(Topic ID: 160503)

Repainting vs. Touching Up - Repainters vs. Originalists


By ZNET

3 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 85 posts
  • 42 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by RyanClaytor
  • Topic is favorited by 7 Pinsiders

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Linked Games

  • 2001 Gottlieb, 1971

Topic poll

“REPAINTER or ORIGINALIST?”

  • I would strip and repaint the cabinet to make it perfect, like it was in 1971, right out of the box. 29 votes
    35%
  • It would be blasphemous to repaint that cabinet. It's only original once so I would touch up that puppy. 23 votes
    27%
  • I would neither repaint it nor touch it up. Life is too short. I would put it in my line-up as is and play it. 32 votes
    38%

(84 votes by 0 Pinsiders)

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There are 85 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 3 years ago

I know that there are some highly talented guys on the EM forums who have the cabinet repainting methodology down to a science. I admire their talents and I applaud their results. In the last few years, my impression is that many perfectly fine cabinets are being needlessly repainted. My personal preference is to preserve EM games in their original state, to the extent possible, with cabinet repainting being the restoration choice of last resort. I understand that some collectors want uniformity in their collections, which means that every game's cabinet must be flawless, mandating a repaint. For me, I prefer original cabinets, with a good patina (and some incidental battle scars are fine as well).

I'm wondering how many of us are REPAINTERS vs. ORIGINALISTS. Please identify your preference by answering the poll. To determine which category you fall into, ask yourself whether you would repaint or simply touch up the cabinet of my Gottlieb 2001. Assume that the playfield and the backglass rank about an 8 or 9. In other words, the game is going to be imperfect overall, even if the game has a perfectly repainted cabinet. Naturally, as an originalist, I touched it up. It's time-consuming to mix and match paint, blend the paint and make the touch-ups as invisible as possible. However, it's far less onerous than a total repaint. Below are the before and after photos of the game's head. The main cabinet's paint condition was similar or perhaps somewhat worse.

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#2 3 years ago

I voted touch up - but don't think it blasphemous for others to paint theirs ... I could have just as easily voted to leave alone too ... And thinking on it that IS how I've handled all mine

cheers Ron

#3 3 years ago

IMO, originality almost always beats re-paint. If you do well with touching up, fine. As far as '60's Gtbs go, hanging on to any left over touch-up red and blue colors is worth it as they used the same colors on several different games with the white base.

#4 3 years ago

I touch up black areas, but since I can never perfectly match up colors, touch ups tend to be somewhat visible and do more harm than good.

So, either leave it as is if it's "good enough", or repaint the entire thing if the condition is poor or if it's some thing you want to spend a lot of time making it look minty fresh.

However, some collectors prefer things as original as possible and would cringe at new paint.

#5 3 years ago

It depends on the machine and what state it was is before. Sometimes they are so destroyed that once they are presentable there isnt much of an argument of originality left, so then i usually just over restore it..which looks great but new out of the box. I prefer to just touch up or leave cabinets when possible because I really like that they have had a life and history...it gives them character, just like people. It doesnt really answer the question but its how i decide whats worth doing.

#6 3 years ago

For me, I'd just leave it the way it is. I put nicer cabs on the ends of rows (where they're more likely to be seen) and usually play/entertain in low light conditions (at night) anyway. Real good touch ups would be acceptable, but I don't trust myself...so I don't do it. Nice game!

#7 3 years ago

Original wherever possible. Sometimes this just isn't possible though.

Touch up's can be good or bad. When you can see them while playing they are bad. Really good ones I have to look real close and sometimes I can't even tell, so that is way good enough.

That 2001 I would leave as is.

#8 3 years ago

I'd leave that 2001 alone. But, if a guy has the talent to strip down a cabinet (assuming the art is really messed up) and re-do it like the factory, then go for it.

