(Topic ID: 125861)

repair philosophy


By zapdbf

5 years ago



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  • Latest reply 5 years ago by wayout440
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    #1 5 years ago

    I have been repairing electronics/mechanical assemblies for over 25 years and i have developed the following philosophy.
    "If a modification is required to fix a problem, then it is not a fix but a design change and that does not end in a quality result." That is my repair philosophy in one line, with that being said engineers are not perfect and defiantly do make mistakes. Those mistakes can become big problems and are well known. For instance we can point to gottllieb system 1 for example of a bad design that requires modification to keep it running, mainly adding grounds to keep the poor grounding choices of the engineers from constantly failing. But also this failing is well known. Down through the years in my repair career engineering departments quite often issue design changes to repair technicians to correct a flaw in the design.
    Modification to repair something is not a good choice when you are in a normal repair situation. One Common modification i see is that if you have a bad connector, then solder the wire and bypass the connector. All you are doing is to frustrate the next repair that will need to be made to keep these antiques running well.
    If you are making a modification then understand that you are altering the function. For instance on older em pinball machines you need to modify the credit reel to make the game free play, because there is no free play option on all em machines.
    So when you are working on your game, ask yourself the following question "am i repairing it or modifying it" Then if you are modifying it, do you understand the ramifications of the modification. This philosophy is not limited to just the electronics or electrical system, this is also true for the playfield and mechanical assemblies. in fact i see more modifications to the mechanical assemblies then electrical. one mechanical alteration i see allot is shorting a spring to repair not modify the function. The common misconception is that the spring is weak. As a general rule this is not true. In most cases it is a mechanical failure that goes undetected by the person repairing the machine. Just because a lever is moving does not mean that it is moving correctly per the design. Just putting oil on a lever that was designed to run dry does not fix the function of that lever it may work better in the short run but it will eventually cause more problems in the future.

    #2 5 years ago
    Quoted from zapdbf:

    engineers are not perfect and defiantly do make mistakes.

    That's right, dag-nab it! I'm going to make whatever mistakes I feel like!

    All good points. People don't generally stop to think of the consequences. In a lot of cases they really don't care about "down the road". Remember that a lot of machines are or were owned by individuals that expect to make some money out of them and a quick fix to get the machine "working" is the way to do that.

    On a similar note, the chair of my college used to really like to say "when engineers make mistakes, people die". He sure tried to drill that in. Guess it worked?

    #3 5 years ago

    When I swap out an old two prong plug and ground the high voltage on the door and flippers so that someone doesn't land in the hospital from the shock, I consider that repairing the mistakes of those who came before me. Not modifying the game.

    #4 5 years ago

    Uuuuuuuhhh......ok.

    [edit] responding to OP

    #5 5 years ago

    Sooo....what about mods?

    In all seriousness, there is a whole mound of repair information around documented suggested fixes/repairs/modifications all kind of lumped together.

    When electronic parts become obsolete and are no longer obtainable, substitutions are necessary, which might not be quite like the original design, such as the replacement bridge rectifiers for classic bally/stern rectifier boards.

    When buying pins that were on route, there will inevitably be hacks in there just to keep the machine running, which were not part of the original design. Coin-ops typically didn't care if it was a proper repair---just that it fixed (or at least bypassed) the problem. Proper fixes cost time and money. However, as collectors and enthusiasts, I'm sure most of us want things to be repaired "properly" when possible.

    #6 5 years ago

    "When electronic parts become obsolete and are no longer obtainable, substitutions are necessary, which might not be quite like the original design, such as the replacement bridge rectifiers for classic bally/stern rectifier boards."

    nothing is absolute, what I wrote was not meant to be taken like that. When a part becomes obsolete and you need to substitute a part that as long as you understand the effects of using that part it makes sense to make that change. When you start a repair or are working on a repair the idea is to keep it as original as possible.

