I qualified at the bottom of A, which made for a really miserable Friday. Basically, I overperformed Thursday and underperformed on Friday. It as funny to hear people tell me I should have sandbagged the last round to stay in B.

No matter what rules exist, or where the cutoff line is, there will be people that try to manipulate where they finish Thursday.

There is a simple way to reduce the sandbagging: Don't publish results throughout the day on Thursday.

Since the point differences between the bottom of A and the top of C are so small, you would be forced to play your best if you don't know where you are. You would know your own points, but you wouldn't know where everyone else is, and your estimate for the cutoff line would be less accurate than today.

One other suggestion is to reduce the size of A by using the number of first place scores as a tiebreaker for the cutoff score. This means a little more data entry, but not much.

unfortunately, those with more experience at Pinburgh seem to already know the general range and if anything it would just make it more likely that people just talk to each other to see whom is where. Part of the fun is also seeing how you track from round to round.

I had 29 points going into round 5 and a more experienced Piburgh person hit the nail on the head when he told me to take a zero and I would be in C, take a 3 and I will be in B, and 5 or more and welcome to A.

Yeah, I agree with this....but the issue is that it's CONSTANTLY used as a "ranking of skill". That's what division restrictions do. They're supposed to be restricting people with higher skill from playing below their level...but the problem is, since the system doesn't actually measure that, only recorded performance, there's guys like me sitting at 350th-ish that in no way ever belong in a C division, that could have been there. There's a fine line to be walked in regards to how far down you go to restrict people to A, but top 100 IFPA out of 800 possible players seems pretty reasonable to me, while top 50 is just low low low. Would be interesting to see the data from the last few years on how many of the top 50 vs how many of the top 100 attended.

On the flipside, if you have a ~40 player tournament and anyone top 500 IFPA is restricted to A? That's kind of ludicrous in the reverse manner.

The real bottom line is that people need to stop using IFPA ranking as a restrictor at all, and some other system needs to be thought out for that purpose. Maybe a new algorithm that could assess the strength of competition against the difficulty factor of the tourney format...course, that just leads back to initial seeding of the "ranking of skill" format being based off the "ranking of performance" system that actually exists, so I don't know if the two concepts are truly separable.

I finished 19th in A out of 800 players. Not as good as last year when I finished 14th but still a decent haul of Whoppers and cash. Trent and I got screwed having to play a tiebreaker on a malfunctioning Hobbit game that throws balls off the ramp and into the outlane, but everybody has a story like that.

The important thing is to learn from your mistakes in a top tournament like this, and learn from playing with people who are better than you. That's one of the things that is completely lost on people who are trying to beef into a lower division, or are obsessed with how many divisions there are, who belongs where, etc. It's extremely valuable to play with top players. I can learn from playing with Raymond Davidson and Trent and you can learn from playing with me, even if at the end of the day you wish your finals had lasted longer.

In my case, I realized I finally have to deal with a serious deficiency in my game, drop catching. And honestly, after all this time, it's going to take me like a week to make that a serious part of my game. I think it's going to improve my game dramatically, and i'm almost embarrassed that 2.5 years into my pro career I've let this slide because I was too lazy to deal with it or didn't realize how it was affecting my game. So now I'm gonna work on it (already started last night and thrilled with the results). I'm excited about it. I'm not pissed that I was "forced" to play with -and lost - to better players.

So stop beefing people, unless you really have no ambition to get better. And congrats to Colin who showed everybody you don't have to be a "favorite" to win something like this. You just have to work on your game, stay loose, and have fun.

I know I'm not the caliber of player you are Levi, but man did drop catching sky rocket my performance. I tend to do it too much, but it's right above dead bouncing for me as most important skill to have.

I dunno what you're calling a 'pro' competition career, but I've been playing quite a lot for 5 out of the last 6 years, and drop catching has not been something I've substantially felt like I've been sorely missing. I know out of the 'advanced' flipper skills, it's by far my weakest, but I can't really think of a single time where I'm like "I could've saved that and had an epic won had I drop caught that."

