To me, it feels like trouble. Save yourself a headache and advise him to contact a professional game company.

I'm not an operator and have no idea what everything entails, but why not go the traditional route? Put them on location and negotiate a split. 60/40 (you/location) or 70/30 etc. I wouldn't put anything on route you wouldn't want to get beat up or want to maintain on a regular basis (ie. easy to clean, shop, rebuild mechs etc.)

Been covered many times. You'll need a business license, insurance, enough money to cover game setup, repair, servicing. By the time the venue owner pays you enough for all that it will be way cheaper for them to just buy the games themselves.

A route operator has economy of scale to split those costs among all the locations.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/is-there-any-money-in-routing

That's not a good arrangement. I would suggest to the owner a one or two month trial period where earnings are split 50/50 and at the end of the trial period, you can discuss future plans.

Reset the earnings audits with the business owner watching, then put enough money in to start a game, then go back into earnings audits to show the owner that every quarter you dropped was counted. Audits keep everybody honest.

Operating games is the best way to support the hobby. I enjoyed every minute of it when I had games out. Good luck.

A couple of red flags IMHO.

“Newly opened Barcade” so does he already have games in there, and if so, why is he contacting you? If not, shouldn’t he have thought of games before opening a barcade?

Sounds like he’s proposing to you how to run your business. Should be the other way around. YOU call the shots.

Just seems to me like a fishy deal that you should avoid. I wouldn’t waste the energy.

Insurance and liability are your chief concerns, solve that before even talking about revenue.

And if this “barcade” owner knew what the hell they were doing this would not have been the approach they would have used.

Avoid. Danger Will Robinson.

If these games are going to be on Freeplay then never in a million years even consider. Not even if the money is right.

Who will be responsible for licenses ? Get your own insurance, don't ever depend on others.

LTG : )

Those older games are gonna break all the time. I wouldn’t bother with this if you aren’t willing to use the newer games.

I think everybody else has give you good advice. It’s a hassle and it’s an odd arrangement, you’d be the operator here so a coin box split (60/40 your favor) probably the way to go.

I mean, unless you can get more in rent. Which may be the case. Has he talked monthly offer yet? If it’s over $200 a game that might be a better deal for you.

As far as the licensing and insurance etc…look, I had a friend who operated like 60 games or so for 15 years in nyc without doing any of that shit. It’s up to you if you want to take the risks (Fines, lawsuits, etc)

Well you know he isn't going to be an operator... and he's asking you to be an operator for a fixed cost.

That's bad in every which way. And certainly don't get into any deal that starts off with him getting the best deal like a high split.

What you should be asking yourself is if you want to get into operating... because that's exactly what this would result in. You having liability, you having equipment you paid for being used, and you being expected to fix it.

Pins require weekly upkeep. Pins chew through consumables. Pins require service calls all the time for trivial things like coin jams, stuck balls, broken rubbers, etc.

Whatever you do, do not get into this to let some guy get the best of your stuff for a trivial small rental fee. If anything it should be the opposite... you tell him you will operate games like he wants there, but he needs to garuntee a monthly minimum take, and you can decide if you want to discuss a split with him or not for revenue beyond that minimum.

But that's only if you want to get into the idea of operating yourself.. and deciding if you will do it as a 'proper' legal business or try doing it under the table. The bar will have a hard time giving you that much cash regularly if you don't setup proper.

Think about it this way... do you want to have to go visit and service your games for $15/week? Most would say no. So that is why you need to have minimums or at least a commitment to do what it takes to make them earn.. and a way out if they don't.

Couldn’t he earn more
As a monthly
Rental than by doing coin split?

Just how
Much $ do you guys think a pin makes in monthly coin drop anyway?

Yeah, this is just odd all around. I wouldn't lease out games just to give up the coin drop. 60/40 is what I would go for minimum. 60 being yours.

I’m interested in this question myself. We’ve only ever done free play so my counts way over estimate.

One thing for sure, the rental fee would have to be high enough that the barcade owner couldn’t just write off as a loss leader and put the games on free play. You’d have to make it high enough that the barcade owner needs the equivalent of that rental fee in coin drop to make it worth his while. It’s why coin drop is the way it usually goes I presume since it adjust for the vagaries of variable income when there is an income split.

