(Topic ID: 200926)

Remote battery holder question


By Wiggy

1 year ago



Topic Stats

  • 53 posts
  • 27 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by TheHueManatee
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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    There are 53 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
    #1 1 year ago

    New to pinball, so need some advice..

    Looking to add a remote battery holder to my game. Found this thing at Pinball Heaven that doesnt require me to solder or to remove the pcb out.

    https://www.pinball.co.uk/shop/general-parts-spares-accessories/remote-battery-holder/

    But is it any good? Will the croc clips give a good stable connection?

    #2 1 year ago

    Ya, it'll work. But I think the wire leads for that particular implementation are too short. They need to be long enough to reach the bottom of the head so there is no strain on them.

    What game are you considering this solution for?

    Perhaps an NVRAM would be a better solution.
    --
    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
    http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

    -1
    #3 1 year ago

    WPC game. Been told its quite the hassle adding NVRAM to those.

    Would buying one of these and soldering on crocs work? Then I could choose how long I want the cables to be.
    battery (resized).jpg

    #4 1 year ago
    Quoted from Wiggy:

    Would buying one of these and soldering on crocs work? Then I could choose how long I want the cables to be.

    You can extend the lead wires to any length you like. Just be sure the red stays on the positive terminal and the black on ground.

    -10
    #5 1 year ago

    I know that I am in the minority here but vram and remote holders are the most overrated mod around.

    Just put batteries in and replace them once a year. If you are in the hobby you'll be in your machines frequently enough.

    The batteries die and you lose your settings long before they start corroding.

    If you are paranoid buy lithium batteries. They don't leak.

    #6 1 year ago
    Quoted from Black_Knight:

    I know that I am in the minority here

    Yes I had six month old energizers and one battery started leaking badly. It was so fresh that it was a wet clear with almost no crystal growth yet. But regardless I would much rather have NV for piece of mind. Or as you mentioned the lithium AA should last what 30years??

    #7 1 year ago

    I truly appreciate all those that 'leave' the batteries inside the games these days...that really helps my business repairing the boards and damages to the game cabinet. Batteries not only leak acid everywhere, but also produce a gas that floats around inside the game, causing things to corrode. When the game is off for a long time, there is no air movement, and the gas just eats away at the metal. So, keep those batteries around, thanks! :0)

    #8 1 year ago

    So how many of those come from pinside collectors who 'think' it's a problem versus those we found in a basement or storage?

    I just don't see how this is an issue for people who pay any attention to their machines.

    Sounds like the gas issue would be there for remote holders too. Not sure why this doesn't impact other electronics that use batteries in enclosed sealed spaces.

    #9 1 year ago

    It does. Place your guns and ammo inside an electronic safe, let the batteries die, and see what it does to the guns and ammo, which is no where near the batteries. As long as you change the batteries routinely, things are Aok. However, you happen to get seriously ill, and possibly worse, batteries are forgotten about, and with the wife and kids, they don't know about things like that. I see it all the time.

    #10 1 year ago
    Quoted from Wiggy:

    WPC game. Been told its quite the hassle adding NVRAM to those.

    Yep...it's a little more involved since you need to socket the RAM position.
    Just do what has been suggested. Buy a battery pack, extend the wires, and attach them to the MPU board.
    Read here: http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Relocating_the_battery_from_the_MPU_board

    --
    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
    http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

    #11 1 year ago

    I should do this on my T2 before something bad happens... Are there any specific battery holders, or are they all pretty much the same? Then just solder the wires to some zip cord to make it longer and connect it to the board? The link to pinwiki says to solder the leads to the board -- can you just clip it instead or should it really be soldered?

    I should buy a DMM as well... Any recommendations there, or just whatever, they're all the same?

    I'm feeling brave after soldering for the first time a couple of weeks, but not necessarily to the electronic board itself....

    #12 1 year ago

    If really insist on using batteries and a remote battery pack, use Lithium batteries. They last for 5+ years and do not leak. Alkaline batteries, on the other hand are a BIG risk. New ones these days can leak in less than even in the first 30 days, 2 years before the expiration date even. I even seem pictures some people posted of name brand batteries leaking in packaging at stores. Point is there is too much risk with alkaline batteries because there are counterfeits and you just do not know when you will grab a package by chance.

    #13 1 year ago
    Quoted from Fezmid:

    I should do this on my T2 before something bad happens... Are there any specific battery holders, or are they all pretty much the same? Then just solder the wires to some zip cord to make it longer and connect it to the board? The link to pinwiki says to solder the leads to the board -- can you just clip it instead or should it really be soldered?
    I should buy a DMM as well... Any recommendations there, or just whatever, they're all the same?
    I'm feeling brave after soldering for the first time a couple of weeks, but not necessarily to the electronic board itself....