    "When buying pins that were on route, there will inevitably be hacks in there just to keep the machine running, which were not part of the original design."
    sure you will find that but it is not a quality repair. I have worked in the field and sometimes you need to get something "working" but I will follow that up with getting the right parts on a return visit.

    "Proper fixes cost time and money."
    absolutely, quick fixes lead to more trouble in the future, it is not a quality fix done fast an cheap.

    "When I swap out an old two prong plug and ground the high voltage on the door and flippers so that someone doesn't land in the hospital from the shock, I consider that repairing the mistakes of those who came before me. Not modifying the game. "

    It is a modification, I don't want to deaminize the word modification. If you change the original design no matter how awful the design is it is still a modification. Adding a third prong ground is a
    great modification. A modification can be good or bad.
    I said "ask yourself if you are making a repair or a modification" - if you are then know it as a modification not a repair.

    #7 5 years ago

    We have modifications on our designs that are applied throughout the manufacturing process, many way long before the first product off the line has even left the building. Mostly, this is because the modern electronics industry moves extremely fast. If your design takes 4 -6 months to go from idea to a real production line, then you may very well find a part that was available become an obsolete part. Some are improvements over design, or to tackle new found problems. On top of that, the software is often evolving ridiculously faster than the hardware.

    Whatever the need for the modification or repair, the important thing to remember is that it is applied with proper electrical or engineering standards. There is a right way, and a wrong way, to implement a repair or a modification. Generally, the negative use of the word "hack" is a repair done without adhering to those standards.

    #8 5 years ago

    "In all seriousness, there is a whole mound of repair information around documented suggested fixes/repairs/modifications all kind of lumped together."

    yes, and that should concern you, do you know really how it will affect your machine?
    it bothers me to see that because people will see it as an absolute "fix"
    attempting a modification per instructions on the internet is not always the correct thing to do.
    And it is virtually impossible to verify most of the verifications are anecdotal. So you basically need to trust
    the poster that he knows what he is doing. and some are very good, some are very poor.

    #9 5 years ago
    Quoted from zapdbf:

    "If a modification is required to fix a problem, then it is not a fix but a design change and that does not end in a quality result."

    I agree that it is a design change, but in many cases it can be a good design change (with good quality). I'm proud of some of the modifications I've done to get around a poor mechanical design. Living with the original failure (however small) is not an option for me.

    #10 5 years ago
    Quoted from wayout440:

    We have modifications on our designs that are applied throughout the manufacturing process, many way long before the first product off the line has even left the building. Mostly, this is because the modern electronics industry moves extremely fast. If your design takes 4 -6 months to go from idea to a real production line, then you may very well find a part that was available become an obsolete part. Some are improvements over design, or to tackle new found problems. On top of that, the software is often evolving ridiculously faster than the hardware.
    Whatever the need for the modification or repair, the important thing to remember is that it is applied with proper electrical or engineering standards. There is a right way, and a wrong way, to implement a repair or a modification. Generally, the negative use of the word "hack" is a repair done without adhering to those standards.

    I agree, absolutely but the manufacturer will issue a modification bulletin.
    and maybe some are missing my point. A technician out in the field does not have the same
    level of information and understanding as the engineer of that product. We can't we weren't included in the design process. We have the schematics and diagrams which only tell half the story. applying my "philosophy" is the best way to head into a repair.
    I have worked with many engineers in my career and I can tell you that some of them don't really understand a technicians role very well and can be quite condescending about it. And I think the Designation of who is an engineer has eroded to technicians calling themselves engineers. I have been a technician many years, and when you are working with limited design information you need to stick with the original design until it is impossible to do so. out in the field a technician does not have the luxury learning the details of everything he needs to repair. You are thrown into the fire so to speak needing a quality and successful outcome. my philosophy has served me well to achieve this outcome.

    #11 5 years ago
    Quoted from swampfire:

    I agree that it is a design change, but in many cases it can be a good design change (with good quality). I'm proud of some of the modifications I've done to get around a poor mechanical design. Living with the original failure (however small) is not an option for me.

