(Topic ID: 83093)

removing warming resistors


By SUPERBEE

5 years ago



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  • 92 posts
  • 29 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 months ago by GRUMPY
  • Topic is favorited by 59 Pinsiders

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There are 92 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
#51 4 years ago

I've replaced most all of them (not sure why I bought only 10 -- that's *not* a full set, whoops) now most of the flash lamps are working perfectly! HOLY CRAP! IT'S LIKE A DIFFERENT GAME! and it's really awesome.

#52 4 years ago

You'll be needing a pair of shades now

#53 4 years ago
Quoted from bikko:

True. That's probably pretty likely. Although there were still legs in some of the holes.

Quoted from Atomicboy:

Then can get so hot they actual desolder themselves from the boards.

Here's another thing to consider about these resistor boards: The resistors should be mounted slightly up off the board, and with a little space between adjacent resistors to allow air to circulate. The resistors are only held in by the leads, and there is no "mechanical connection". With large heavy components like this it is desired to have some sort of physical means to support the weight of such a component other than relying on just its leads or the soldering. That's a recipe for broken leads and cracked solder when they are exposed to a lot of vibration under the playfield. If they don't desolder themselves, plenty of opportunity for the leads to become weak and break off from the vibration (this is when you find the resistor in the bottom of the cabinet with the leads still soldered in the boards) I also add a couple tie wraps around the board to improve long term reliability. Although personally I am not a fan of this, I have also seen games where these resistors have been hot glued to the boards.

4 months later
#54 4 years ago

All,

I've got issues with mine too. Can someone verify if all 6 boards under the play field AND the board on the back of the backglass are supposed to be wired identically.

ie... 2 small on the sides, and 2 large in the middle.

On 7 different boards I have 5 different combinations... and some obvious hacking.

Thanks... working on LEDs to... I assume chopping the grounds is the best way to go?

If the grounds are removed, then are these boards accomplishing anything? or can ALL the wires and boards be removed and heat shrunk (assuming wire connections maintained).

Thanks for any info.

#55 4 years ago

if i recall sys 11 uses high power to run the coils and flashlamps. You can put the warming resistors, but you need to keep the other ones to choke the voltage down to 12v. if you pull all of them you are going to run high voltage to the flash lamps which will be incredibly bright, but for a really short time.

#56 4 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

All you need to do is remove the ground wire off of each resistor board. That will remove the warming resistor from the circuit without removeing the the droping resistor for the led. There is usally only one ground on each board, put heat shrink on the end and your done.

Grumpy,

I followed your advice to cut the ground wires. I tested it on the backglass board only, and the LEDs still were on with the ground disconnected. Any ideas?

#57 4 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

You remove the ground wires, that way no mistakes in removing wrong resistor.

Grumpy is correct, remove the ground wires and tape them together off board, make sure if you take two ground wires off one board that they stay connected together, and tape them off.... that's it, all done...

#58 4 years ago
Quoted from kilmarnock1350:

Grumpy,
I followed your advice to cut the ground wires. I tested it on the backglass board only, and the LEDs still were on with the ground disconnected. Any ideas?

Some of the backglass flashers are connected to boards under the playfield. Only one or two are connect to the board behind the backglass.

#59 4 years ago
Quoted from kilmarnock1350:

All,
I've got issues with mine too. Can someone verify if all 6 boards under the play field AND the board on the back of the backglass are supposed to be wired identically.
ie... 2 small on the sides, and 2 large in the middle.
On 7 different boards I have 5 different combinations... and some obvious hacking.
Thanks... working on LEDs to... I assume chopping the grounds is the best way to go?
If the grounds are removed, then are these boards accomplishing anything? or can ALL the wires and boards be removed and heat shrunk (assuming wire connections maintained).
Thanks for any info.

You MUST leave the boards in, the 3-5 ohm resistors are in series to the flashlamps to bring the 28V down to 12V.
The 330 ohms are the warming resistors and are hooked from the return side of the flasher to ground.

If you remove the 5 ohm resistor the flasher won't work, if you remove the +28V wire the flasher won't work, if you remove the solenoid trigger the flasher won't work, if you remove the board the flasher won't work.

the only correct moves are remove only the 330 ohm resistors (not recommended) or remove the ground wires and connected them together offboard (the correct solution). removing the ground wire removes the 330 ohm resistors from the circuit.

#60 4 years ago

removing the 330 ohm resistors is an acceptable mod even if you decide to go back to incandescent bulbs. Williams removed the 330 ohm from the circuits starting with Big Guns (system 11 B)

#61 4 years ago
Quoted from kilmarnock1350:

I followed your advice to cut the ground wires. I tested it on the backglass board only, and the LEDs still were on with the ground disconnected. Any ideas?