    Since you live in the states, and T2 does not have the midnight madness mode, I could install a NVRAM for you for $25 and it includes shipping the board back to you.

    #14 1 year ago

    My TFTC has the remote battery holder for AA batteries.

    Maybe I should get a NVRAM for peace of mind?

    #15 1 year ago
    Quoted from Black_Knight:

    The batteries die and you lose your settings long before they start corroding.

    Not always true. I have 2 friend of mine had Duracell batteries in their CV that leaked and still held settings fine and still were within the expiration date at least by a month or more. I had to do some fairly decent battery corrosion repair to these MPU boards.

    #16 1 year ago
    Quoted from TheHueManatee:

    My TFTC has the remote battery holder for AA batteries.
    Maybe I should get a NVRAM for peace of mind?

    Yes! All Data East, Sega, and early Stern boards (pre-Sam) have the old RAM in an IC socket and all you have to do is pop out the old one and install the new NVRAM. No soldering required on these games.

    #17 1 year ago
    Quoted from Black_Knight:

    I know that I am in the minority here but vram and remote holders are the most overrated mod around.
    Just put batteries in and replace them once a year. If you are in the hobby you'll be in your machines frequently enough.
    The batteries die and you lose your settings long before they start corroding.
    If you are paranoid buy lithium batteries. They don't leak.

    I disagree. Yanking the board and doing NVRAM on it is by far the best solution in my opinion. You have a chance to examine all the headers, you can spot any corrosion that someone who was not as diligent as you just replaced that batteries and ignored the real damage. And you don’t ever need to worry about batteries again. I think it’s the best solution helping the game last into the future. I consider myself the steward of my games. I want them to last for 100 years, and that small work now means the next owner, and the one after that will never face a corroded CPU from not changing those batteries.

    #18 1 year ago
    Quoted from GLSP3022:

    You can extend the lead wires to any length you like. Just be sure the red stays on the positive terminal and the black on ground.

    Can I cut one of these, solder them to the cables on the extern battery holder, and connect them to the battery holder on the pcb?
    Or am I missing something?

    aligator (resized).jpg

    #19 1 year ago

    Good topic with some good info for a fellow newish owner. Thanks.

    #20 1 year ago
    Quoted from TheHueManatee:

    My TFTC has the remote battery holder for AA batteries.
    Maybe I should get a NVRAM for peace of mind?

    Absolutely yes. TFTC doesn't have a clock and the NVRAM is socketed so it takes about 10 minutes for you to replace it yourself. Several folks on here sell the appropriate NVRAM for TFTC and it is plug and play.

    http://lockwhenlit.com/anyPinlist.htm

    Gord

    #21 1 year ago
    Quoted from Black_Knight:

    So how many of those come from pinside collectors who 'think' it's a problem versus those we found in a basement or storage?
    I just don't see how this is an issue for people who pay any attention to their machines.
    Sounds like the gas issue would be there for remote holders too. Not sure why this doesn't impact other electronics that use batteries in enclosed sealed spaces.

    My buddy Keith died a few years ago. His wife gifted me his Space Station a year and a half later. By that point the battery holder had nearly rotted off the board. It is now replaced with a super cap by Chris Hibler.

    #22 1 year ago

    Sorry about your friend. But those batteries could have been in there for years.

    If you don't maintain your machines regularly this can certainly happen.

    Maybe I'm assuming too much that the folks in pinside maintain their machines regularly. I open a clean them all a couple of times a year.

    I do have vram installed on several system 7 boards that I sent out for repair. I just don't feel the need to spend time and money on this by itself.

    #23 1 year ago

    I take a middle ground approach to this. First I don’t use AA batteries anymore. They are just an accident ready to happen. As others have said, from the second they are made, they are deteriorating. They are eating away at the metal case in which surrounds him.

    But I don’t like nvRams on WPC games either. If you have a midnight madness mode that doesn’t work with them. It’s also pretty invasive to install them since the ram is not socketed.

    My middle ground is to use a coin battery, a CR 2032. It is very inexpensive and noninvasive to install. It keeps the time so your midnight madness mods don’t get all screwed up. it doesn’t last as long as AAs, on average two to three years, but they don’t leak. At least I have yet to see one leak, and I have installed hundreds of them (though I guess any battery can leak, but it’s so small, there’s limit stuff to leak). to me It’s the best of all worlds.

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    #24 1 year ago
    Quoted from cfh:

    but they don’t leak. At least I have yet to see one leak, and I have installed hundreds of them (though I guess any battery can leak, but it’s so small, there’s limit stuff to leak).

    I have seen coin batteries leak and it was very corrosive. They're not immune to it.

