(Topic ID: 11315)

Replacing batteries with a memory capacitor


By PinballHelp

7 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 67 posts
  • 22 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 months ago by jlbintn
  • Topic is favorited by 11 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

No games have been linked to this topic.

    Topic Gallery

    There have been 5 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

    untitled (resized).JPG
    Screenshot_20190130-172203~01 (resized).png
    IMG_9855 (resized).JPG
    IMG_9856 (resized).JPG
    Screenshot_20190129-181533 (resized).png

    There are 67 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
    #1 7 years ago

    Hey everyone, I just posted a new tutorial video on replacing batteries with a memory cap.

    Check it out here. Hope you enjoy it!

    http://pinballhelp.com/how-to-install-a-memory-capacitor-to-replace-a-battery-pack/

    #2 7 years ago

    Kick ass.

    Thanks for the link!!

    i love these "how to" videos. Super helpful .

    #3 7 years ago

    I just watched both vids. Thanks!

    #4 7 years ago

    Nice video! One question, will you share the mouser part number?

    I am still using remote battery packs just because I am not sure which capacitor. I searched Mouser and not finding the exact one, any help would be great! Might consider adding the part number to the page as well, thanks

    #6 7 years ago

    Here you go guys,

    http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Panasonic-Electronic-Components/EEC-F5R5U155/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsCu9HefNWqphhDW1I6X6canwWMZafc%252bD0%3d

    Mouser Part #: 667-EEC-F5R5U155
    Manufacturer Part #: EEC-F5R5U155
    Manufacturer:Panasonic Electronic Components
    Description: Supercapacitors 1.5F 5.5V

    #7 7 years ago
    Quoted from ovfdfireman:

    Nice video! One question, will you share the mouser part number?
    I am still using remote battery packs just because I am not sure which capacitor. I searched Mouser and not finding the exact one, any help would be great! Might consider adding the part number to the page as well, thanks

    Thanks for the kind words!

    Here's source info on the caps:

    Category:

    http://www.mouser.com/Passive-Components/Capacitors/Supercapacitors/_/N-5x76s?P=1z0si9rZ1z0sq5k

    Specific item I used:

    http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Panasonic/EEC-F5R5U155/?qs=ANJC8C65Mw7ptVYzlE8xJg%3d%3d

    You can also get these from Great Plains:

    http://www.greatplainselectronics.com/Category-67.asp

    Product ID: CER-1.5F-5V
    Capacitor, Radial Electroltyic, 1.5F, 5V
    Capacitor, 1.5F, 5V, 85C, Radial Electrolytic
    Manufacturer: Panasonic
    Manufacturer Part Number: EECF5R5U155
    Diameter: 21.5mm, Height: 8mm, Lead Spacing: 5
    Price: $5

    #8 7 years ago

    Also, I did a video on installing regular external battery packs too:

    http://pinballhelp.com/how-to-add-a-remote-battery-holder-to-your-pinball-machine/

    I recommend the regular AA-based ones for modern games, especially WPC games.

    #9 7 years ago

    As another resource, Big Daddy sells these too.

    http://www.bigdaddy-enterprises.com/forsale/battery.htm#BatteryCap

    Aaron

    #10 7 years ago

    Looks like they only hold memory for up to 45 days.

    #11 7 years ago

    Thanks...These are very timely as I'm doing this exact fix for my Hollywood Heat donor (along with all the ground rework). Fortunately the original second gen (not the black box) batteries didn't leak. Just not sure if I want the capacitor or remote pack (leaning this way)

    #12 7 years ago

    thank for the infos. watched both videos.

    1 year later
    #13 6 years ago
    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    Hey everyone, I just posted a new tutorial video on replacing batteries with a memory cap.
    Check it out here. Hope you enjoy it!
    http://pinballhelp.com/how-to-install-a-memory-capacitor-to-replace-a-battery-pack/

    Awesome videos...I just watched both of them b/c I have a Gottlieb System 1 Dragon and a Williams Black Knight that I removed old batteries from and wanted to install memory capacitors for. Will this same capacitor you used work for both of my pins, and do I follow the same procedure for both per your video? Thanks for the awesome videos.