One of my mottos is "know your limitations." Most people can get better at soldering with practice but painting is an art form and most end up doing more harm than good. I'll stick to repainting the numbers and letters on a pop bumper cap.

#9 3 years ago

Unless a cabinet is 'too far gone' I much prefer to touchup. For me it not only maintains originality but most importantly it maintains character. The touch up of your 2001 is a great example of touch up giving an outstanding result.

#10 3 years ago

Compare it to the "survivor" class of collectible car. With original paint, interior, underhood details, etc. in good, presentable condition, these cars are more desirable to collectors than a repaint. However, a rustbucket that's never been touched and looks awful may be all-original but is a prime candidate for repainting.

#11 3 years ago

For me, in my very, very limited experience it is... Preference 1 - leave original. Preference 2 - leave original. Preference 3 is repaint. I have had to repaint games because previous owners decided to repaint it. Stripping down to original was not viable, so repainting was really the only option.

Personally, I think touch-up is much more difficult than repainting. I've always been able to tell touch-ups because matching color, sheen and paint level are extremely difficult. Add to it, the UV properties of the paints are different and it is damn near impossible to do to my standards. I compare it to the few people that are able to do high-end antique furniture restoration. It takes years of experience and an amazing eye to restore without detection. I recognize it is beyond my skill level and know that any touch-ups I did would continually haunt me, taunting me "look at me, I'm not as shiny as the area around me" "my blue is a bit greener" "you suck" Hence, keep the patina or repaint are the only options that will maintain the little bit of sanity I have left.

#12 3 years ago

Touching up is not at all easy. I agree with the above, touchups are generally noticeable, and matching paint colors is not at all easy.

That game, to me, is a repaint. But probably few guys on here would agree. Probably boilerman and pinhead52 would repaint it, as would I, but most people probably would leave it alone or touch it up.

Repainting is a big job, and it's bigger if you have to take the time to make the stencils. And for some of the more complex game designs, making the stencils is a bigger job than repainting.

#13 3 years ago

Sometimes a touchup just isn't in the cards.

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The Gottlieb Baseball I'm trying to finish before the SFGE in Atlanta. Total Cabinet Repaint.
Brought to you by Rattle Can Restorations™
Pix et al coming soon.

#14 3 years ago

I approach the touch-up process as encompassing three elements: 1) topography; 2) color; and 3) sheen. The trial and error process allows for success with the first two elements. All it takes is a steady hand, a good eye for color and a hefty dose of patience.

However, successfully filling dents and adding the correct color to vacant areas is counterproductive, in my opinion, if the touch-ups reflect light differently than the existing, original paint. If the sheen is different, the touch-ups will attract attention, defeat the purpose of the effort and, as others have noted, actually diminish the aesthetics.

That is why I spray several coats of a matte clear finishing product at various stages of the process. Doing so virtually eliminates the typical differential in light-reflective quality between the two paints. Equally, the clear coat seals and protects the old paint. The end result is a cabinet that has a uniform patina, with some amorphous areas a little darker or lighter, here and there. As long as the "canvas" contains the same ingredients throughout the visual field, the human eye will not likely discern the minor imperfections from the typical distance of a player's perspective. For example, the fifth photo reveals that my blue touch-up of the horizontal scrape is slightly darker than the original paint. Nevertheless, that disparity is primarily evident as a consequence of the flash photography. In person, that color difference resembles a natural fade from age or environment.

Truth be told, if I had taken more time, I probably could have better matched that blue area to render it entirely invisible to the naked eye. This game had a more serious main cabinet damage issue, which occupied considerable restoration attention. In any event, my objective is to raise the overall condition of the game to a solid 9, utilizing the original backglass (which is very nice, albeit imperfect), and polishing the playfield (which is exceptionally nice for this title).

#15 3 years ago

Bruce-now you need to post a pic of thatplay field please !!

#16 3 years ago

Over 50% of the games I repaint somebody has painted over with usually ugly latex. There its a no brainer. Also I am seeing quite a number of wedge head faces with delaminating veneer, another issue. I have a local buddy that can replace and make new.