We have games on rent that are free play. We do it to share pinball in a community that hasn't had location pinball in a while. It isn't making us any money though, so I'd be careful going that route.

I would draft up a rent agreement for however long you want, I would do at least a year though. Then I would try and figure a monthly payment that is worth while for you. I would include that all maintenance costs will be on him with you performing the repairs. Include whatever you need to for the swapping out of games. Maybe make it so they can’t ask to swap games more than so often, so you don’t have to move games all the time.

Make sure you insurance will cover you for any loss you may sustain on the games. Or you could require their liability insurance to cover you as well in the rental agreement.

If I’m doing a more typical arrangement for coin drop split, I’m not getting out of bed for less than 80/20.

No.

If you do that, get a copy of their policy stating that you are covered.

Don't rely on the locations piece of paper.

LTG : )

Yep. Good call. You need them to prove coverage or the rental agreement is void. It needs to state this in the rental agreement too.

And this is why it’s almost never worth the trouble. I suspect many of us could live with doing something like this and making no money. Just knowing you are sharing with the community would be enough. Problem is that bar owner is making money. And he’s gonna do what he can to put liability in your lap not his should the need arise. Ever heard the term “it’s just business” ?

So by the time you’ve lawyered up enough to hammer out an agreement to make sure your equipment doesn’t get destroyed and you don’t lose your house if something bad happens with your games, all the air goes out of the balloon. Worst case scenario is tough to think about but if you ever get to that point you’ll be damn glad you did.

It’s why honestly it’s usually not worth doing unless there is a worthy financial incentive. There is so much damn red tape and your time that gets eaten up that you realize doing this for essentially free and with personal liability sucks. I force my business to at least pay me minimum wage for my hours there, even if I own the damn place. Don’t get me wrong I still love having it or I would close it. But this notion of set it and forget it and the money pours in needs to be dispelled in everyone who ever has this notion of monetizing their collection even with only good intentions.

I mean run the numbers and come up with a monthly rent that makes it worth it, float that to the bar owner. If they agree, then incur the expenses.

Really not trying to be a Debbie Downer here, but it would really be useful if a route operator would open their books granularly to given a full accounting of what it takes to break even here. I have tried to do it for my all you can play arcade, but those numbers are only peripherally related to the issues at hand.

1. Average coin drop per month.
2. Average hours put in each month on repair.
3. Insurance cost per month,
4. Repair costs per month.
5. Coin drop decrease over time per machine (where you have to turnover the machine to push revenue back up).

I can only comment on the fact that we initially targeted 10% of revenue towards repair costs. We were wrong, very very wrong. It’s less than that now but to begin with revenue was so low that it was the highest cost. My machines were not in tip top condition to begin with and not all new sterns so there’s that. All it takes is for something to short and that +$100 you made on coin drop becomes -$300 due to the $400 board you had to buy. Now it’s 3 more months before you are even back to zero

We made $225K revenue last year, we had operating costs of $175K, mostly labor and rent and insurance. I paid myself zero. For 4 years I have paid myself zero. I can afford to do that. The games are my capital as is my enjoyment Now you might be like “How the hell did you get to $175K expenses if you paid yourself zero ?” It happens. And yes we ran the business well. I have an excellent manager. Point is you will in starting this massively overestimate revenue and massively underestimate expenses (and time) And it will bury you if you are not in it for the long haul.

In my 10 years in the hobby I've thought about this quite a bit. It seems the only way for this to remotely be worth it is if you own the bar AND the machines. Liquor and beer is where the money is made, not pinball. Just an observation.

One day I'll have my bar with a row of pins. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

Guys with the barcades know this.

Drinks and food is where the money is.

LTG : )

I did this once. I literally made the bankers weep. Each week when they saw how much i was raking in, they were like damn bitch we can’t count all that scratch. Then I was like it ok bankers I did a tally for you. But they were like damnnnnnnn that literal stack of benjies, I was like hell yeah bitches. One dude, this big fat guy, even rolled around on my phat stacks.