    #14 6 years ago

    Another way to do that would be to install the cap with the plus lead going through the existing +hole, and the negative lead hanging over the board, and soldered to the ground trace. Then you don't need any additional wires.

    #15 6 years ago

    How does this charge? I assume normal AA don't get charge power from the machine but something needs to recharge the memory cap.

    #16 6 years ago
    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    Hey everyone, I just posted a new tutorial video on replacing batteries with a memory cap.
    Check it out here. Hope you enjoy it!
    http://pinballhelp.com/how-to-install-a-memory-capacitor-to-replace-a-battery-pack/

    Great video, thanks!!! The pink glue gun is wonderful

    -2
    #17 6 years ago

    That's so awesome!

    #18 6 years ago
    Quoted from markmon:

    How does this charge?

    The board the OP was working on was a Bally -35. These boards do not have a blocking diode, so whenever the game is on, the capacitor (or battery, when they were original) is charging. Consequently, if you replace the factory battery on a Bally -35 with non-rechargeable batteries, you have to add a blocking diode.

    #19 6 years ago
    Quoted from KenH:

    The board the OP was working on was a Bally -35. These boards do not have a blocking diode, so whenever the game is on, the capacitor (or battery, when they were original) is charging. Consequently, if you replace the factory battery on a Bally -35 with non-rechargeable batteries, you have to add a blocking diode.

    Do you happen to know if a Williams System 7 (Black Knight) or Gottlieb System 1 (Dragon) would be compatible with a memory capacitor or how I could figure that out?

    #20 6 years ago
    Quoted from pin-tastic:

    Looks like they only hold memory for up to 45 days.

    If you are not turning on your game to play it in 45 days you need to get a different hobby!

    #21 6 years ago

    The Williams will need 3 AA's. The current draw is too high to use a memory cap effectively. It may only hold the memory for a few days, if converted, and the blocking diode would have to be shorted, so the cap could charge.

    The Gottlieb should work with a memory cap.

    #22 6 years ago
    Quoted from KenH:

    The Williams will need 3 AA's. The current draw is too high to use a memory cap effectively. It may only hold the memory for a few days, if converted, and the blocking diode would have to be shorted, so the cap could charge.
    The Gottlieb should work with a memory cap.

    ok, thanks KenH. Do you or anyone else happen to know of a good place to get a remote (3 AAA) battery holder that has built in diode protection? Marco has this one but it isn't in stock http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/RBH073.

    Pinball Resource doesn't sell them and Bay Area Amusements is out of stock with this one too. I wonder what Radio Shack might have in terms of memory capacitors or remote battery holders???

    #24 6 years ago

    awesome...thank you! What is the difference between 1 Farad and 1.5 Farad? I only ask b/c I have a bunch of other stuff in my basket waiting to be purchased from Marco, and they have a 1 Farad, 5.5 V Radial Memory Capacitor for sale, so would be easier just to add that to my order if it will work just the same.

    #25 6 years ago
    Quoted from Vladtheimpaler-8:

    awesome...thank you! What is the difference between 1 Farad and 1.5 Farad? I only ask b/c I have a bunch of other stuff in my basket waiting to be purchased from Marco, and they have a 1 Farad, 5.5 V Radial Memory Capacitor for sale, so would be easier just to add that to my order if it will work just the same.

    The difference is .5 farad . Storage of potential. 1F works quite well for computer memory chips I wouldn't sweat a 1F vs. 1.5F. Go for whatever is convenient/price/easy to get.

    #26 6 years ago

    Got them in stock here too: http://bigdaddy-enterprises.com/electronics/e_ecapacitors.htm#memcap

    Works great on Bally and Gottlieb System 1 boards.

    #27 6 years ago
    Quoted from wayout440:

    The difference is .5 farad . Storage of potential. 1F works quite well for computer memory chips I wouldn't sweat a 1F vs. 1.5F. Go for whatever is convenient/price/easy to get.

