(Topic ID: 67750)

Remake MM vs. Original MM (real vs. perceived value)


By iamabearsfan

6 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 52 posts
  • 30 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by o-din
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

You

Linked Games

There are 52 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
-3
#1 6 years ago

I did some very quick surfing on the Dodge Challenger that recently had a remake hit the market...

ebay.com link » Dodge Challenger Nice Rare Sassy Grass Ta Original Paint Survivor S Match 4spd Owner History

http://www.dodge.com/en/2013/challenger/?sid=1037056&KWNM=dodge+challenger&KWID=3520431975&TR=1&channel=paidsearch

New Dodge Challenger..26K, 1970 Challenger, 80K.

Now before you bite my head off for not comparing apples to apples, I am just trying to make a point that originals can and do hold their value. Heck, one could argue the Challenger remake is more reliable and safer to drive. But why is the '70 Challenger is fetching more $? It is because it is rare. My head does a 180 every time I pass a Challenger. But when I realize it is a recent remake, I just go back to what I was doing. It is cool to own/have an original of anything.

Maybe there may be a slight hit on original values, but I don't see the market falling thru the floor for original MM's.

So let's focus on the good news!

I am very excited for peeps to be able to get an awesome machine to play.

I am also very excited to see/hear that other remakes may be coming. But I am also looking forward to my Woz coming soon as well as any other new machines that hit the market. It is an awesome hobby we are all in.

Disclosure: I own a MM that I rebuilt from the ground up. Frankly I don't care about its value. We never plan to sell it. My biggest problem is worrying about my two boys fighting over it when I kick the bucket! My hope is that it will never leave the family. Therefore I don't care if it is worth $1 or 100K.

-2
#2 6 years ago

Sorry folks. Didn't know you couldn't put an Ebay link into Pinside.

The Ebay 1970 Challenger was selling for 80K. I think you guys can still get the point I was trying to make.

Here was some info from the Ebay ad...

1970 Dodge Challenger
rare sassy grass, TA, original paint, survivor, #'s match, 4spd, owner history
survivor, #'s match, original paint 340 6 pack, 4spd

Price: US $79,777.00

#3 6 years ago

With automobiles, it's ALL about originality. With pinballs a HEP machine with a new play field, art, even cab can increase the value of the game by 3x.

Sorry man, your post is meaningless.

Quoted from iamabearsfan:

I am just trying to make a point that originals can and do hold their value

#4 6 years ago

Ya MM is really great news,can not wait for it to get home and stay there forever...i love the Goblins and saving the Princess

#5 6 years ago

There has to be enough buyers for the original to sustain the pricing. There will always be a handful of people wanting mint originals, but for the most part most people who want an MM will take an MMR.

#6 6 years ago

That ebay auction has zero bids at that price. I can put anything on Ebay and list it at 80k, its a matter of if people will buy it. I understand that the original is worth substantially more than the remake, but in this case, maybe not 80k.

#7 6 years ago

We all have a choice now. You can buy a brand new one to play for $7995 or a HUO version of the Remake for less as the years go by. If you MUST have an original, you can buy one too...for more, if you feel like it I guess.

WIN WIN!

#8 6 years ago

i had a 1971 Challenger it was nothing compared to my 2010 Challenger with all the cool features,Hot seats
Big heavy radio with Boston Accoustic speakers and Radio with 30 gig of storage,the body curves of the 2010 is insane!!

And i hope to love my new MM just as well!

#9 6 years ago

Lol, and yet most are 15-40k
There is an MM for sale on Ebay for 24k. Does not mean it will sell. The CQ version will have a market but for most..

