(Topic ID: 127323)

Replacing A4 batteries to Lithium on WPC systems

By Flippermatt

8 years ago


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Topic Stats

  • 23 posts
  • 16 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 years ago by DocRotCod
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 8 years ago

Hello,

I watched the TNT Amusements "Todd´s Tips" how to secure and outrule future acid leakage by istalling a lithium source instead.

1, Will the WPC boards run on a button lithium battery ? I read somewhere it is too weak as the drain supposedly is higher than older alphanumeric games. The game that Todd performs the change on is a older non-DMD Bally game.

2, I have often seen in his videos on WPC games there is not the button-like cap battery but instead the cylindrical A4 like lithium battery.. Does that support my point no 1 ?

3, When at all installing the lithium battery on WPC, does it call for removing the resistor as on older games ? They battery may "explode" if the resistor is not excluded as the board wants to give some charge to the battery... In that case, which resistor is closest to the battery and what is it´s spec on the technical sheet ?

4, Again like on older games, does a diode need to go in immediatley after the battery in the chain ?

Thanks for any input.. I want to be sure how to go about.. Todd´s video is very informative but I have stumbled on info that WPC need a different approach.

I have the diodes, cap holders and batteries on the bench and ready to go.

Thanks
Matt in Sweden

#2 8 years ago
Quoted from Flippermatt:

Hello,
I watched the TNT Amusements "Todd´s Tips" how to secure and outrule future acid leakage by istalling a lithium source instead.
1, Will a WPC Driver board run on a button lithium battery ? I read somewhere it is too weak as the drain supposevely is higher than older alphanumeric games. The game that Todd performs the change on is a older non-DMD bally game.
2, I have seen in his videos often on WPC games there is not the button-like cap battery but instead the cylindrical A4 like lithium battery.. Does that suppor my point no 1 ?
3, When at all installing the lithium battery on WPC, does it call for removing the resistor as on older games ? They battery may "explode" if the resistor is not excluded as the board wants to give some charge to the battery... In that case, which resistor is closest to the battery and what is it´s spec on the technical sheet ?
4, Again like on older games, does a diode need to go in immediatley after the battery in the chain ?
Thanks for any input.. I want to be sure how to go about.. Todd´s video is very informative but I have stumbled on info that WPC need a different approach.
I have the diodes, cap holders and batteries on the bench and ready to go.
Thanks
Matt in Sweden

1) The MPU uses the battery to hold data in RAM, not the driver board.
2) Yes, there have been different attempts at solutions for battery replacements. The general idea is to prevent leaks, have a neat/tidy replacement solution, and to be able to replace the battery easily if necessary. The lithium battery that you saw only meets two of the criteria (it is a special order battery, rather than something you can pick up at any convenience store). The button/coin battery generally meets all these criteria (but requires board modifications to accommodate the mounting pin positions).
3) I think you might be referring to the diode on some boards. Williams boards used AA batteries, which do not recharge, thus don't need an extra blocking diode installed. Classic Bally, Stern, and Gottlieb boards need a blocking diode installed to prevent the boards from charging a non-rechargable battery.
4) Normally, the blocking diode goes on the positive side.

Keep in mind, while the button/coin battery is a neat & tidy solution, these batteries still do leak, though less frequently than a AA battery. The best option is to have *no* battery installed on the board, and either use a capacitor, an NVRAM replacement, or remote battery holder.

The cheapest approach would probably be the remote battery holder. The easiest approach would probably be an NVRAM replacement. Everything else is kind of in between when it comes to effort and cost.

#3 8 years ago

Why not just replace the AA alkaline with an AA lithium?

#4 8 years ago
Quoted from schudel5:

Why not just replace the AA alkaline with an AA lithium?

I've wondered this since day one....someone posted that it's not a good idea but I can't remember the reason he gave..................Joey

#5 8 years ago
Quoted from Breaking_Dad:

I've wondered this since day one....someone posted that it's not a good idea but I can't remember the reason he gave..................Joey

They leak. Not quite as often as regular AA's, but they can still ruin boards.

#6 8 years ago
Quoted from Breaking_Dad:

I've wondered this since day one....someone posted that it's not a good idea but I can't remember the reason he gave..................Joey

I think it's because there's a very very slim potential for a lithium battery to explode. I have never heard of this happening outside of someone installing Lithiums in an old game that required a blocking diode. Has anyone had a lithium explode or leak in a modern game? I typically either make my own $3 remote battery holder (using dowel rods) or use Lithium AA's and have never had an issue.

#7 8 years ago

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/energizer-aa-lithium-batteries

Didn't read anything in here that would really convince me to not use Lithium AAs.

#8 8 years ago

Anyone on here ever have a AA lithium leak in any device? Just curious, I've wondered myself.

#9 8 years ago

I use AA lithium in all my games.

#10 8 years ago
Quoted from doublestack:

Anyone on here ever have a AA lithium leak in any device? Just curious, I've wondered myself.

Never. The only case I've ever heard about is when someone tries to charge them (which generates gas that will rupture the cell to vent).

#11 8 years ago
Quoted from mattosborn:

Never. The only case I've ever heard about is when someone tries to charge them (which generates gas that will rupture the cell to vent).

Which some pins have in them right.(ability to charge the battery)..???.............Joey

#12 8 years ago
Quoted from Breaking_Dad:

Which some pins have in them right.(ability to charge the battery)..???.............Joey

Yes. I may be wrong, but typically the games that used NiCads, wasn't the battery soldered on the boards? I can't think of any manufacturer that used rechargeable batteries in a battery holder. In those cases where the soldered battery is removed from the board I'd use a supercap or remote AA holder with blocking diode.

#13 8 years ago

I have gone to NVRAM on all the games that can take them, and not looking back.

-1
#14 8 years ago

nvram is awesome but you still need to power the clock signal on the asic chip to maintain the internal 'clock'..otherwise no TZ clock in attract mode or midnight madness on many games etc..

#15 8 years ago

Above is the best solution...button on clock and nvram ... Or lithium batteries in a remote battery holder. Replace them every 2 years.

#16 8 years ago
Quoted from schudel5:

Why not just replace the AA alkaline with an AA lithium?

Hard to find. Todd said it's a good idea and certainly works, but when they die you're going to replace them with whatever's around (alkaline).

#17 8 years ago

I always put AA Lithiums in, the risk of them leaking like alkaline's is lower, but yes they can still leak (although I have never seen it happen). Also the risk you run with this is, as I have heard from Todd himself, is that it is all well and good you putting Lithiums in, then you sell the game, the batteries eventually die and whoever has it now just puts regular alkaline batteries back in, so you don't really fix the problem. Most people put in a battery holder away from the boards so any leaky or even exploding batteries don't do any damage to the boards.

#18 8 years ago
Quoted from dudah:

Hard to find. Todd said it's a good idea and certainly works, but when they die you're going to replace them with whatever's around (alkaline).

Hahaha hivemind!

#19 8 years ago

There are risks to any source that leaves batteries on the board, whether they are alkaline, lithium, etc.

Yes, if you sell someone a game with lithium AAs, they can swap them out with alkalines and they can leak.

Yes, if you use a remote battery holder with the 9V battery harness on it, someone can use a 9v battery to replace it.

Either of those are probably not common, everyday occurrences, but it's possible.

Leaving alkalines on your CPU board is the lowest cost but highest risk. Using NVRAM removes any risk, but has the highest cost.

It's a cost to benefit analysis. Even cheap old alkalines off the CPU board, with the battery holder inside a plastic bag, is a pretty safe way to do remote batteries and mitigate leakage risks. The bag keeps the batteries from venting and getting to the boards if the bag is sealed up.

#20 8 years ago

Yes Todd had a good reply to the button cell and someone not being able to put an alkaline instead of the lithium. That is a pro. But is that the real reason or is it cost?? I will let you come to your own conclusion. So the con is it looks like a hack. Which I don't care about but some might.

Lithium chemistry is total different. I have never seen a lithium leak. And I would bet if it did there was a good reason like putting into a gottlieb or Bally board without a blocker diode and causing chaos.
Lithium rechargeables have a totally different and strict charge profile compared to NiCad or NiMH.

Some old posts if you look back are filled with terrible info, some is great, some changes a bit as attitudes change and more experience gained.

#21 8 years ago
Quoted from CNKay:

Yes Todd had a good reply to the button cell and someone not being able to put an alkaline instead of the lithium. That is a pro. But is that the real reason or is it cost?? I will let you come to your own conclusion. So the con is it looks like a hack. Which I don't care about but some might.

I don't like that you have to modify the board, but it is a neat & tidy solution, like I mentioned above. It is better than alkaline and prevents people from installing alkaline. The coin/button batteries are also available from anywhere.

Quoted from CNKay:

I have never seen a lithium leak. And I would bet if it did there was a good reason like putting into a gottlieb or Bally board without a blocker diode and causing chaos.

I have seen several leak--though usually it's only after they've been in service for a few years. I actually have a Gottlieb System 3 board where the original button/coin cell battery leaked and caused some damage.

Bottom line--any board-mounted battery is only a short-term solution. Long term, they will leak and damage the board, which is why battery damage is such a common issue.

#22 8 years ago

You are more likely to get struck by lightning than have a CR2032 damage a board. They do not leak unless you get them wet. I have opened up lots of ancient NES games which use cr2032 (which are just now starting to go dead almost 30 years later) and never seen one leaking unless it went under water at some point.

#23 8 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

You are more likely to get struck by lightning than have a CR2032 damage a board. They do not leak unless you get them wet. I have opened up lots of ancient NES games which use cr2032 (which are just now starting to go dead almost 30 years later) and never seen one leaking unless it went under water at some point.

I was trying to tack on a metal tab out of desperation on a computer I was working on. I'll tell you, high heat (like soldering iron heat) makes them leak as well.

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