    Nice! LOL Think I will go with the one at Marco then. Thanks again.

    Quoted from toddsvec:

    Got them in stock here too: http://bigdaddy-enterprises.com/electronics/e_ecapacitors.htm#memcap
    Works great on Bally and Gottlieb System 1 boards.

    I will add bigdaddy to my favorites. Always good to accumulate another vendor. Thanks!

    5 years later
    #28 9 months ago

    I just installed a battery pack replacement on my D&D pin. Four pack, with a blocking diode in one slot. How long should they last?

    Reason I ask is that I re-worked some connectors yesterday, and it reset all settings, after being turned off last night, then powered on today. The batteries shouldn't be dead, they've only been in a month and were brand new at the time I installed the pack.

    I used a 5817 blocking diode, as recommended per the repair site for 6803's.

    #29 9 months ago
    Quoted from jlbintn:

    I just installed a battery pack replacement on my D&D pin. Four pack, with a blocking diode in one slot. How long should they last?
    Reason I ask is that I re-worked some connectors yesterday, and it reset all settings, after being turned off last night, then powered on today. The batteries shouldn't be dead, they've only been in a month and were brand new at the time I installed the pack.
    I used a 5817 blocking diode, as recommended per the repair site for 6803's.

    Did you install the blocking diode correctly? (reverse biased) There shouldn't be any problem...3 X 1.5 AA is 4.5VDC and you are substituting for a 3.6V NICAD. Measure your DC voltage at TP4 with the game off, see what that is. I use a 1.5F 5V memory cap with no blocking diode, run leads off it and hot melt glue it to the board - never worry about batteries again, just play it or turn it on once every few weeks to maintain the charge.

    #30 9 months ago
    Quoted from jlbintn:

    I just installed a battery pack replacement on my D&D pin. Four pack, with a blocking diode in one slot. How long should they last?
    Reason I ask is that I re-worked some connectors yesterday, and it reset all settings, after being turned off last night, then powered on today. The batteries shouldn't be dead, they've only been in a month and were brand new at the time I installed the pack.
    I used a 5817 blocking diode, as recommended per the repair site for 6803's.

    These days, a 6116 NVRAM's the way to go on Bally 6803 machines, regardless of who you buy it from. No need to turn the machine on periodically to keep a memory capacitor charged up, no worry about batteries. It may cost more up-front, but it's once and done.

    Anyway, in terms of your issue with the battery pack, any loose connection that breaks continuity between the physical batteries and the RAM chip would cause an issue. Without the batteries in the pack, you could use continuity test on your meter, alligator clip one probe to a connection point on the battery pack and play around with the wire to see if there's a break somewhere or loose connection. Then do the other side. Some cheap wire can break internally in the insulation. The diode, if soldered across the battery pack terminals, may not have "stuck" to the terminal. Any crimped connections if you have a quick-disconnect built into the battery wires, may not have good crimps. Continuity test might help you determine where the issue is. Another way you could do this is leave the batteries in the pack & with the machine off, alligator clip your meter leads onto the positive/negative wires soldered to the MPU. Then watch DC voltage and play around with the battery pack & wires to see if voltage drops as you move wires or jiggle things.

    #31 9 months ago
    Quoted from acebathound:

    These days, a 6116 NVRAM's the way to go on Bally 6803 machines, regardless of who you buy it from. No need to turn the machine on periodically to keep a memory capacitor charged up, no worry about batteries. It may cost more up-front, but it's once and done.

    Do you happen to have a link to some directions for installing NVRAM in a 6803 machine? I recently picked up an Eight Ball Champ, and I'd like to get that original rechargeable battery off of the board pronto.