    I think we are just mixing semantics here I am glad you had great results but it is bad practice to go into a repair thinking a modification is the correct action to fix a problem. maybe that is a better way to explain it.
    the next question to ask is can these modifications be applied to all machines with the same result if you don't have lab testing your reasoning is antidotal only. When I worked in the lab before even the smallest change went out we tested the design fully. Any mod found on the internet will have this same hit and miss reality.

    #12 5 years ago

    So I do agree that before attempting a modification, you should fully understand the problem you're trying to resolve, and convince yourself that you're resolving a design flaw. Case in point:

    Nascar: Garage scoop kicks the ball straight down the middle.
    Black Knight: Ball shot to upper lock flies out the other side.

    My workarounds to these problems haven't had any negative side effects. They are also temporary and easily removed if someone prefers the original design.

    But I agree that sometimes the right answer is "play better!".

    #13 5 years ago
    Quoted from zapdbf:

    I think we are just mixing semantics here I am glad you had great results but it is bad practice to go into a repair thinking a modification is the correct action to fix a problem. maybe that is a better way to explain it.
    the next question to ask is can these modifications be applied to all machines with the same result if you don't have lab testing your reasoning is antidotal only. When I worked in the lab before even the smallest change went out we tested the design fully. Any mod found on the internet will have this same hit and miss reality.

    Dude, it's only pinball. You can keep your certificate on display, no one's taking it from you. You win the kewpie doll. Thanks Professor, have a nice day.

    ? WTF ?

    #14 5 years ago

    I think you might be looking at it a little too closely. After all, even a repair can be considered a modification because the original parts have outlived their expected lifetime. I don't need to question every repair or change to figure out the impact on future generations, I just need to do them right. Your example of the bad connector having a wire just soldered to the board... anyone doing that is just doing it wrong. I think even the person doing it knows that, but they don't care. But if a game has a flaw, like the grounding mods, it needs to be fixed. Call it a mod, call it what you want, but it is the only way to have the game run reliably.

    #15 5 years ago
    Quoted from DaveH:

    I think you might be looking at it a little too closely. After all, even a repair can be considered a modification because the original parts have outlived their expected lifetime. I don't need to question every repair or change to figure out the impact on future generations, I just need to do them right. Your example of the bad connector having a wire just soldered to the board... anyone doing that is just doing it wrong. I think even the person doing it knows that, but they don't care. But if a game has a flaw, like the grounding mods, it needs to be fixed. Call it a mod, call it what you want, but it is the only way to have the game run reliably.

    no I am not, example if you have a spring that is not returning like expected do you do you shorten it or try to find out why it will not return correctly. when in the past it worked fine. go into the repair looking for the underlying cause don't just shorten the spring. If the spring is bad then replace it. that is the meaning of that. too many times they will stop short of the real problem where a modification seems to fix the problem. Then you end up fixing it again 6 months later. What I said above is good sense approach to all repairs. I have seen other techs approach a repair where a part is obviously not preforming well, will modify something else to make it work better. This has happened in my profession. I have seen it many times. I will not work like that. Happy customers are important to me. if you want your repairs to hold up to the test of time you need to approach all repairs like this.

    #16 5 years ago
    Quoted from zapdbf:

    That is my repair philosophy...

    I'm trying to understand the intention of the OP's post...

    Are you posting to tell us what YOU do? (If so, why?)

    or

    Are you posting to tell us what WE should do? (If so, why?)

    -mof

    #17 5 years ago

    Being in the coin-op business, I try to impress to our technicians all the time that a "band-aid repair" to just get something running for the moment is only going to come back and bite you.

    If you fix it half way, next week or next month, you will be working on the same problem again.

    Then it will snowball. If you do these type of repairs on a daily basis, then pretty soon all you are doing is redoing your previous work.

    Good post to the OP by the way.