Conversely, I can think of about a million times where I've TRIED to drop catch something, f'ed it up, and lost my ball. I get that it's a tool that's great for slowing things down when you already had the flipper up for whatever reason and couldn't get it through a full cycle to do a live catch...but I've been screwed over a LOT less on live catch attempts than failed drop catch attempts, personally. Maybe I'm just playing too many EM/DMD, and not enough early solid state, where drop catches seem to be more useful. (Split flipper bitch avoidance FTW.)

*Edit* Should probably mention that I'm not a 'control' player to start with, I'm very on the fly most of the time....

Drop catching is HUGE on an EM game without traditional inlanes. My lack of confidence and experience executing this move to perfection on Williams Liberty Bell directly cost me advancing to the next round on where i would have been guaranteed significantly more money and more Whoppers.

Like I said, part of a tournament like this is identifying ways you can improve. I've identified an opportunity for substantial improvement and I'm excited about the possibility of going next level.

Did you learn anything this tournament, or identify and deficiencies in your game?

I identified that I still nudge when I should have nidged.

I wasn't there. But I do play against Colin semi-regularly? I definitely figured out at Bat City Open that I really need to work on my EM game again...it used to be my best era, now it's probably my worst. Games like Spinner, Capersville, and other 'wierd' EMs keep screwing me over..

I do own a Crescendo...the idea of drop catching on there however is kind of...err... it's 2" flippers with a HUGE gap and no margin for error. I'll have to practice on Farfalla or something

Drop catching has always been difficult for me. I'm currently working on it but I need someone to explain the technique for me. Are you releasing the flipper AS the ball is making contact with the flipper, right AFTER the ball makes contact, before?

Someone told me to release the flipper right as the ball is making contact but I seem to lose a lot of balls thinking about it this way.

Any tips for someone trying to learn to Drop catch?

I also learned that Ready Aim Fire is probably the worst pinball machine ever made, lol.

On the other hand, RoGo is my buddy and lets me shoot the horseshoe as much as I want

Think egg or balloon toss. Touch the ball with the flipper high then drop the flipper with the ball. So essentially the ball stays touching the flipper the whole time. Depending on the trajectory of the ball it will either run a little bit up the inlane to a perfect trap, or stop dead in the middle of the flipper when down, ready for your next shot. Balls traveling cross court are the easiest to perform drop catches on imo. Or if the ball is coming straight down and is about to make contact with the knuckle of the flipper bat (next to the lane guide)

I think it's more accurate to say it's a measure of 'past performance'. PAPA's division restrictions have always been based on past performance (previous division wins, etc). Adding in IFPA ranking adds another measurement to that list... but because it's a measure of performance, which inherently requires PARTICIPATION.. it's a poor measure of actual skill, and has many flaws that make it hard to do A vs B comparisons.

I don't think it's really looked at a major contributor anyway.. it's just another tool in the shed. I agree it would be nice to have another replacement... but no one has found the unicorn yet.

You also need to agree upon the things to measure..
Do you gauge skill vs actual performance?
Performance 'now' vs past?

It's not uncommon for players outside the top eschelon to be good, but just not great in different formats or even that month/week. What do you do with them, etc.

The best thing you can do is steer player incentives. Traditionally we do that by saying the bigger money is at the top.. so you want to chase the money.

The problem is the glass ceiling that many feel they can't break through... so they want to chase money where it's more obtainable... all while still allowing lesser tiers of players still have their own level of competition.

Maybe have a concilation tournament that is restricted by your pinburg division... so the lower half of A still has something to chase.

Ultimately I think the 'equal' divisions is the problem, and the divisions should be more split along the spectrum of how the skill curve could be estimated.

Or maybe come up with another prize system that pays out based on your wins instead of qualifying.