    #32 9 months ago

    On the product page I show the location of the RAM chip being replaced on each type of MPU board and also mention any jumper changes necessary (no jumper changes needed for Bally 6803). The RAM is already in a socket, so it's plug-and-play... other than having to then reset things to Factory Defaults.

    https://www.pinitech.com/products/6116_nvram.php

    One hitch is this.. and I didn't modify the description for Bally 6803 machines *yet*. Another Pinsider reviewed the 6116 NVRAM he installed in Eight Ball Champ. Since it's an earlier game, it appears resetting things to factory defaults is different than I describe on the product page which was for a later Bally 6803 game. So on the earlier games, you'll have to follow the instructions in the manual to clear things out and set things properly once the NVRAM is installed.

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/6116-nvram-review

    #33 9 months ago
    Quoted from acebathound:

    On the product page I show the location of the RAM chip being replaced on each type of MPU board and also mention any jumper changes necessary (no jumper changes needed for Bally 6803). The RAM is already in a socket, so it's plug-and-play... other than having to then reset things to Factory Defaults.
    https://www.pinitech.com/products/6116_nvram.php
    One hitch is this.. and I didn't modify the description for Bally 6803 machines *yet*. Another Pinsider reviewed the 6116 NVRAM he installed in Eight Ball Champ. Since it's an earlier game, it appears resetting things to factory defaults is different than I describe on the product page which was for a later Bally 6803 game. So on the earlier games, you'll have to follow the instructions in the manual to clear things out and set things properly once the NVRAM is installed.
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/6116-nvram-review

    So it's as easy as popping out the old RAM chip, replacing it with the NVRAM module, and then resetting the game back to factory defaults? Once this is done, I can clip the rechargeable battery and I'm good to go?

    #34 9 months ago
    Quoted from gweempose:

    So it's as easy as popping out the old RAM chip, replacing it with the NVRAM module, and then resetting the game back to factory defaults? Once this is done, I can clip the rechargeable battery and I'm good to go?

    Yep. The NVRAM install is plug-and-play, swap the chip, make sure the orientation of the notch matches the notch on the old RAM chip, and you can clip the rechargeable battery.

    The "hard part" will be going through the manual and using the 6803 keypad to clear and/or make changes to the settings. Bally did not have these games reset to factory defaults when a new RAM is installed (or batteries are replaced). So you have to clear audits and/or set settings according to the EBC manual. Later Bally 6803 games definitely had a Factory Reset option.. but I'd imagine Eight Ball Champ, Lady Luck and Beat The Clock may not have since they were the first few games using the "new" boardset. Regardless, you'd have to do this if the batteries died in the game or had to be replaced.. and once it's done the game will be good for many years without any concern about batteries.

    #35 9 months ago
    Quoted from wayout440:

    Did you install the blocking diode correctly? (reverse biased) There shouldn't be any problem...3 X 1.5 AA is 4.5VDC and you are substituting for a 3.6V NICAD. Measure your DC voltage at TP4 with the game off, see what that is. I use a 1.5F 5V memory cap with no blocking diode, run leads off it and hot melt glue it to the board - never worry about batteries again, just play it or turn it on once every few weeks to maintain the charge.

    Thanks for the tips. The blocking diode is banded side towards the positive end of the top battery slot. If I shut it off and leave it off for a short time, the settings are retained. For context, a short time to this point has been between 15 minutes and 1 hour.

    Overnight, or more than 8 hours, and the game settings reset.

    I'll try your tips and get back. I suspect that it's loose wiring, or something of that nature.

    #36 9 months ago
    Quoted from acebathound:

    Yep. The NVRAM install is plug-and-play, swap the chip, make sure the orientation of the notch matches the notch on the old RAM chip, and you can clip the rechargeable battery.
    The "hard part" will be going through the manual and using the 6803 keypad to clear and/or make changes to the settings. Bally did not have these games reset to factory defaults when a new RAM is installed (or batteries are replaced). So you have to clear audits and/or set settings according to the EBC manual. Later Bally 6803 games definitely had a Factory Reset option.. but I'd imagine Eight Ball Champ, Lady Luck and Beat The Clock may not have since they were the first few games using the "new" boardset. Regardless, you'd have to do this if the batteries died in the game or had to be replaced.. and once it's done the game will be good for many years without any concern about batteries.