A 28 year old machine has a lot of fingers in it. Like I said if you remove the ground wire there is no path for the warming resistor to work and later it can be put back in a minute. This only works on correctly working pins. If your boards don't look factory post a pic so we can see whats wrong with what you have.

#62 4 years ago
Quoted from themadman:

You MUST leave the boards in, the 3-5 ohm resistors are in series to the flashlamps to bring the 28V down to 12V.
The 330 ohms are the warming resistors and are hooked from the return side of the flasher to ground.
If you remove the 5 ohm resistor the flasher won't work, if you remove the +28V wire the flasher won't work, if you remove the solenoid trigger the flasher won't work, if you remove the board the flasher won't work.
the only correct moves are remove only the 330 ohm resistors (not recommended) or remove the ground wires and connected them together offboard (the correct solution). removing the ground wire removes the 330 ohm resistors from the circuit.

I did this with high speed, it works great ( the correct Solution )

#63 4 years ago

This would make a nice tutorial. It comes up all the time

#64 4 years ago

Want to add LED's to your System 11 Game?
Are the Flashers Staying on all of the time and not interacting with your gameplay?

Tutorial without pictures:

Find the small Resistor Boards that the flashers have wires connected to.
Unsolder the ground wire from that board, there may be 2 ground wires soldered to the same place...
Make sure you solder those two ground wires together after removing them from the little board.
Wrap the ends of the ground wires with electrical tape, or use heat shrink to keep the ground wires from accidentally grounding something else they may come in contact with... Install LED where flasher once was. Enjoy The Flasher working Properly.

There may be several boards across your system 11 play field, they mostly look the same. Don't forget the backbox.

... is this good enough? or have I forgotten something?

#65 4 years ago

Another F14 specific question:

Is there one flasher behind the backglas for every flasher circuit?

I don't want to unsolder something on the flasher boards.
So I'll need to leave one regular bulb in every flasher circuit.

Some of you are keeping regular bulbs in the flasher row (6 flashers) in the backboard of the playfield.

But it is a pain in the ass to change them when they are burned.
Changing a bulb in the backbox would be much easier.

#66 4 years ago

Ups, sorry bad idea. Forget it.

There are only 2 Flashers in the backbox for flasher circuit 9.

1 month later
#67 4 years ago

OK, so I want to switch my PinBot over to LED flashers. Turns out I'm missing some of the resistors already, see photos. I would want to replace them just to keep the game as close to original condition as possible. (Can somebody tell me where to get replacements? PInball Life and Marco don't seem to carry them.)

I'm still a noob at things electronic, so bear with me:

-

Quoted from Chosen_S:Want to add LED's to your System 11 Game?
Are the Flashers Staying on all of the time and not interacting with your gameplay?
Tutorial without pictures:
Find the small Resistor Boards that the flashers have wires connected to.
Unsolder the ground wire from that board, there may be 2 ground wires soldered to the same place...
Make sure you solder those two ground wires together after removing them from the little board.
Wrap the ends of the ground wires with electrical tape, or use heat shrink to keep the ground wires from accidentally grounding something else they may come in contact with... Install LED where flasher once was. Enjoy The Flasher working Properly.
There may be several boards across your system 11 play field, they mostly look the same. Don't forget the backbox.
... is this good enough? or have I forgotten something?

In my game (and I assume many others) there are several flasher boards that are daisy chained. Do I need to simply unsolder the first in the series? I have to look more closely but I think the playfield boards are all in one loop, presume the backboard flashers are separate.

Thanks for patient advice!

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#68 4 years ago

Second question: PinBot uses #1251 flashers in 2 locations. I haven't found an LED replacement for those. If somebody knows a proper replacement bulb I'd love to know about it; otherwise I'm assuming I would need to leave the boards that drive those bulbs alone?

#69 4 years ago

Sethbenjamin,

Here is the link to Marco for the entire board: http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/B-11263 They also stock the 330 ohm and 5 ohm resistor that are on the boards. If you can do basic soldering it would be a lot cheaper to buy the missing resistors and solder them into the existing board. Here is the link to the resistors:

http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/R10W5
http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/R7W330

I restored both a Pin Bot and F-14 so I bought one new board and used it to swap out then repair the board that was removed then use that one to swap out the next and so on. If you check you may find those missing resistors in the bottom of the cabinet as they tend to get hot and then the resistor falls off the board into the cabinet. I found most of mine that were missing and only had to buy a few.

Hope this helps.