Sounds like a headache. Hard pass.

you crazy dawg run.

Correct. We are moving towards 100% take in drop and no split. If you want the newest stuff that bring in the best crowds, splits are gone.

They are making the real money on the alcohol and any draw to get people off their ass from watching Netflix is huge for a bar nowadays. A simple presentation with a basic sheet based on average monthly plays and drinks bought per patron can show an owner the value of providing an increase in customers with entertainment.

Games are increasing in price steadily and earnings don’t correlate with that, longer ROI.

There is more money in flipping NIB LE’s than operating in 2023!

It will be called "Metal Mike's" and will be furbished with heavy metal everything.

I'm startin my own business. You want in?

maxresdefault (1) (resized).jpg

The op didn't share the number being floated... but don't go through all the exercise to consider a deal unless the guy is on the right order of magnitude to start with.

If he thinks he can rent kit from you for a couple hundred a month... you better just stop now unless you want to be a slave. It has to be something that he realizes he's paying for you, services, overhead, AND the games.. not just the games. Don't sell yourself short by assuming "I already have the games.. so its no cost to me".

Don't whore yourself out for slave wages in a deal that will trap you. It's different when you operate yourself out of a passion... because you are the one making the decisions on when/how much/etc. Putting yourself into a rental agreement takes away that flex.

Even if you are doing game audits he can try to make something up.

True, but I've met a guy at a convention that routes to a couple of places taking quarters and he said that's his only job. Not sure how much he pulls but he told me he has a lot of games and it's free rent to keep them on a location on top of generating money.

Could do a trial with part of you collection. Make sure there is an out if you want. If a machine goes down and you have to bring in a replacement and then run any issues. A well know Stern dealer here, read the website. Not sure how popular rental is but these are pinball guys and prices:

https://littleshopofgames.com/product-category/pinball-machine-rental/

Around here, pinheads have a rep as lousy tippers and non-drinkers. Certainly not the case for all of us but I’ve heard the complaints.

Any worries about that in trying to convince them to give you 100 percent take? Or are players in your scene less
Hurt up and thirstier?

You need to school these fools

Lousy tipper got me MAD

But you are a lousy tipper. And you’re not even good at pinball.

What? I'm a lot of things Chuck but lousy tipper ain't one of em.

Isn't renting games the best return. Some dude pays too much for a game to keep in house that he could have bought after less than year and probably didn't use that much. I would think if you can make renting work you have found a sweet gig because the game comes back to you.

Now, this is different because usually home players rent and this is a location pin. That means way more use, so more wear and tear. However, you still get a nice monthly fee and keep the game at the end.

This seems really simple. Just give him a rental number worth the wear and tear. Work in a cost to move games in an out so he isn't abusing that. If he is willing to over pay for renting then you are the winner. Who cares about coin droop at that point because you are making money whether the game is used or not.

So here is the question I’ve always wondered for those running a route. If you placed a Ms Pac-Man versus the latest Stern pin which would have the greatest ROI ? I’ve always assumed it would make more sense to put out 10 Ms Pacmans and no pins, but I don’t run a route. I can say for sure the Ms Pac-Man gets played way more at my arcade. Now you can sell that pin with little depreciation and rarity is a bit more there and it’s $1 or $2 a play not 25 cents so perhaps the upfront split in take given the operator not venue owner is fronting the $10K cost might be more favorable on the pin. But what the hell do I know. I will not be running a route anytime soon but the economics for those who do, do interest me.

As to the comment that someone knows a person who runs a route who makes bank, well I believe that about as much as I believe Gameseum was a smash financial success.

Depends on the rent per month. There is an amount that will make it worthwhile, is it $700PM is it $1000PM.
I've done it and its worked for me. You need to work out how much that figure is and how much your time is worth. Minimizing the blast radius of financial exposure can eliminate your need for insurance.

We can meet in the park after school dickhead

Mike ain’t no lousy tipper. He gave me a whole quarter once and said I should go play that EM while he worked on Deadpool. He was going to stop the start button from flashing so it wouldn’t confuse people.

Seriously Gryszzz move to Oklahoma and start your own dispensary/bar/arcade. I’ll come play a game or two.