    When I clipped the battery, and installed the new pack, I did not reset to factory defaults -BUT - I did change all of the settings to what I desired, e.g., Basic Options, Feature Options. Could this cause an issue of the nature I described earlier in the thread? Maybe the battery pack is functioning as designed, but the machine is getting confused because I did not reset to factory defaults?

    IDK, just throwing it out there. I have seen issues of this nature with PC batteries and CMOS settings.

    btw I installed the battery pack per the guidelines here http://www.pinrepair.com/6803/ - section 3d.

    FYI - prior to checking for responses to my question, I cleared book-keeping and also reset the machine to factory defaults.

    #37 9 months ago
    Quoted from acebathound:

    Yep. The NVRAM install is plug-and-play, swap the chip, make sure the orientation of the notch matches the notch on the old RAM chip, and you can clip the rechargeable battery.

    I'm about to order the NVRAM. Just to be clear, I don't need to choose the "Include IC socket" option since the existing RAM on my Eight Ball Champ is already socketed. Is this correct?

    #38 9 months ago

    It was the wiring, testing with the repair made and game off.

    #39 9 months ago
    Quoted from gweempose:

    I'm about to order the NVRAM. Just to be clear, I don't need to choose the "Include IC socket" option since the existing RAM on my Eight Ball Champ is already socketed. Is this correct?

    https://www.pinitech.com/products/6116_nvram.php

    is this helpful?

    #40 9 months ago
    Quoted from gweempose:

    I'm about to order the NVRAM. Just to be clear, I don't need to choose the "Include IC socket" option since the existing RAM on my Eight Ball Champ is already socketed. Is this correct?

    Right. No socket needed, unless you want an extra

    #41 9 months ago

    that link has a lot of good information, I probably should not only do my D&D pin, but also my Lord of the Rings pin.

    My wife destroyed the ring in 36 seconds, and then we lost the batteries. She was very disappointed by that, because 36 seconds is pretty fast to do that on that pin

    #42 9 months ago
    Quoted from acebathound:

    Right. No socket needed, unless you want an extra

    Ordered. Thanks!

    #43 9 months ago
    Quoted from jlbintn:

    When I clipped the battery, and installed the new pack, I did not reset to factory defaults -BUT - I did change all of the settings to what I desired, e.g., Basic Options, Feature Options. Could this cause an issue of the nature I described earlier in the thread? Maybe the battery pack is functioning as designed, but the machine is getting confused because I did not reset to factory defaults?
    IDK, just throwing it out there. I have seen issues of this nature with PC batteries and CMOS settings.
    btw I installed the battery pack per the guidelines here http://www.pinrepair.com/6803/ - section 3d.
    FYI - prior to checking for responses to my question, I cleared book-keeping and also reset the machine to factory defaults.

    Machine will have junk values in some of the RAM settings by default if batteries die and you put new batteries in OR if the RAM chip is swapped out (for NVRAM, etc). As a for-instance, I seem to remember until I restored to factory defaults on Strange Science, I couldn't start a game. I think the credits were set to some weird garbage data that didn't make sense to the game [code].

    Sounds like you've now done the factory reset, is it holding settings if you power off the game and unplug it for a few minutes?

    #44 9 months ago

    still testing, after the reset to default and re-soldering the positive lead to the battery pack

    will let you know

    and yes, there was some very strange garbage numbers, large numbers, in some of the settings prior to defaulting to factory.

    But the game started up, and played and functioned normally

    btw, can't say this enough

    This was an old thread, but you folks responded quickly. Can't thank you all enough. Makes life a bit easier when tracking down a problem.

    #45 9 months ago

    update, left the game off for approximately two hours, unplugged for the last half of that. All settings lost. And the junk in the registers was back.

    I ordered the NVRAM for this game and for LOTR.