I am a fan of keeping orginal when there is enough to keep...

#17 3 years ago

I do repaint the cabinet and head of the EM's if they are really faded and scratched. I look for games that have nice playfields so touchups would be minimal. Light graining and light fading of the playfield colors is fine with me, I do want the machine to show its age. My machines are in my living room/gameroom and I want them to look proud and nice. Looking nice means something and retaining some patina is important too. Its a lot of work to restore a neglected em pin to a good playing nice looking piece......its called a hobby.

#18 3 years ago

Warning: thesis ahead

I like basket-case pins because they're cheap and I don't have to agonize over whether to preserve or restore. I restore, replace, repaint as cost- and time-effectively as I can because I want to experience the machines as they were, and I don't care if they don't look their age. The graphics themselves are the age indicator for me, not yellowed varnish, cracked paint or creaky mechanics.

Sometimes I'll touch things up because it's quicker/easier/cheaper than a full repaint, but what I would prefer is to take it all apart, or strip & make it perfect, i.e. as close to what it was as I can. But touching up well is really hard, and the touchups will likely age differently than the original finishes, making the repair work obvious and unsightly after some time has passed. Know your skill level, etc. but very few can do it right, "right" being in an archival sense. And it takes SO much more time & money.

Here's a case of academic overreach, IMO, on a backglass restoration:

http://cool.conservation-us.org/anagpic/2013pdf/anagpic2013_ford_murray_paper.pdf

I wonder how much time & money this took?

This is where things will go if we let preservation mania creep too far. Is someone going to bitch that you didn't use a mass spectrometer to analyze the touch-up paint for historic accuracy? It's inevitably going in this direction anyway, as pins become ancient artifacts, mothballed behind museum glass, but I think we should fend off this kind of preciousness as long as we can, and enjoy them.

I feel that at this stage in the history of pins, to preserve or to restore is really a personal preference, and open-minded people would ideally respect this. Players and collectors have different priorities. Some want to maximize collector value and not gameplay, others just want to play the darn thing as it was meant to be played. Resale value and stewardship are not as important. A majority might agree on one approach or another, but it that reason to condemn others?

Another big question is, how much time & money can one invest in a project? Should a beginner only take on a plentiful/undesirable/basket case pin because doing a rare or desirable pin "wrong" might upset others? Or if they can't invest in the "proper" tools & techniques to do it "right"?

As much as I may cringe as a poorly-restored or over-restored pin, I have to remember it's my own personal opinion. People who think there's a truly a right and a wrong way probably don't realize to what extent their thinking is influenced by past and current theory on art & antique preservation. Opinions on this have changed a lot over time, and will continue to change. And then we've got the added twist that pins are machine AND art, so it's more like antique cars, as some have pointed out, with all the categories and sub-categories from that field of collecting.

.....In the 1800s, Viollet-le-Duc, a prolific restorer of French Castles wrote: "To restore a building, is to reinstate it in a condition of completeness that could never have existed at any given time."

I guess that's my approach on pins.

And then in the late 1800s, folks reacted against that approach, called "Scrape":

....."Scrape bred Anti-Scrape, the stance immortalized by John Ruskin and William Morris that forbade all intervention."

And folks thought we should just let it all decay.

And it continued to evolve.

(Quotes from Decay and Restoration in the Arts: https://books.google.com/books?id=4m6NAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20)

#19 3 years ago

What we do depends on what we want and what we have learned to do well. I certainly like what Bruce can do, you have skills and agree this is the way to go if the paint is mostly there and is not flaking.

'A' grade quality games for a sensible price are not going to come my way here in my neck of the woods. So a poor game I can totally repaint as part of a deep restore and this has become one of my core competencies.