    #18 5 years ago
    Quoted from cody_chunn:

    Dude, it's only pinball. You can keep your certificate on display, no one's taking it from you. You win the kewpie doll. Thanks Professor, have a nice day.
    ? WTF ?

    LOL. This dude was breaking an arm patting himself on the back. Nice job.

    #19 5 years ago
    Quoted from zapdbf:

    no I am not, example if you have a spring that is not returning like expected do you do you shorten it or try to find out why it will not return correctly. when in the past it worked fine. go into the repair looking for the underlying cause don't just shorten the spring. If the spring is bad then replace it. that is the meaning of that. too many times they will stop short of the real problem where a modification seems to fix the problem. Then you end up fixing it again 6 months later. What I said above is good sense approach to all repairs. I have seen other techs approach a repair where a part is obviously not preforming well, will modify something else to make it work better. This has happened in my profession. I have seen it many times. I will not work like that. Happy customers are important to me. if you want your repairs to hold up to the test of time you need to approach all repairs like this.

    Yes you are. And that is ok. You can take that and preach your philosophy to never hack something. In your example of the spring, please pardon the expression, duh. Of course you or I don't just shorten the spring to make it work again. There is very established verbiage for that, and it is called a hack.

    No matter how good the view is up on your high horse, hacks will continue to happen. People either bring good sense to repairs, or they don't. Fix them when you see them. That's about all you can do.

    #20 5 years ago

    If it is broken or not functioning as you like it, fix it or modify it to function as you would like.

    #21 5 years ago
    Quoted from zapdbf:

    "If a modification is required to fix a problem, then it is not a fix but a design change and that does not end in a quality result."

    So.... just to name a few, removing batteries from the board, using molex/trifurcon's instead of IDC for constant voltage connectors, replacing the mosfets for Stern Whitestar flipper driver transistors when they blow with IRL540s, and many other things.... this doesn't end in a quality, better than original result...?

    There are lots of changes in design, done at the repair level, and further implemented throughout further versions of the board sets in pinball.

    Sorry, I disagree with your statement. Things you pointed out are considered hacks by most (ie bypassing connectors). I agree with this, if you meant it this way:

    "If a hack is required to fix a problem, then it is not a fix but a hack, which means you are a hack for hacking over doing it the right way, and that does not end in a quality result over the accepted modification."

    #22 5 years ago

    if you don't agree fine. my point was to help people in there attempt at repairing an issue.
    not to pat myself on the back, just trying to give back a little. I was hoping that my long career and the trials I went through would help somebody else and make it easier for them. if you are unsure how to proceed in a repair don't modify it to fix it.

    that is all I have to say about it.
    sorry I even tried.

    #23 5 years ago

    Personally I think this is a worthwhile discussion, and don't let the naysayers bother you (there are plenty of them on Pinside). On the other hand the initial post could have been a little less of a lecture (sorry, but that's how it came across--even I wasn't sure where you were coming from). A better approach would have been: Here's my philosophy, what do you think? Then we could have a discussion.

    As someone who was actually a field service engineer (not just a made up title, all the FSE's at my company had engineering degrees) I can assure you that having to redesign products in the field was not at all uncommon. There are many times when the guy out there where the rubber meets the road has a lot more insight than the engineers. I'm not saying that is the case with pinball, but the difference between a repair, a mod and a hack in relation to pinball is worth discussing.

    Also kudos to mrjamma for his response. I'm tired of listening to operators, who clearly don't know a thing about electro-mechanical repair, justifying hacks because all that matters was getting the game up and running. To be honest I've done a few hacks in my life on medical equipment, but I came back as soon as possible and properly repaired the device. That's an important distinction.

    #24 5 years ago
    Quoted from swampfire:

    So I do agree that before attempting a modification, you should fully understand the problem you're trying to resolve, and convince yourself that you're resolving a design flaw. Case in point:
    Nascar: Garage scoop kicks the ball straight down the middle.
    Black Knight: Ball shot to upper lock flies out the other side.
    My workarounds to these problems haven't had any negative side effects. They are also temporary and easily removed if someone prefers the original design.
    But I agree that sometimes the right answer is "play better!".