    #25 1 year ago
    Quoted from Black_Knight:

    Just put batteries in and replace them once a year. If you are in the hobby you'll be in your machines frequently enough.
    The batteries die and you lose your settings long before they start corroding.

    Tell that to my TZ board! I install brand new Costco-brand batteries every Christmas, but 6 Months later and they already leaked all over the battery holder. From now on I'm going NVRAM or Lithium in everything. Now it's going to cost more to fix the board than years of batteries ever would have...

    #26 1 year ago

    So lithium AA batteries won't leak?

    If that's accurate.....I'll replace the AA alkalines with lithium until I get my NVRAM ordered and installed.

    Thanks for the tips guys. This is why I love pinside

    #27 1 year ago

    The pinball life remote holder is pretty nifty for those without the skills or time.

    #28 1 year ago

    i've probably installed 300 to 500 coin battery holders on WPC machines over the years. i'm sure any battery can leak, just i haven't experienced it with the cr2032.

    with lithium batteries, what they don't like is being charged. If the blocking diode on the wpc cpu board shorts (rare, but anything can happen), it will cause the coin battery to leak. I think that's the issue. but it's only blocking 5 volts, so it's pretty darn rare to have that diode short. I've never seen it happen on a WPC cpu board, but again, anything is possible.

    i'm just looking to reduce risk. i've also installed 100s of remote AA battery holders too (probably close to a 1000.) They do work well. just i don't like stuff hanging off my CPU boards, so i've switched to cr2032 coin battery holders. it's just cleaner, and frankly, it's less expensive too. at the Ann Arbor pinball museum we have nearly every system11 and wpc game title made. so battery costs are an issue, and i've found the cr2032 solution to be an excellent choice.

    #29 1 year ago

    Just found this on energizer's website.....talks about replacing items ruined by leaking batteries

    http://www.energizer.ca/about-batteries/battery-leakage

    #30 1 year ago

    Are their any instructions on installing a cr2032 correctly?

    #31 1 year ago

    There’s not a lot to it. See the picture above.

    Remove the old battery holder. I just cut it out with wire cutters. Then Desolder the upper right two battery holder holes using your favorite method. the CR 2032 battery holder fits nicely in those two holes with the positive lead towards the right. Add a jumper wire to the two bottom upside battery holder holes.

    That process takes me about two minutes

    #32 1 year ago

    I think using lithium AA batteries is a nice intermediate step. I have seen them leak but again it’s not as invasive as alkaline batteries. The only thing I don’t like about AA lithium batteries is their sheer size. There’s just a lot more juice in them then say a coin battery, which is much smaller and just has less stuff in it, and hence less potential to cause issues.

    #33 1 year ago
    Quoted from TheHueManatee:

    Just found this on energizer's website.....talks about replacing items ruined by leaking batteries
    http://www.energizer.ca/about-batteries/battery-leakage

    From the above link:
    "Energizer® Ultimate Lithium™ Batteries are GUARANTEED NOT TO LEAK. Due to advanced technology, Ultimate lithium™ batteries will not leak under normal consumer usage."

    #34 1 year ago

    I use AA Lithium Energizers pretty much exclusively in all my games. I do have a few early SS games with 1.5F caps and they're doing fine as long as I turn them on once a month. I've had zero issues with the AA lithium battery so far. But then again, I've had no issues with the standard alkaline batteries either as they were replaced every two years. I bought the lithium AA in bulk for about $1.50 a battery, so $4.50 per game. Just easier to replace IMHO.

    #35 1 year ago

    Unless i did the math wrong based on a post Ingo made, a cr2032 would only last about 300-500 days on a WPC CPU. An eBay China special CR2032 usually only has 50% capacity too. The RTC inside the ASIC is a power hog.

    Another concern.... does the RTC keep proper time at 3.3v or do you need to change the resistor? The circuit was intended to be on 4.5v.

    I might be bias but... NVRAM! =D

    pasted_image (resized).png

    #36 1 year ago
    Quoted from RonaldRayGun:

    From the above link:
    "Energizer® Ultimate Lithium™ Batteries are GUARANTEED NOT TO LEAK. Due to advanced technology, Ultimate lithium™ batteries will not leak under normal consumer usage."

    I found that part very interesting. Good for pinsiders to know if they have any issues down the road.

    #37 1 year ago

    I have CR 2032‘s on my system 11 and WPC games. Find them to last 2 to 3 years. I’ve also been installing them on customers games for the last couple years. Again the same results. Haven’t noticed any issue with the time clock aside from what I saw with AA batteries. Actually on system 11 games probably get two to five years with them

    #38 1 year ago

    FWIW, I have remotes on all my pins-17 at the moment, and change them religiously every 1st week of the new year. The remotes are all located right by the plumb-bob tilt so they're easy to get to. To date, no leakage, but just to ensure that it never happens, I'm swapping all batteries out this year to lithium. You can get multi-packs of these online cheap. I know that lithiums would last much longer than a year but I'll still swap out after 1 year and just use them up in some other non-essential device...