I don't feel the need to do a repaint for every game and will be learning to touch up cabinets once my next full restore is complete. I would accept in my collection any work of your quality any day. A good thoughtful topic and always worth discussing.

Thanks for the pointers to control sheen. No vote from me as I am in another camp. "The... it depends on the game condition camp".

Steve J.

#20 3 years ago
Quoted from Model237:

Here's a case of academic overreach, IMO, on a backglass restoration:
http://cool.conservation-us.org/anagpic/2013pdf/anagpic2013_ford_murray_paper.pdf

Agreed but WOW thats cool

--Jeff

#21 3 years ago

Depends on game, most I leave alone where possible. Touchup is difficult to get a very good match, as I still have yet to correct some bad touchups of the wrong shade of yellow on my Pinbot. I completely repainted a trashed Gottlieb Double Action woodrail, mainly because the scrapes were sooo bad, the backbox was painted over green, and the colors were also badly faded. I had to make the stencils as well, and I'm not interested in ever doing that again.

#22 3 years ago

I use a clear on cabinets and heads when I repaint them because of the sheen issue. Paints vary and using a clear evens out the sheen of the paints. It also gives more of a texture closer to what the game originally had. When you repaint, even when you're really careful, it is very easy to get a line from the stencils. It's a delicate balance between enough paint to cover and too much which causes the edge line.

#23 3 years ago
Quoted from EMsInKC:

I use a clear on cabinets and heads when I repaint them because of the sheen issue. Paints vary and using a clear evens out the sheen of the paints. It also gives more of a texture closer to what the game originally had. When you repaint, even when you're really careful, it is very easy to get a line from the stencils. It's a delicate balance between enough paint to cover and too much which causes the edge line.

Agreed. Good point about the depth issue. As indicated, I utilized a matte clear-coat aerosol spray on the Gottlieb 2001 depicted (photos 4, 5 and 6). I know of others who have had good results with satin clear-coat applications. The end result (i.e. uniform sheen) has held up for almost two decades thus far on one of my touched up cabinets. The sprayed cabinets are smooth to the touch, when the process is complete. Also, the whites are not blinding, which is my personal preference.

#24 3 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

Depends on game, most I leave alone where possible.....I had to make the stencils as well, and I'm not interested in ever doing that again.

Making stencils is a chore. 26 on my last double restore!

#25 3 years ago

I use clear contact paper for the stencils. No paint line feel between the colors, it always turns out well, yes, a lot of work but well worth it in the end if the cabinet and head need it.

#26 3 years ago

Hi
we can vote for A or B or C - I voted "C" - but as ForceFlow (post-4): I do very little in "touching up black areas" - by far I stay closer to "C" then to "B".

#27 3 years ago

AS a guy who repaints a lot (28+ machines in the last 12 months) i would like to have nice originals but they are very hard to come by these days, and when you do find them they are pricey. i do touch up pretty good originals if i find them. half my collection falls into the latter 2 categories.
i like finding basket cases as a few others have noted, these are far less expensive. i have save many games that 99% of people would have parted out. to me the restoration part of the hobby is the best part, right behind the hunt followed by the game play.
i repaint quite a few for others and do as they wish, but i have convinced them to NOT repaint some games due to being to nice.
when they are adamant about having it repainted. i have even saved the good cabinet and repainted a spare and found a home for the good cabinet. so i don't take repainting lightly. i understand the purest point of view but also understand the guy who want a great looking pin from days long ago.
who am i to judge what others do to there stuff. i gladly help to ensure it turns out the best it can. many can attest that i have helped with techniques i have learned over the years. if you saw the first repaint i did compared to what i do now it is night and day.
to me a ratty looking pin with a nice pf and bg is a diamond in the rough. i have seen many poorly restored games over the years
that is a major factor some don't like repaints, but a well done repaint looks fantastic IMO
just remember to each there own, and this is just a hobby.

#28 3 years ago

I usually try to clean the cabinet and perform a few subtle touchups.

However, like Cody and others have said, sometimes you just have to consider a repaint.

Below is the head for a basket case 1973 Gottlieb Hot Shot I picked up last year (ugh). I'm just getting around to stripping and sanding. Will be my first total repaint and the facet that has me worried is whether I can do a decent job on the webbing. A poor webbing job really ruins a resto in my eyes.

Lee

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#29 3 years ago

Below are two "before" photos of the main cabinet of my Gottlieb 2001. The two "after" photos show the mostly restored main cabinet, sitting aside the restored head. I have not completed the main cabinet touch-up. Nevertheless, the project is largely complete. In the "before" photos, note the missing wood on the main cabinet's left underside and the frayed right underside.

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#30 3 years ago

Well done! Great job.

#31 3 years ago
Quoted from ZNET:

Below are two "before" photos of the main cabinet of my Gottlieb 2001. The two "after" photos show the mostly restored main cabinet, sitting aside the restored head. I have not completed the main cabinet touch-up. Nevertheless, the project is largely complete. In the "before" photos, note the missing wood on the main cabinet's left underside and the frayed right underside.

I was talking to Pete about that game months ago, but passed on it based on the large piece of wood missing and the overall condition (wanted to make a really nice Dimension with original paint cab). Looks great, did you do all the work yourself?

#32 3 years ago

I don't like bare wood on the play field, ruts or splinters.Colors can be matched,paint dropped in and leveled with a single-blade "Planer".Cabinets are a different story,clean them the best you can,Re-Glue if necessary,wax.In my recent refurbish the head was broken in pieces, I saved the front but the sides must be re-painted and stenciled.I am not so concerned about Factory as I am ending up with something that will blend in.I drive a 70 Chevy Truck(original paint with rust),use a 1965 and 66 Simplicity and Allis Chalmers mower(original paint and rust),but go on the lake in a 1955 Barbour mahogany runabout(extensive re-paint and varnish) and cut trees with a 1978 John Deere chainsaw(new paint). I like them all.I do not see myself re-painting a pinball machine cabinet( but I really want to).

#33 3 years ago

ive only done 4 repaints and I got 2 more scheduled . I do about 1 a year and I get better with each one. I had a spin a card in Allentown that was painted all white . Stencils are tough sometimes and webbing is an art form. But I love nice looking games with a shiny coin door and new red flipper and start buttons for pins in my collection. 2001/ Dimension is a bitch to stencil. Especially when my cabinet was painted yellow. I had to use ghost stencils that appeared after sanding. Matching up the blue and red and leaving the open white intersecting areas was very frustrating .

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#34 3 years ago
Quoted from stashyboy:

I was talking to Pete about that game months ago, but passed on it based on the large piece of wood missing and the overall condition (wanted to make a really nice Dimension with original paint cab). Looks great, did you do all the work yourself?

Thanks very much. The cabinet restoration is my amateurish effort at reconstruction. I enjoy the cosmetic fixes and spending some alone time in the garage. The photos below demonstrate the size of the missing wood on the cabinet's bottom edge. By the way, a big shout out to Pete of Whitehouse Station, NJ, who sold me this game. . .super nice guy. Pete showed me his shop and we spent a couple of hours talking pinball.

The playfield and backglass (shown below) were so well-preserved that I deemed the game to be a very good restoration candidate, despite the marginal cabinet. There is only one minor wear spot on the upper playfield. Most 2001s and Dimensions seem to have multiple (and often severe) wear spots beneath each kick-out hole. Also, the mechanicals appear to be quite clean and unmolested. The drop targets are intact. I bought a set of repro plastics from PinRescue. I'm almost ready to bring her to the dungeon with the rest of the line-up.

I do wish to mention that oldcarz, who posted here above, has a magnificent collection of beautifully restored games, with professionally repainted cabinets. His games look wonderful in his refinished gameroom space. My unfinished, utilitarian basement gameroom space accords better with original cabinets. I'm also gratified to learn of boilerman's efforts to save games which would otherwise find their way to the parts bin.

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#35 3 years ago
Quoted from ZNET:

Thanks very much. The cabinet restoration is my amateurish effort at reconstruction. I enjoy the cosmetic fixes and spending some alone time in the garage. The photos below demonstrate the size of the missing wood on the cabinet's bottom edge. By the way, a big shout out to Pete of Whitehouse Station, NJ, who sold me this game. . .super nice guy. Pete showed me his shop and we spent a couple of hours talking pinball.

I do wish to mention that oldcarz, who posted here above, has a magnificent collection of beautifully restored games, with professionally repainted cabinets. His games look wonderful in his refinished gameroom space. My unfinished, utilitarian basement gameroom space accords better with original cabinets. I'm also gratified to learn of boilerman's efforts to save games which would otherwise find their way to the parts bin.

Bruce,
Thank you for the shout out. In the spirit of this conversation, I should point out that many of the games are "originalists," having been carefully touched up with the similar technique that you are explaining. In fact, I want to thank you publicly for the helpful advice that you have given to me regarding my machines.

To be accurate, though, of the games pictured, only the Knock Out, Flying Turns, El Dorado and Riverboat have had professionally repainted cabinets.
All others are originals and have had, at the most, some tasteful touchups to the cabinet and/or playfields.

Like you, I'm also gratified to see the efforts of Boilerman, Kevin, Ken and others on the forums who do outstanding work!

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#36 3 years ago

What a gorgeous collection, oldcarz! Thanks for sharing!

#37 3 years ago

I stared at your pictures forever...thanks for sharing.

#38 3 years ago

Indeed,awesome stuff.Makes me want to take a second look at the woodies that come available in this area.I want a late-model wood rail that plays most like a modern EM,if that makes sense?Any suggestions,Thanks!

#39 3 years ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

Indeed,awesome stuff.Makes me want to take a second look at the woodies that come available in this area.I want a late-model wood rail that plays most like a modern EM,if that makes sense?Any suggestions,Thanks!

A well-tuned woodrail offers gameplay as good as or superior to many 3 inch flipper EMs. The Gottlieb 1950s woodrails featured more avenues to replay than any "modern" EM and most solid state games. The Williams woodrails are great as well.

1960 Gottlieb Spot-A-Card is about as close to a 1970s EM as there is, in my view. It's a terrific player's game with excellent objectives and lots of targets (and kick-out holes). After a long stint in my line-up, I sold mine years ago to a neighbor, so I still get to play it. The Roy Parker playfield art is excellent, although the backglass art is among Parker's weaker compositions. This title does come up for sale occasionally. Good examples can be found in the $850 range and excellent/pristine ones fetch about $1,400++.

There are so many wonderful woodrails. I hope that others will chime in with suggested titles.

#40 3 years ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

Indeed,awesome stuff.Makes me want to take a second look at the woodies that come available in this area.I want a late-model wood rail that plays most like a modern EM,if that makes sense?Any suggestions,Thanks!

Phil-lee, Here's 3 photos of my old Spot-A-Card. The game incorporates an unusual random card selection backglass illumination feature. I suggest that seek to play some woodrails to acquaint yourself with the genre. Just be sure to play only dialed-in games, with strong flippers, bumpers and kickers, lest you be misguided about just how much fun these old games can be. Perhaps a Pinsider local to you, with some woodrails, will extend an invitation, if you disclose your location?

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#41 3 years ago

Original survivors in stupid low play condition over everything else. Repaints by Pinhead52 aka Ken are amazing! I hate touchups 95% of the time they are noticeable and look like hell. Repaints with the right webbing look amazing along with new chrome and metal. I am in that 5% of the EM crowd that pays top dollar to find the best example in collectors quality. I want the best and to me it worth saving up 500-1200 more to find a better example. To each their own.

#42 3 years ago

Not normally as noticeable as complete repaints Rat!!

#43 3 years ago

That's a gorgeous Spot-A-Card!

In the same vein as the repaint discussion, I wonder which folks would sand out the cigarette burns?

I would, within reason, even though I can understand why someone would prefer to keep like the direct visual reference to the smoke-filled rooms of the woodrail heyday.

I agree with Rat on the touchup question. I worked for years in a fine art gallery, and we would often have to remove bad touchups that tend to accumulate on old paintings. After a number of years they stick out badly - paints don't age the same, etc. Not that you can repaint a painting, but touchups are mostly worse than doing nothing.

#44 3 years ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

Indeed,awesome stuff.Makes me want to take a second look at the woodies that come available in this area.I want a late-model wood rail that plays most like a modern EM,if that makes sense?Any suggestions,Thanks!

Other popular later woodrails are -

Criss Cross
Sittin Pretty
Lightning Ball
World Beauties

#45 3 years ago
Quoted from ZNET:

A well-tuned woodrail offers gameplay as good as or superior to many 3 inch flipper EMs. The Gottlieb 1950s woodrails featured more avenues to replay than any "modern" EM and most solid state games. The Williams woodrails are great as well.
1960 Gottlieb Spot-A-Card is about as close to a 1970s EM as there is, in my view. It's a terrific player's game with excellent objectives and lots of targets (and kick-out holes). After a long stint in my line-up, I sold mine years ago to a neighbor, so I still get to play it. The Roy Parker playfield art is excellent, although the backglass art is among Parker's weaker compositions. This title does come up for sale occasionally. Good examples can be found in the $850 range and excellent/pristine ones fetch about $1,400++.
There are so many wonderful woodrails. I hope that others will chime in with suggested titles.

I agree with Znet's opinion about the Spot-a-Card, and will share that initially it was a game that bored me. My first impression was based on playing a poorly tuned example and I never gave one a 2nd look until one of my friends got one and restored it and tuned it properly. Although I don't have one in my collection, it is the first game that I play at my friend's house and it is definitely a challenging game. Recently had a chance to see and play a *gorgeous* restored one at Allentown, owned by one of our local Pinsiders. It was in the free play area, but not for sale...

Also agree with Shapeshifter's recommendations. I had two Criss Cross machines over the years. Loved the artwork, but admittedly, not a big fan of roto targets. They are a finicky mechanism and even when they do work flawlessly for awhile, something does act up from time to time. If you know how to tweak and tune, you can keep them tamed, but would recommend a newbie to be cautioned...

Sittin Pretty is beautiful and love playing the game. I don't have one, but another friend has one and it gets played when I visit. Again...watch out for the roto.

Haven't played the World Beauties, but have played Lightning Ball. That's a FUN game with the 3 slingshots that send the ball around the playfield.

I'll add to the discussion the 1959 Miss Annabelle. It was Gottlieb's first single player reel drum scoring machine (you said you wanted a suggestion to make it more like a modern EM). Colorful game, 4 flippers, nice artwork. Doesn't have the same multiple on field Specials as other early EMs and you have to essentially beat it on score or advancing the fan animation in the backbox to reveal Miss Annabelle. Winning replays on score isn't too difficult, particularly with the 4 flippers that help to keep the ball in play plus the flipper gap is relatively small compared to other woodies that have wide flipper gap.

Interesting, while gobble holes are the enemy in many games, in this one, you want to drop the ball in the gobble hole, when it is lit, to advance the fan. Here's some pix of one that I used to have, including the "character" cigarette burns in the lockdown bar and touchups to the paint as discussed earlier in the thread.

spotacard_(resized).jpg

ma1_(resized).jpg

ma2_(resized).jpg

#46 3 years ago

As a point of clarification, the poll in this thread is premised upon a professional result, whether touched-up or repainted, of a working EM's cabinet (for a good title, neither ultra rare nor common, like Gottlieb 2001), with a very good backglass and playfield. In other words, the cabinet is the weak link in the condition triad.