Al

#70 4 years ago
Quoted from sethbenjamin:

Second question: PinBot uses #1251 flashers in 2 locations. I haven't found an LED replacement for those. If somebody knows a proper replacement bulb I'd love to know about it; otherwise I'm assuming I would need to leave the boards that drive those bulbs alone?

Look for a common ground black wire that is connected to the little boards, unsolder it , it there's more than 1 black wire connected to the same spot disconnect both, but they've them soldered together, wrap them up. Put in an LED flasher and test it... There are no 1251 leds, use incandescents

#71 4 years ago

Charleston - Yeah, I'm plenty comfortable soldering so I'll plan to replace the resistors, not the boards - thanks for the link, I searched but didn't find those!
Did you go LED on the topper bulbs as well?

Quoted from Chosen_S:

Look for a common ground black wire that is connected to the little boards, unsolder it , it there's more than 1 black wire connected to the same spot disconnect both, but they've them soldered together, wrap them up. Put in an LED flasher and test it...

There are ground connections on both sides of the boards, save one. I've been staring at the wiring itself to assess where the loop begins and ends but it's making me go a little crosseyed.
One of the boards - the first in the line, as far as I can see - controls the 1251s, so I won't be touching that one. There are 3 more flasher boards under the playfield; of these, 2 have pairs of ground wires on either side of the board, but what I take to be the last has, naturally, only one. My question is, if I simply disconnect the grounds on the second board (since the 1st is controls the 1251s), am I done/does that not effectively disconnect the grounds from the whole line? I'm fine with disconnecting all of them of course, if that's what it takes. Just trying to understand/avoid extra work.

#72 4 years ago

Semi-related: Just looking under the hood at my recently acquired Diner - no warming resistors/flasher boards under the playfield. Does that mean that it's a late enough Sys 11 to simply switch over to LED flashers, or am I missing something?

#73 4 years ago
Quoted from sethbenjamin:

One of the boards - the first in the line, as far as I can see - controls the 1251s, so I won't be touching that one. There are 3 more flasher boards under the playfield; of these, 2 have pairs of ground wires on either side of the board, but what I take to be the last has, naturally, only one. My question is, if I simply disconnect the grounds on the second board (since the 1st is controls the 1251s), am I done/does that not effectively disconnect the grounds from the whole line? I'm fine with disconnecting all of them of course, if that's what it takes. Just trying to understand/avoid extra work.

You'd have to disconnect the ground then seperate the two wires and this should break the daisy chain ground to the rest of the boards. Also I don't think the 1251's have a board. They are running at 24V's, the whole point of the 5 ohm resistors (or was it 10 Ohm) is to drop the voltage from 24 volts down to 12V.

#74 4 years ago
Quoted from sethbenjamin:

Semi-related: Just looking under the hood at my recently acquired Diner - no warming resistors/flasher boards under the playfield. Does that mean that it's a late enough Sys 11 to simply switch over to LED flashers, or am I missing something?

System 11B starting with Big Guns eliminated the keep warm resistor and moved all the voltage drop resistors to a single board. That single board is in the bottom of the cabinet on the first 3 games and then is the interconnect board on the head for the rest of the games.

There is still an LED flasher issue with these games. If you put in LED flashbulbs you'll notice that the bulbs on circuits 3, 4, 6 and 7 will blink a little when you hit the flippers. To fix this remove Diodes D3, D4 , D6 and D7 from the aux driver board, then add diodes to the coils at solenoids 3,4,6 and 7.

#75 4 years ago

Great info, thanks for the assist!

#76 4 years ago

Success! PinBot now has LEDs in all playfield locations. Really cool effect, lots of punch. Once I get some more pennies saved up I'll give F-14 the same treatment.

#77 4 years ago

#1251 LED Bulbs!! They're totally overpriced, but THEY EXIST:

http://bcspinball.com/1251-1683-1156-type-flashers/

#78 4 years ago
Quoted from sethbenjamin:

#1251 LED Bulbs!! They're totally overpriced, but THEY EXIST:
http://bcspinball.com/1251-1683-1156-type-flashers/

I think I paid more for my incandescents

1 year later
#79 3 years ago
Quoted from sethbenjamin:

Success! PinBot now has LEDs in all playfield locations. Really cool effect, lots of punch. Once I get some more pennies saved up I'll give F-14 the same treatment.

so just for reference, did you remove the ground wire from every resistor board?

#80 3 years ago

Bump it up, hoping for a reply...Also, looking at my boards, there are ground wire(s) attached to both sides of most of the boards...