It totally depends on the kind of locations and operation you are targeting. A MsPac/Galaga excels at needing nothing and getting casual play. But you can't put 3 of them in a room to increase draw or take. So are you building a route around the traditional route of putting some stuff in the local dennys and every other random spot.. or are you running arcades?

From a single piece point of view, the combo game will win because of it's lower cost and almost zero overhead. You can put it almost anywhere too. But a crane will still outperform both in the same situation by multiples.

Even as hot as we all think pins are - they still earn poorly relative to the alternatives. They earn enough to make it worth it when you have a good spot, but it ain't gonna take away your professional career.

A lot could depend on the location.

Customers may dump money in one and not the other. No matter which cost more to buy or maintain.

LTG : )

I'm guessing Claw Machine scenario is only good for places that have intro to gambling for kids, but not a barcade for adults.

Yeah; no.
He buys the machines and operates them... himself... owns all repairs for his own stuff... and then he's a Barcade operator.

Renting your machines ... "depreciating" your value... and only paying you a fixed fee is just not reasonable and doesn't make him a Barcade operator.
Give him your local stern distributors' sales phone number and ask him to buy his own stuff.

Just not sure this "bar cade" operator knows what he's doing (unless his motive is to screw you). I'm betting he read some trade article(s) about the success of "barcades" and wants to get in on the action with no risk on his end.

Or maybe I'm looking at this wrong - maybe he is clueless... buy some new sterns... at whatever they cost retail now. Offer them to him at Retail/4-6months ... so at the end of the rotation the are fully paid off. Then he can keep all the coin drop.
(No; I'm sure he's not that... uneducated...)

Our primary business is anything but pinball. We didn’t have a pin until year 9.

We got our first pin. (A T3) during the pandemic because it popped up dirt cheap on the Facebook marketplace at 4am. After that I kinda went overboard on the WPC’s.

They are an amenity that drives additional F&B sales, not a source of reliable revenue. The majority of the coin drop is from casual players.

I’ve got two pins on location in another bar elsewhere and they are not worth having there. I also rent two pins to my brother a couple states over and rotate one in/out when I visit him.

To even consider putting a pin at today’s prices on location the split is gonna be 100/0. Even then, not sure it’s worth the hassle.

Some truths are universal but its not too bad around here in the Midwest.

There are definitely some hardcore players here that only talk in replays and soda they drink out at their car, fortunately those players aren't as prevalent anymore as the younger crowd embraces pinball. Casuals are the money maker for the operator and the bar location. I do believe in catering to both but always give the nod to the casuals as they keep the lights on, pinheads love to remind you how much money they just dropped in XYZ game last week, where casuals are in the background feeding the games and just having a good time.

We had a guy at our league that the staff had to talk to because he constantly brought in his on gas station drink into the place, I wasn't there but that's just plain rude. Speaking of leagues, they are a great way to show a business that you have steady food/drink purchases on a certain night. 65% of our league drink and usually have over 2 beers with food. Also people in leagues bring friends or family members that even if they don't play, will eat/drink.

I have friends that moonlight for bars doing trivia or karaoke. The going rate for a bar to pay them for one night of service is $4-$600 depending on the size and most places have a weekly night for these events, those costs add up to a location. Those events also have the same issues we see in pinheads, people that go for just the entertainment and don't buy anything, however a bar is willing to pay it to get people in the door. The difficult part an operator has is that his people/following is not set to a certain time or night. I can just as easily make the same amount of food and beverage GP but its not concentrated in a night and therefore easy to see for a bar owner. Education can get them there to understand.

Dropping a decent lineup of games will cost them floor space and nominal electricity. Its a win/win if the right operator and bar owner are in agreement. I'm not all 100% and most are still 75/25, but the 100% guys will get all the new games, launch parties, more league nights and monthly tournaments. Most bar owners understand that if costs go up, so does the end price to the consumer, they deal with food price fluctuation daily so its a relevant common ground in discussions.

Pinball is stuck in a weird valuation right now, the public will not pay more than $1 a play but costs are going up, something has to give and for me its the split.