15,999

(CC-459507) 1969 Dodge Charger

Listed by Classic Car Guy

Car runs. 440 engine. Excellent frame rails, but quarters and trunk bottom have rust issues.... (Read more)

4 Photos

Add to My Garage

1969 Dodge Charger

$39,999

(CC-459503) 1969 Dodge Charger

Listed by Classic Car Guy

All correct RT SE, Hemi orange car, # Matching, BUILD SHEET. CALIFORNIA CAR!!!!!!!!!! This RT has only one repaint and is a super super soli... (Read more)

12 Photos

Add to My Garage

1969 Dodge Charger

$39,999

DEALER-SHOWCASE

(CC-453593) 1969 Dodge Charger

Listed by Classic Car Guy

General Lee A very nice tribute car to the Series/Movie the DUKES OF HAZZARD. Fresh Restoration with just a few test miles. New drive train ... (Read more)

#10 6 years ago

My best friend growing up had a '70 Challenger. Great car. He had a 340 that he tricked out. So he takes it up to Union Grove and blows the engine after only two weeks of putting it in!

I have to agree that I don't think I could drive one of those cars now that we are spoiled with today's car features. Hand crank windows and antennas that get broken off in car washes!

You can't even get excited about the regular gas they can take since you can't find it anymore!

#11 6 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

There has to be enough buyers for the original to sustain the pricing. There will always be a handful of people wanting mint originals, but for the most part most people who want an MM will take an MMR.

I'm one of the handful as I will always pick original over remake (personal preference). Luckily I bought my MM 10 years ago for half of the MMRs. I do hope the MMR are nice and play exactly the same. For me, this means lots of spare pf parts (castle gate, drawbridge hinges, lock door and hinges, troll carriages, etc.).

#12 6 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

We all have a choice now. You can buy a brand new one to play for $7995 or a HUO version of the Remake for less as the years go by. If you MUST have an original, you can buy one too...for more, if you feel like it I guess.
WIN WIN!

Sounds like your pro-choice

#14 6 years ago

Op, you're original argument does not make sense to me. If Dodge announced tomorrow that they were going to release a 1970 Charger remake that will look just like the original 1970 version but with all new parts and some slight technological advances. Then we have an apples to apples comparison. And I believe if they did such a thing the value of the 1970 model would be affected negatively.

Now, if PPS had announced they were instead making a Medieval Madness Pinball 2000 game rather than an almost exact copy. Then your original post would apply.

#15 6 years ago

I'll give you this. That always has been my Challenger of choice.

#16 6 years ago

So Dodge can't make an exact remake even if they wanted to. Safety & emissions being the first reasons why they couldn't. Yet it was one of their big sellers last year. I get the fact it isn't apples to apples. I was trying to say that even when close remakes enter the market, there is still a distinct part of the market that will crave the originals. But in Dodges case, they still sold a lot of the remakes. Even though they were not exact copies. They sold em to middle age men like ourselves that loved the cars back then and wanted one now.

Guys, I really am not trying to cause a stir here. This is just an observation at best. I am just have read a number of crazy threads about people leaving the hobby and others worried about the value of their collections going down the tubes. I simply don't think this is dooms day for JJP, Stern, or pinball in general because remakes are hitting the market. I think it is great for the market and especially for those that were looking for that specific title over the last decade. And if the value of the original MM's goes down some, so be it. Again, better for all that more people can play one of the best machines designed.

Ironically I invited a friend of mine that likes pinball to the show and next thing you know he buys a MMR. That is what I think is awesome.

Peace all!

#17 6 years ago

Well yah. Out of all the people who buy cars in 2013, do you believe most of them are also considering a car from the 70's? Obviously not.

Out of all the people buying pinball machines in 2013, do you belive most of them are also considering a pin from the late 90's? They are for good reason.

You're not causing a stir, you are making no sense.

Quoted from iamabearsfan:

there is still a distinct part of the market that will crave the originals. But in Dodges case, they still sold a lot of the remakes.

#18 6 years ago

I'm in for Pinball Fun only!!! Value,Market...D'ont really care!

#19 6 years ago

This will be a market correction, plain and simple. The nostalgic value of MM isn't wide spread enough to justify the price gap with MMR.