    Here's a fix I made:
    Centaur: Kick to Playfield coil locks on and melts the coil. You can't see the mech and don't know it's happening until you see smoke roll up from under the plunger. Replace the uncommon coil with a flipper coil and add an EOS switch (it is a modified flipper mech after all). No side effects, coil will not melt if it locks on again, easily undone back to original.

    #25 5 years ago

    It would be nice to be able to get all the replacement parts needed to correctly repair these machines. But unfortunately due to the fact they were originally designed to last five years or so, that isn't always an option. Must fix with whatever is available now even if that is duck tape and bailing wire.

    But I prefer to do it right.

    #26 5 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    It would be nice to be able to get all the replacement parts needed to correctly repair these machines. But unfortunately due to the fact they were originally designed to last five years or so, that isn't always an option. Must fix with whatever is available now even if that is duck tape and bailing wire.
    But I prefer to do it right.

    Exactly that. I've had to repin and rewire and fair number of modern machines to undo improper hacks and add mods to compensate for design inefficiencies on some Bally games, but on a 1958 Gottlieb with a busted contact on a unobtainium open frame relay - I've got it working by soldering on a flipper contact. I'm hoping some day to source the part or find one on a parted game. There's also a difference between being resourceful, and being careless.

    There's a lot of folks out there buying broken games who have zero electronics knowledge. I've been a professional electronics technician for over 30 years, and that knowledge I use to help folks make reliable and safe repairs. If you want to help them, then help them and explain why.

    #27 5 years ago
    Quoted from dothedoo:

    Here's a fix I made:
    Centaur: Kick to Playfield coil locks on and melts the coil. You can't see the mech and don't know it's happening until you see smoke roll up from under the plunger. Replace the uncommon coil with a flipper coil and add an EOS switch (it is a modified flipper mech after all). No side effects, coil will not melt if it locks on again, easily undone back to original.

    That sounds like a good fix and I would do it myself. That said, do it to a game and then if it gets sold, fully expect a new thread here with photos and someone whining ; Whaaa, whaaa, whaaa, Hack of the week! what were they thinking?!?! Why would someone do this? Where can I get the parts to remove this hack and make it original??

    #28 5 years ago
    Quoted from terryb:

    Personally I think this is a worthwhile discussion, and don't let the naysayers bother you (there are plenty of them on Pinside).

    Quoted from zapdbf:

    if you don't agree fine. my point was to help people in there attempt at repairing an issue.
    not to pat myself on the back, just trying to give back a little. I was hoping that my long career and the trials I went through would help somebody else and make it easier for them. if you are unsure how to proceed in a repair don't modify it to fix it.
    that is all I have to say about it.
    sorry I even tried.

    But what you are saying is liking stating Clay's Guides, for example is a bunch of hacks for the global collection of repairs and upgrades that should be done. It's like saying repairing the ground issues in a Gottlieb System 1 or 80 is not a good end result. Sorry, there are many, many things in pinball that were not good ideas, and the consensus on modifications to make them stronger and reliable are good, solid ideas for the most part.

    You mention the Sys1 ground in your first post. I just don't understand how you can state that does not end in a quality end result over leaving it original. I mean, what is your belief then for overcoming that very serious issue for that system?

    Again, you mentioned a straight wire avoiding a connector, and I would label that a "hack" by slang definition, something that while it improves the connectivity, creates a further issue in removal down the line.

    Maybe I'm missing your point, because I don't want anyone to think that they should not complete the mods that have been raised here, or other standards in pinball repair in maintenance.

    #29 5 years ago

    Gottlieb grounding fix was the first thing to come to mind while reading this. I disagree that the original design was correct.