    #46 9 months ago
    Quoted from jlbintn:

    update, left the game off for approximately two hours, unplugged for the last half of that. All settings lost. And the junk in the registers was back.
    I ordered the NVRAM for this game and for LOTR.

    While NVRAM is 100% the way to go, if you are still curious what's happening you can make three checks. You should check to see what the battery voltage is at the board. Preferably at the actual 6116 ram but you could sub just checking where the 2 wires from your remote battery pack are soldered. Check with power on, right after turning power off, and then after you have waited long enough that you think it has failed.

    With new batteries, it should always measure at least 4 volts (very close to 5 with power on). It sounds like it is dropping below 2V (which is the typical minimum standby voltage required by most CMOS rams) after being off for an extended period of time. Your board might even have a non-low power RAM chip that might not even hold data at lower voltage values.

    #47 9 months ago
    Quoted from CactusJack:

    With new batteries, it should always measure at least 4 volts (very close to 5 with power on). It sounds like it is dropping below 2V (which is the typical minimum standby voltage required by most CMOS rams) after being off for an extended period of time. Your board might even have a non-low power RAM chip that might not even hold data at lower voltage values.

    As I said earlier, measure at TP4 with power off for the battery voltage as per the repair docs:
    TP4 = Battery voltage (3.5 to 4.5 volts DC) - Not needed to boot the game.

    The original battery is a 3.6v nicad, and is plenty sufficient to hold game data with stock parts, 3 new AA should measure more than this, and would be plenty standby voltage to hold data, iprovided your game doesn't have some other fault or some non original parts.

    #48 9 months ago

    I did measure the voltage and it did drop below 2V with the machine off and unplugged. I measured 5.4V with power on, btw. Only measurements I have taken are at TP4.

    #49 9 months ago

    Hmmm. I hate to overstate the obvious - that's not good. Before jumping to conclusions the most likely problem is new things that are added or changed. Check the battery holder front and back wiring, because these things are not always wired the same way. The batteries themselves should measure 1.5 VDC, the diode should be in series with the positive side of the 4.5 total voltage but reversed biased ( that is, the cathode, striped side of the diode is connected to the normal battery + on the board, while the anode side of the diode connects to the 4.5 VDC total of the 3 batteries. The ground of the first seres battery connects to ground.

    Sorry to be long winded, but do you measure 1.5VDC across each individual battery and at least 4VDC from ground to the diode in your holder?
    Screenshot_20190129-181533 (resized).png

    #50 9 months ago

    jlbintn, if you do get your issue fixed based on recent suggestions, LMK. Not an issue to refund or modify the order

    Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
    $ 28.00
    Playfield - Other
    Pin Monk
    $ 15.75
    Cabinet Parts
    Tilted Pinball
    From: $ 99.99
    Cabinet - Other
    Lighted Pinball Mods
    $ 48.00
    Cabinet - Other
    ModFather Pinball Mods
    $ 23.75
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    The MOD Couple
    $ 8.50
    Lighting - Led
    Pinball Haus
    $ 175.00
    Lighting - Interactive
    Professor Pinball
    From: $ 5,799.00
    Pinball Machine
    Operation Pinball
    $ 19.95
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    ULEKstore
    From: $ 20.00
    Apparel - Men
    Pinside Shop
    $ 11.95
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    ULEKstore
    $ 5.00
    Playfield - Decals
    Doc's Pinball Shop
    $ 19.95
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    ULEKstore
    $ 18.00
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    The MOD Couple
    $ 169.00
    Cabinet - Toppers
    Id Rather Play Pinball
    $ 79.95
    Cabinet - Shooter Rods
    Super Skill Shot Shop
    $ 269.00
    Cabinet - Other
    PinGraffix Pinside Shop
    $ 1,400.00
    $ 89.99
    Lighting - Led
    Lighted Pinball Mods
    $ 18.95
    $ 149.00
    $ 24.95
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    pinballmod
    $ 10.00
    Apparel - Unisex
    Lee's Parts
    There are 67 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.

    Hey there! Got a moment?

    Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside