I think the narrow horizontal strips on the anarchy boards are the gap. Looks like they filled in the gap so the horseshoe contact doesn't wear as much when it crosses the larger gap on stock boards. On the stock boards, the contact hits the edge of the trace as it slides back on the next trace. Might not be that big of a deal but a nifty concept.

This thread was about a solution to eliminate the boards and horseshoe contacts all together. A retrofit for games that had this type of drop target to improve reliability of the targets dropping and registering. Nothing commercially exists to perform this retrofit, to my knowledge.

The boards you linked at Marco are replacement boards for the existing design. They make connections easier by including the switch matrix diodes on the board itself, instead of hanging off the contact points at the bottom of the board.

I fixed the problem on my Disco Fever by eliminating the horseshoe contacts and boards and used reed switches and magnets. Still works fine today.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-drop-target-reed-switch

I don't understand why someone doesn't manufacture something like this. With over 100 posts regarding this problem seems there would be a lot of interest.

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Fantastic idea and, as is often the case, the simplest way can easily be the BEST way!

We will make a system inspired by your efforts straight away.

Later boards from Williams also did the same thing with the small 'spacer' pads in the middle. So not a new concept, I was worried about material shorting between the pads, so didn't include anything similar on mine.

Very slick with the reed switches, solves the issue with the temporary signal for the 'drop' very elegantly.

Agree, brilliant idea @oldschoolbob!

Do we "sense" a new Seigecraft board coming out?
Looks like the board cost would go up unless you could find a cheaper reed switch elsewhere. These are about $1 each.

SMD https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Hamlin-Littelfuse/MDSM-4R-12-18?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvFdY0L2HfHxkRYDuqtA7BwMx%252bTSErh5zE%3d

or Through Hole:
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Hamlin-Littelfuse/FLEX-14-10-15?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvFdY0L2HfHxkRYDuqtA7BwhiQoG1hh%252bhs%3d

Well, the consideration is there, I won't lie. I think there is room for two suppliers on these, if the sales numbers on my previous drop targets are any indication. Homepin and I have competed on a few products over time, and we've co-existed cordially, so I don't see why that would change. So yeah, I am looking into it. True that the board cost would go up but I also think that the cost / price increase would be more than offset by the reliability and maintenance improvement. I've been in on this all the way since the start, would be nice to see it through.

I'm not as worried about the reed switch as I am about the magnets, to be honest.

When you factor in the cost of any replacement horseshoe contacts you may need at what, $3 each, an increase in board cost isn't that big of a deal.

I agree that the keeping the magnet attached is a concern. Maybe magnets with countersunk screw hole that is epoxyed and screwed to the target? https://totalelement.com/products/1-2-x-1-8-x-1-8-inch-neodymium-rare-earth-countersunk-ring-magnets-n42-20-pack?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&adpos=1o3&scid=scplpM12X18X18CSDISCN42-20PK&sc_intid=M12X18X18CSDISCN42-20PK&gclid=Cj0KCQiA-qDTBRD-ARIsAJ_10yJ6bMDLw-ivQXeaq-9x038Lq-21HQWNPbRCUN7db2t9ljIOZV8VCmcaAm_UEALw_wcB&variant=39074768005

Maybe a new, 3D printed target with a recess to hold the glued in magnet?

Well, a $3 per board cost may not seem like much, but when it hits customers it'll probably be closer to a $10 MSRP factoring in the magnets. Can be a $100 set of boards in some games, and definitely more work to install due to the magnets.

Anybody actually know what kind of plastic the original drop targets are made of?

When I made my assembly I used magnets from Home Depot because they were available. They are ½ inch by 0.20 thick. That’s actually a little thick because I had to space the board out a little to be sure the magnets cleared the reed switch. I think the ones Sckwaggs suggested would fit better.

Also when I made my prototype I simply glued the magnets with hot glue. However, they soon came loose. I then glued them with silicone glue, they are still holding. I think epoxy would have been better but I didn’t have any at the time.

I don’t think 10.00 per target is unreasonable at all. As far as more difficult to install, gluing in a magnet is much easier than trying to adjust those horseshoe contacts. That’s what prompted me to try the reed switches in the first place. Replace the board, glue in the magnet and you’re done – no adjusting required.

I have no idea what plastic they used but it was the early 80s so it couldn't have been all that exotic. There are some companies that make modded targets for modern machines using 3D printed plastic. I think most 3D printers use ABS filament.

I’m more thinking about epoxy choices. I have zero intention of making new targets too.

Could you make a small clip to put in addition to or in lieu of the horseshoe contacts?

Wouldn't the horseshoe contacts still be needed for tension?

How strong do the magnets need to be? Would a cut to size role of magnetic tape like this with some stronger adhesive on it work?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/MASTER-MAGNETICS-1-in-x-30-in-Magnetic-Tape-Roll-96304/203613130

Ok, I've been doing a LOT of scheming on these, and have a good plan for prototyping that'll allow me to develop fairly easily.
Here's the big question I have, since I TRY to be customer driven.

Would you guys want individual boards for each drop target? Or a single board for the whole target bank?
It'll take me a bit of time to roll through all the variations but I think it'll be a lot cleaner and easier to install.
It'll also be a lot less wiring to sort out, and eliminate problems with misaligned targets.

-Hans

I'm all for easier. Those things are a PITA to work on.

But it would be kind of cool if you could make each board the same, but leave them connected and provide the traces that would normally be the jumper wires (which were prone to breakage). While still allowing the boards to be snapped into individual ones? So either putting the snap bridges in the right place to do crackerboarding or using the V scribe only on one side of the PCB for snap apart.

I vote for a single board for each bank size.
That does require you to make versions for single through five target setups.

However, I hate the current drop target setup and if you offered a product that required me to install five singles into a flash - yeah, I would do it.

Also, if magnet-to-reed switch clearance is a problem, The board can be routed with a slot (window) for the reed switch and then mount it to the back side (hanging into the slot). Basically putting the reed switch about centered in the thickness of the PCB. This should work extremely well for the SMT version of the switch.

The 3M Brand RED double sided tape is pretty damn strong and durable. It may work well for attaching the magnets but will obviously add some extra height to the magnet.

Single board is my vote. Often, several of the screw holes in the plastic spacers are stripped out. Having one board held in with 6 or more screws, a few which are tight and some of which may only be snugged down is much better IMO.

After seeing these close up photos of a broken screw mount:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/alien-poker-target-bank-part

It made me think that maybe a better way to mount a replacement PCB would be to use some short threaded spacers and thread them onto the mounting screws that are sticking out through the cross plates. Then, it wouldn't matter if the plastic mount tubes are split or not. OF course, this would only work if you were making full size boards for each application (3-4-5 target pcbs).

If I had a few grand laying around I could do a short-run injection mold and re-make those mounts.
But I don't unfortunately. Will be a week or two until I can order the first sample boards on the drop targets.
Chinese new year is in a week, so ordering new PCB's right now is kinda pointless.

On a pseudo-related note, I finally have a schematic available for my existing boards in Tri-Zone.
I just need to get it into an instruction sheet. Also did a revised schematic for the 5-bank in Flash. Just need to get that one polished and published too.

-Hans

No need on the mold. The mounts are Already available as 3D print at swinks (see other thread). And apparently used, for now, at a much lower price from The Pinball Resource.

I’m in for whole banks

Should have a layout to show fairly soon, just about done with the schematic.

I'll be down for two 3 banks. Can't come fast enough.

Dimensions and everything looking pretty good. Tomorrow i'll give another quickie review and get the boards ordered.
Hoping to have them on-hand for MGC next month. It'll be close.

Did multiples of the reed switches for the proto build just in case I need to tweak positioning.
Production boards will remove the excess ones, and have additional jumpering to fit more board games.

-Hans

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Boards are ordered, most of the parts are here. Prototype testing soon.
-Hans

I can test several if needed.

Four three target banks available in my collection.
Flash - needs one.
Blackout - needs one.
Gorgar - needs two.

Cant wait for these to be an option.

Built prototype in my hand, as we speak.