    #30 5 years ago
    Quoted from terryb:

    To be honest I've done a few hacks in my life on medical equipment, but I came back as soon as possible and properly repaired the device. That's an important distinction.

    This is the crux, right here. A hack (or mod, or work-around, etc...) is only a hack if left as a permanent repair.

    The problem is that route techs are charged with getting the machine up and taking coin no matter what. The term hack does not exist. Fixed or not fixed. Then they have to beat it to the next call. They never have time to go back and fix it properly. That's why we have all these fun and exciting "easter eggs" in "as-is" off-route games. And if a hack/mod *works* with little/no ill effects on the game, how awful can it really be?

    It's all part of the fun.

    Soldering wires to a socket? HACK! But how many games have this repair as a permanent solution to a worn-out socket?

    I like to look at it this way: you fix your games the way you see fit, and I'll fix mine the way I see fit, and if we ever exchange games we can re-fix anything we don't like.

    Everybody wins and lives happily ever after and enjoys their hobby time.

    I think this is an example of: "Lighten up, Francis." IMO.

    #31 5 years ago
    Quoted from cody_chunn:

    I like to look at it this way: you fix your games the way you see fit, and I'll fix mine the way I see fit, and if we ever exchange games we can re-fix anything we don't like.

    That sounds like a great party game.

    #32 5 years ago
    Quoted from cody_chunn:

    "Lighten up, Francis." IMO.

    Who's Francis?
    -mof

    #33 5 years ago
    Quoted from mof:

    Who's Francis?
    -mof

    "You call me Francis, I'll kill you."

    #34 5 years ago
    Quoted from mof:

    Who's Francis?
    -mof

    #35 5 years ago

    i hope the op never looks under the hood of one of my machines...

    or sees my jacks open power cord/convenience outlet mod...

    #36 5 years ago
    Quoted from ccotenj:

    i hope the op never looks under the hood of one of my machines...

    He should see the paperclip mod I did on my add a ball Palooka that makes the coin return button start a game.

    #37 5 years ago

    So i just replaced a bad 5101 ram on a lvl 6 williams mpu. I used an ic socket instead of a hard soldering it in like the original.

    Mod, design change, or haxxors! discuss among yourselves.

    #38 5 years ago

    NoStartButton.JPG

    Fixed.JPG

    #39 5 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    NoStartButton.JPG (Click image to enlarge)

    Fixed.JPG (Click image to enlarge)

    Wait, a Williams machine with no coin mech.... A Chicago Gaming/PPS remake?

    #40 5 years ago

    Next remake is coming with paperclips.

    #41 5 years ago

    I always try and repair pins correctly. And I want to repair it. I really don't care what the next guy who has my machines thinks. I discover things on machines I've had for years as far as hacks go. It is about playability 1st w/me and collectible 2nd. Sure I want my machines to be as nice/presentable as possible. The major stupid hacks are amusing.

    #42 5 years ago

    In Pinball repair, this is how I define these words.

    hack = modifying a broken part to make the game work using any method necessary. It generally consists of bypassing any broken or faulty parts because you don't have the correct part on hand, or you are just lazy.

    mod = any alteration to the existing design for better or worse, but generally done with the intention of improvement, like putting fuses on the BRs on SYS11 games that don't have them. Ground mods in some cases I think belong in the "repair" category, because they are so crucial to keeping a game running properly, they're a necessity.

    repair = replacing the broken part with the correct part and doing so cleanly and correctly so that it will last as long as the game is around, or any type of work needed to keep something running properly or as originally intended.

    In my experience, the majority of the mods I have done have yielded very positive results, but you do have to have an understanding as to why you are doing them.

    #43 5 years ago

    I know I've substituted a fuse here and there with a lesser value, intending to go back and put the right one in someday - but I'd have to go and pull all the fuses on my games to find them. Oh well, they're protected sufficiently and still running so no big deal. Same goes for the homemade flipper link, which might even outlast the original. Play on!

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