    #39 1 year ago

    I use memory capacitors on my games. Only $6, reliable, and never leak and never replace. All you have to do is turn them on and play them once in a while. Some of my games don't get played for a month and still retain the settings.

    #40 1 year ago

    Norm, do you wear suspenders with your belt on your drawstring pants?

    #41 1 year ago

    Amazon has a decent price on the Energizer Lithium AA

    IMG_6802 (resized).PNG

    #42 1 year ago
    Quoted from wayout440:

    I use memory capacitors on my games. Only $6, reliable, and never leak and never replace. All you have to do is turn them on and play them once in a while. Some of my games don't get played for a month and still retain the settings.

    Memory caps work well if you have good/recent RAM. like on older games with 5101 ram (bally -17 and -35/gtb sys80/wms sys3-7), you need the 'new' phillips 5101 for this to really work. For example if you have an AMI 5101, a memory cap just won't work past about 2 days.

    #43 1 year ago
    Quoted from cfh:

    Memory caps work well if you have good/recent RAM. like on older games with 5101 ram (bally -17 and -35/gtb sys80/wms sys3-7), you need the 'new' phillips 5101 for this to really work. For example if you have an AMI 5101, a memory cap just won't work past about 2 days.

    Right, I believe that is mostly WPC games with real time clock...but I don't have any of those games. The last game I bought was a DE Secret Service and that is working great (Uses a 2064C for RAM)

    #44 1 year ago
    Quoted from cfh:

    Memory caps work well if you have good/recent RAM. like on older games with 5101 ram (bally -17 and -35/gtb sys80/wms sys3-7), you need the 'new' phillips 5101 for this to really work. For example if you have an AMI 5101, a memory cap just won't work past about 2 days.

    WMS for about 1-2 years times stuffed SHIT quality 5101s into their MPUs. They are marked low power, but consume current like a 2101. System 7 era I believe it was. The PCD5101P data sheets indicates it consumes a crazy low amount of current and will hold the contents down to Vcc = 1v.

    $6 mem cap vs $10 nvram. Still a no brainer value wise to me (again, im sure im bias =P). SUPERCAPs do fail too overtime. Gamatron daughter boards used a 1F super cap. It held a charge for only about two hours, granted it was 20 years old.

    Supercap life expectancy...

    "The real application lifetime of supercapacitors, also called "service life", "life expectancy" or "load life", can reach 10 to 15 years or more at room temperature. Such long periods cannot be tested by manufacturers. Hence, they specify the expected capacitor lifetime at the maximum temperature and voltage conditions. The results are specified in datasheets using the notation "tested time (hours)/max. temperature (°C)", such as "5000 h/65 °C". With this value and expressions derived from historical data, lifetimes can be estimated for lower temperature conditions."

    pasted_image (resized).png

    FM16W08 endurance at constant R/W at 1 mhz is like 180 years.

    #45 1 year ago

    When changing AAs from the battery holder...

    You need to turn your machine on first and then change the batteries correct?

    I just purchased lithiums and kept the receipt along with a screen grab of their website guaranteeing no leaking.

    IMG_20171101_1002198.jpg

    Screenshot_20171101-100814.png

    #46 1 year ago
    Quoted from TheHueManatee:

    When changing AAs from the battery holder...
    You need to turn your machine on first and then change the batteries correct?

    Correct. If you change batteries with the game off, you'll lose all high scores and settings.

    #47 1 year ago
    Quoted from schudel5:

    Correct. If you change batteries with the game off, you'll lose all high scores and settings.

    Thought so....just wanted to confirm. Thanks

    2 weeks later
    #48 1 year ago
    Quoted from schudel5:

    Correct. If you change batteries with the game off, you'll lose all high scores and settings.

    Dammit, wish I knew that but it makes sense when you think about it. Just lost my 7B high score on Jackbot when changing the batteries

    #49 1 year ago

    I agree with NVram,but in case you want to stick with batteries, since you're soldering anyway, extend the wires and battery holder to where you can access it though the coin door instead of removing the back glass. Add enough wire to pull the battery holder outside of the machine so you can see what you're doing.

    Make sure you have a way to remove the mother board without removing the battery pack. I use male and female connectors near the MPU to remove it without pulling the battery pack out

    #50 1 year ago

    What am I missing in this thread?

    I use a remote battery pack for less than a buck, long leads soldered to, and run far away from the board. Dozens and dozens later, no issues. Just change your batteries every other year or so. Simple.

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