Officially going to be showing them off at MGC, so no photos yet for you guys.
But make sure to stop by my table if you're there.
After the show samples will be getting shipped for testing.
No, I haven't contacted anybody yet...... after the show.

-Hans

Awesome, thanks for the update! See you at MGC!

For anybody who's at MGC, and doesn't mind a bit of DIY as part of the process, I'll have 4 built boards with me.
These are for 3-targets sets. Gorgar, Firepower, and Blackout each have two of these.
Should also work in the 3-bank sets for Flash, Time Warp, Stellar Wars.

There was a small goof with the board house, and they forgot to drill the mounting holes.
If that's no big deal, I'd rather give these away than to bring them home.

Heck, if you don't mind a bit of soldering, I'll also have another 6 blank boards with me.
Can toss in the diodes, but won't get more switches in time.
The more machines/people that get them for testing, the better.

Once I get back from MGC, I'll post up more photos/details, and even pricing one the 3-target sets.

-Hans

Hi Hans! Really nice of you to offer these up!

I'll stop by and can try out a couple of the unpopulated boards on a Stellar Wars I'm about to restore. I could also try them on my Blackout but those drops are working perfectly and don't really need your upgrade at this time unless you need someone to test that title.

Hans, I have a Blackout coming soon that will need the drop targets rebuilt. I won't be at the MGC next week but is there any way I can test these on my Blackout?

Thanks

Bob

Bump

This would be great. I'm thinking I would need some for BK, BO, GL....

Was looking for some folks to stop by and grab samples at MGC, but nobody ever came by.

I'd really like to try them in my Blackout. I'll pay postage. I came up with the original idea and would like to see how well your design works.

Thanks

Bob

My offer still stands, several machines to try on.

Thanks for keeping this project alive.

Hectic couple days, will get back to you guys shortly. Short answer, sure. Let's give it a whirl. Bob and Impzilla, PM me some address details.

Sorry Hans, I had a whirlwind MGC visit only on Friday. I got caught up in playing IMDN and forgot to look you up...

Blackout would be the only title out of those three with horseshoe drops. Williams changed to leaf switch drops before system 7.

Richard

I would not mind trying some in my Flash if it’s not too late?

First two sets of targets just went into envelops for Bob and Impzilla. Been a nutty couple of weeks here since MGC.
This is just the first round of testing, so no doors are closed yet in that regard.

A few questions have come up regarding this design, and I'll be honest they do have me a bit concerned. But lets see if we can solve.

1: Sourcing, attaching, and retaining magnets. Had a few people voice their concerns on that. All things considered, this is a minor concern.
2: Can the reed switches react fast enough for the 'momentary' switches. We'll find out about this one once they hit test subjects.
3: The magnets will lose strength over time due to the vibration and shock of being attached to the targets. This is a real problem for sure.

However, for the time being I'll still go forward with some rounds of testing to get things rolling anyway.

For #2, if it is an issue, you could add a disc cap to extend the closure. Or, mount the Reed switch diagonally which may see the magnet a little longer.

Hans, to put your mind more at ease:

1: The magnets I'm using now I think I got from Jameco but they're available most everywhere - including China. They are about 0.1 thick and 0.5 diameter. They fit fine in the horseshoe recess. I think they'll hold with a little epoxy but to be sure you could reverse the horseshoe sliders and cut the contacts off. See photo.

2: I think I solved the problem with the momentary switch - It can be moved to the bottom and stay on until reset. See my experiments:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/replacing-williams-drop-target-sliders-with-reed-switches

3: I read that magnets hold their magnetizeum for hundreds of years. I even have a Jameco magnet that broke in half and it still seems strong. However, I have noticed the magnetic pull seems stronger at circumference of the magnet than at the center. You may want to offset the reed switches to one side.

Bob

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I received the boards from Hans the other day. I did a lot of bench testing and made a few changes. I got it worked great on the bench. Today I finished assembling the target and installed it into the game. It works fine but I seem to get interference from the right target to the center target. I think the magnet is so strong that it's closing the center switch.

I guess a few more adjustments are required. But I guess that's what prototype testing is for.

Once Hans gets the bugs worked out this is going to be a great product. Can't wait to see this on the market.

Bob

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