It's axiomatic that bad touch-ups and bad repaints are categorically undesirable. For example, nobody wants touch-ups that stand out now or stand out later. Likewise, few collectors are waiting in line to buy the repainted game with the super-sized webbing and brush marks. I suspect that there are more bad touch-up results than total repaints, primarily because a novice is more likely to tackle a touch-up job than a full repaint.

Most enthusiasts seem to agree that when done correctly, a touched-up or repainted cabinet can vastly improve the appearance of a game well into the future. Indeed, cabinet refurbishment can transform the destiny of some games from that of the parts bin to a slot in a collector's line-up.

Equally, investing no time/money to improve a cabinet's aesthetic is a perfectly reasonable option, especially for a game with a high fun value but a low dollar value.

#47 3 years ago

If I am going to keep the pin, then I try to restore so it looks like it just came from the Gottlieb factory. This restoration will include a repaint. The fact is, I can not afford to restore a pin to all its glory, if i am going to eventually resell it. The market just will not bear the price for a fully restored pin thats has a repainted cab and/or expensive parts like a new backglass. If the pin is going to be in my collection for less then ever, than I will make it look presentable without touching up/repainting the cab or replacing expensive parts.

FYI - I do not perform the repaint myself. I contract it out. Or, of course, purchase a restored pin from Stashyboy or Boilerman where I do not have to do one anything except play it.

#48 3 years ago

What is the correct paint "webbing" that was used on Gottliebs? I have seen 2 different types, one with silver lace like and the other with peppering of black. And while we are on it whats the best way to achieve that look?

#49 3 years ago
Quoted from cantbfrank:

If I am going to keep the pin, then I try to restore so it looks like it just came from the Gottlieb factory. This restoration will include a repaint. The fact is, I can not afford to restore a pin to all its glory, if i am going to eventually resell it. The market just will not bear the price for a fully restored pin thats has a repainted cab and/or expensive parts like a new backglass. If the pin is going to be in my collection for less then ever, than I will make it look presentable without touching up/repainting the cab or replacing expensive parts.
FYI - I do not perform the repaint myself. I contract it out. Or, of course, purchase a restored pin from Stashyboy or Boilerman where I do not have to do one anything except play it.

You have to be able to get the game really cheap if you're going to do a complete restoration on games that are not keepers, unless you just want to do it because you like doing it and you accept that you might lose money as part of just having a good time and doing what you want to do.

I've made some money on a couple. I've lost money on a couple. I don't keep a running tally because it's not a business to me. If I was doing a volume of them like some guys, then I would have to change. But if you only restore two or three a year, it's just not that big a deal. I've restored them thinking I was going to keep them for good, only to end up selling them. My biggest problem is, I hate bad backglasses, and I usually end up replacing them if they have anything but the smallest amount of issues. Right now I have 10 games and only three of those have the original glass in them. Ron Webb and Steve Azzam have more of my money than I like to think about...

#50 3 years ago
Quoted from SuperPinball:

What is the correct paint "webbing" that was used on Gottliebs? I have seen 2 different types, one with silver lace like and the other with peppering of black. And while we are on it whats the best way to achieve that look?

They used black spatter at times, and webbing at other times. It depends on the game.

There's different techniques for doing the webbing. boilerman is an ace at it, I believe he uses a touch up gun to achieve the effect. I use a wire brush to do it. To make the webbing with a wire brush takes some practice. You have to have the brush close enough to the cab to get it to web and not spatter. I always practice before I do it-every time.

It also comes in a can, but it's way too thick and it looks like crap. One of the biggest issues with repaints and webbing is guys make the webbing too thick, and they put too much of it on the cab. You don't have to cover every square inch of the cab with webbing. On a lot of games, it can be pretty sparse.

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