I'm not really sure what the best angle is. The only thing I'm really sure of is the 200/200/200/200 split is probably not the best attack. Maybe something like 80/300/250/170 and ensure the prize incentive is to want to be in A or B. Or give other aids like resetting Wins after qualifying.

practice practice practice When learning skills, it's best to not even focus on the objective of a game, but rather just focus on the shots and the ball control technique you are trying to master. Play a game and only practice the technique when the ball's movement allows it. Keep doing it.. then try it on different games.. and keep repeating.

For a drop catch you are releasing JUST before/as the ball gets there... the egg toss comment is a good analogy to think of. You also have to consider the angle the ball is approaching the flipper at.. If you think of wide as the angles towards the center drain.. and narrow as angles as towards the outlanes... where vertical is measured as the flipper is at rest.. The wider the angle.. the easier it will be to trap the ball with a catch. Balls that come too shallow/narrow.. will have a greater tendency to just roll off the flipper fast when caught.

Search for 'pinball 101'. It's a video made by Keith Elwin and his brother Randy that has great production value and goes through the various techniques.

No, practice on Crescendo. That game has inlanes and is a GREAT game for you to practice your skills on. I have a Dimension so I know. This stuff will seem easier on a 3 inch game after practicing on that one.

I DESTROYED this one in round 9 and it helped me secure my bye with a 10 point round. Yeah it's a stupid game but pretty easy to deal with. Left flipper just sent it up toward the orbit and right I sent it to the right of the pops. Lots of ski passing. Got 2.5 billion on this one. First time I played it! Kinda sums up pinburgh you gotta learn and adapt super quick on stuff you are unfamiliar with.

Super dopey game but I liked the sound and music. Looked like something a company about to go out of business would put out with all their leftover parts - probably exactly what it was! (I think Gottlieb actually closed for a month around this time)

The drop catch thing I need the most help with is what the hell to do with the ball when I actually manage to drop catch it. It's this unnatural quarter-second of having a ball stationary on a downward slope that befuddles my brain. The whole point of using it is to regain control but most of the time I flip it right back away out of control rather than helplessly watch it roll down the flipper and center drain. Advice?

The games that I use it the most are ones that after the drop catch I have a specific shot in mind. On GOT. If you hit a half center ramp shot and it comes back out to the right flipper, drop catch and the ball is almost always at the exact spot to shoot it back up the center ramp.

If drop catching on the right flipper have a shot on the left side of the game in mind.

If drop catching on the left flipper, have a shot on the right side of the game in mind.

Practice more. Your goal should either be:
1) Drop catch such that you get the ball to a trap, or enough time to plan and take a more controlled shot.
OR
2) Drop catch in a way that isn't #1, but that you recognize ahead of time that you won't have as much time to coordinate a shot.

No, it doesn't. It has two trapezoid-near-square dead bumpers directly adjacent to the flippers. No slingshots, two pop bumpers just above two drain lanes. It's like having a Paragon Beast Lair on both sides...only there's no return from it to the flipper at ALL...you just pray it flies out.

image-4 (resized).jpg

I try to send it to the opposite orbit if I dont regain control from it and that gives you time for the next return to be prepared. (obviously depending on game layout tho)

I would practice drop catching on this all day.

I'll give it a shot, but the issue is the ball comes to the flipper so rarely it's not time efficient to do so. You're actually far more likely on my specific game to get it STDM or into one of those pops and then down and out than to flip it more than four or five times. My condo is extremely unlevel...the floor is practically wavy, very hard to get it level to the point where it doesn't do that a lot. I also really need to replace the Titan glow-in-the-dark rubbers with normal white rubber..there's not enough bounce to properly play the game. But it sure does look sweet all lit up with the UV highlights and reactive rubber. Those short little angles + Titan rubber = WAY less bounce then there should be..and I even have a Glo-Ball in there, and it's clearcoated. LOL.

Sorry got it mixed up.

But again, a perfect game to practice your drops on. That's the EXACT kind of game where you could gain a huge advantage by being able to control the ball where your less skilled opponent can't. Liberty Bell has a similar arrangement and I wasn't doing drop catches. I lost control, didn't get enough shots, and took a 1 where a 2 would have propelled me into round of 16.

Crescendo...BRING IT ON!