#20 6 years ago
Quoted from iamabearsfan:

I did some very quick surfing on the Dodge Challenger that recently had a remake hit the market...
Ebay link
http://www.dodge.com/en/2013/challenger/?sid=1037056&KWNM=dodge+challenger&KWID=3520431975&TR=1&channel=paidsearch
New Dodge Challenger..26K, 1970 Challenger, 80K.
Now before you bite my head off for not comparing apples to apples, I am just trying to make a point that originals can and do hold their value. Heck, one could argue the Challenger remake is more reliable and safer to drive. But why is the '70 Challenger is fetching more $? It is because it is rare. My head does a 180 every time I pass a Challenger. But when I realize it is a recent remake, I just go back to what I was doing. It is cool to own/have an original of anything.
Maybe there may be a slight hit on original values, but I don't see the market falling thru the floor for original MM's.
So let's focus on the good news!
I am very excited for peeps to be able to get an awesome machine to play.
I am also very excited to see/hear that other remakes may be coming. But I am also looking forward to my Woz coming soon as well as any other new machines that hit the market. It is an awesome hobby we are all in.
Disclosure: I own a MM that I rebuilt from the ground up. Frankly I don't care about its value. We never plan to sell it. My biggest problem is worrying about my two boys fighting over it when I kick the bucket! My hope is that it will never leave the family. Therefore I don't care if it is worth $1 or 100K.

Buy an MMr and each boy can have one. They will be worth roughly the same, regardless.

-4
#21 6 years ago

The original will be worth more...how can a knockoff, that doesn't even have the original manufactures logo, uses LED's, and a chinese made surface mount PCB be more desireable?

#22 6 years ago

When MM14 is released and you go to sell your game, I'm sure you'll be asking yourself the same question. With this, I hope you are one of the suckers who are into their game for $13K because you obviously couldn't afford it.

Quoted from tec9:

The original will be worth more...how can a knockoff, that doesn't even have the original manufactures logo, uses LED's, and a chinese made surface mount PCB be more desireable?

#23 6 years ago

$7000 price tag is still a shit load to pay for a pin.... Can I get a pro without the trolls for $4500? I might be in at 7k for a BBB but still can't justify over 5k especially since I will not be putting on location to make some back...

Will prices adjust down the line? Maybe 10% drop on all titles?

And yes once 4000 new MM come outit will lower MM value... Basic economics guys....

#24 6 years ago

All pins need replacement parts eventually, so how many original MMs are really full stock? Not only that but most had burnt pin connectors. I have a TOTAN that I've tricked out in very possible way cosmetically, but sometimes the boards, connectors, and other things are problematic. I would much rather have a remade TOTAN than the one I have. I don't collect baseball cards, I play pinball.

#25 6 years ago

I'm thinking the new one may end up being better than the original.

#26 6 years ago

Shhhhhh....shhhhhhh

#27 6 years ago
Quoted from tec9:

The original will be worth more...how can a knockoff, that doesn't even have the original manufactures logo, uses LED's, and a chinese made surface mount PCB be more desireable?

Lol, seriously?? Buy a 20 year old version or a new version. Game play the same. You have no chance of selling me the old one unless its stupid cheaper.

#28 6 years ago

I would take a MMR (nib) over a true HUO MM (16 year old pin ) any day of the week. Now if you throw in a HEP CQ pin this is a different story and im sure it would go for a bit more then a NIB MMR. But for me...MMR all day long! I would not pay the extra $$ for a HEP CQ MM.

-3
#29 6 years ago
Quoted from jalpert:

When MM14 is released and you go to sell your game, I'm sure you'll be asking yourself the same question. With this, I hope you are one of the suckers who are into their game for $13K because you obviously couldn't afford it.

Nope....I got my MM for MUCH cheaper than the REPRO's. So I'm ahead of the game no matter what...I'm laughing at you guys thinking you are getting a better machine.

#30 6 years ago

...keep laughing...