#81 3 years ago

That's what I did to my PinBot, cut the ground wire on each side for the board as each side is its own circuit, when I installed LED Flashers.
At least for me, found out later some of the flashers were wired in parallel (burned them out pretty fast when 2x the voltage was going through the LED's)
instead of in series (which would be the proper way according to the manual).

2 years later
#82 6 months ago

Love finding these old threads that answer my questions. Converted a Pinbot to LEDs and had the same problems as others on here. All good now.

1 month later
#83 5 months ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

this one is cake. Simply remove the 330 ohm warming resistors from all of the individual boards. These can stay off the game even if you put incandescents back into the game. Williams got rid of the warming resistors starting with Big Guns yet they didn't change anything else in the circuits. They moved all the resistors to 1 board and then a couple games later they put them all on the interconnect board.
The trickier problem is when putting flashlamps into games that had the Aux power driver board (again starting with Big Guns ). On those games if you put LED flashlamps into circuits #3, 4, 6 or 7, those flashlamps will go off anytime you hit the flippers or any other 50 V coils. On those circuits you would need to cut diodes 3,4,6 and 7 off the aux driver board and then install diodes on coils #3,4, 6 and 7.

This is happening on my high speed, can someone provide more info on diodes #3,4,6 and 7 on the aux driver board and coils?

#84 5 months ago
Quoted from Chynnalou:

This is happening on my high speed, can someone provide more info on diodes #3,4,6 and 7 on the aux driver board and coils?

High Speed doesn't have an Aux driver board so you don't need to cut diodes and add diodes. You just need to removing the warming resistors

It has little boards with 2 power resistors soldered to them. The 10 ohm resistor is needed to achieve the correct voltage. The 330 ohm "warming" resistor is the one that is bleeding the current through. Cut those from the boards (test it out with 1 before cutting the rest). I believe HS has all 6 volt bulbs in it (#63) Did you buy 6V flash bulbs or do you have 12V bulbs? I usually rearrange the flashlamp circuits and change the sockets from being wired in series (6V) to being wired in Parallel (12V) and then you can use the standard 12V bulbs.

#85 5 months ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

High Speed doesn't have an Aux driver board so you don't need to cut diodes and add diodes. You just need to removing the warming resistors
It has little boards with 2 power resistors soldered to them. The 10 ohm resistor is needed to achieve the correct voltage. The 330 ohm "warming" resistor is the one that is bleeding the current through. Cut those from the boards (test it out with 1 before cutting the rest). I believe HS has all 6 volt bulbs in it (#63) Did you buy 6V flash bulbs or do you have 12V bulbs? I usually rearrange the flashlamp circuits and change the sockets from being wired in series (6V) to being wired in Parallel (12V) and then you can use the standard 12V bulbs.

That's why I couldn't find aux driver board. I already unsoldered ground wires from resister boards, keeping grounds connected where there are two. Flashers still blink when flippers are hit. LED flashers are 12v.

#86 5 months ago
Quoted from Chynnalou:

That's why I couldn't find aux driver board. I already unsoldered ground wires from resister boards, keeping grounds connected where there are two. Flashers still blink when flippers are hit. LED flashers are 12v.

Which flasher's? All of them? Don't think I've seen this (other than on CFTBL which I've never had the time to figure out)

On the boards with Aux driver boards it's leaking voltage from the 50V to 25V circuits which cause it. On High speed there are NO computer controlled 50V coils for the voltage to bleed from. There are 50V coils in the game but they are turned on by the computer controlled 25V relays.

#87 5 months ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

Which flasher's? All of them? Don't think I've seen this (other than on CFTBL which I've never had the time to figure out)
On the boards with Aux driver boards it's leaking voltage from the 50V to 25V circuits which cause it. On High speed there are NO computer controlled 50V coils for the voltage to bleed from. There are 50V coils in the game but they are turned on by the computer controlled 25V relays.

All flashers.

#88 5 months ago

You can try replacing the diodes on the flipper coils.

#89 5 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

You can try replacing the diodes on the flipper coils.

Replace with what? Brand new(same as original) or different diodes?

#90 5 months ago
Quoted from Chynnalou:

Replace with what? Brand new(same as original) or different diodes?

If you get some 1n4007 diodes you can you them on the coils, lamps and switches. You can use them anywhere a 1n400x diode is used.

1 week later
#91 4 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

If you get some 1n4007 diodes you can you them on the coils, lamps and switches. You can use them anywhere a 1n400x diode is used.

Ok, Thanks. I will order some and post results.

#92 4 months ago
Quoted from Chynnalou:

I will order some and post results.

Remember that they must be installed in the correct direction.

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