#31 6 years ago

I case you guys didn't see this posted on the one of the other MMr threads

Here is a post from a fellow member who had test played the machine and his words describing it:

(member: Pinballphil)

"OK, First I'm a little reluctant to even post since I'm selling these quickly without even advertising. I have been in the Home Arcade business full-time since 1978 and have never seen such a buzz about a new release before. I've been dealing with Chicago Gaming for 20 years. I was involved since the beginning of this project as well as their successful Arcade Legends game. My main business is home service calls and I am very busy in the Chicagoland area. I only say that because I am not a regular pinsider and don't really have time to get involved. I can offer periodical updates. I personally know the owner of the factory producing this game and I can say that they are a very reputable company that has been in business for over 100 years. They build many cabinets for many coin-op brands. I've even seen an antique trade stimulator that had their name stamped on the cabinet inside.

Now for the best news!! I just played the prototype yesterday. It is awesome! It plays just like the original with their new electronics. It's still early in the stages but it is a phenomenal copy of the original. It is running with Williams software and their own new electronics. I will say from a technician's view, the new system is incredible. It will make service so easy. Connectors for switches, no lamp or switch matrix, interchangeable processor/driver boards, a reliable cpu, a lot less wires. Did I say a lot less wires, I mean like hardly any! As for reliability, these surface mount LED's and components have improved so dramatically with cell phones that there is no reason to ever consider building a pinball the old way. Let me ask, who's worried about the bouncing of their cell phone in their pocket? I really think the vibration issue isn't an issue at all. As for the LED's, they look great! Their light fill the lenses completely, with a perfect hue and no strobing at all. The cabinet looks better than any repro I've seen. I'm not just saying that, I'd stake my 35 years in the industry on it."

#32 6 years ago

The first revue sounds promising, and he is offering an extended warrantee. That says a lot.

#33 6 years ago
Quoted from tec9:

Nope....I got my MM for MUCH cheaper than the REPRO's. So I'm ahead of the game no matter what...I'm laughing at you guys thinking you are getting a better machine.

Good for you...but why laugh at those of us who will most likely have never gotten a cheaper MM unless this remake happened? I got my MB for $4k - but if PPS remakes it I'm not gonna laugh at anyone who's excited to get a new one.

#34 6 years ago

Let's be realistic. What's the value of an original perfect condition backglass for Captain Fantastic? $300?

OK now how much for a flawless repro?...hmmm about $300. Apple.. meet Apple.

#35 6 years ago

I am a big MM fan but, in my opinion, nice originals are just mainly repros anyways (new repro decals, new repro playfield, some repro playfield parts, repro boards, etc).

So what do I care if it is a repro MMR or original MM? I want a quality machine at a fair price (and 15k is not a fair price for a reapiared 20 year old "original" MM). If the repro "feels" like a Bally/Williams WPC game from the 90s when you are standing behind it it's all good to me. They are really well built, solid machines and (hopefully) this one will be too.

If it "feels" like a DE/Sega game from the same time period (and sounds like one with the strobe clicking and all) I wouldn't really want it. They are kind of a junky build.

Just my 2 cents and the reason I'll to buy it until I actually see it, maybe I'll even be a ble to pick up a used MMR for under 5k at some point. That would be pretty sweet...

#36 6 years ago
Quoted from John_in_NC:

Let's be realistic. What's the value of an original perfect condition backglass for Captain Fantastic? $300?
OK now how much for a flawless repro?...hmmm about $300. Apple.. meet Apple.

Thats not apple meet apple.....you might have to make the following adjustments to your comparison:

The repro backglass does not have the manufactures name or logo
The repro backglass does not look like the original when illuminated (LED's vs. bulbs)
The repro backglass was made by someone who has never built one before....
Now that's a bit more accurate...

#37 6 years ago
Quoted from tec9:

Thats not apple meet apple.....you might have to make the following adjustments to your comparison:
The repro backglass does not have the manufactures name or logo
The repro backglass does not look like the original when illuminated (LED's vs. bulbs)
The repro backglass was made by someone who has never built one before....
Now that's a bit more accurate...

your first two points have zero impact on the game (heck the second one arguably improves it). the third point is wrong. The new machines are being made in the same factory as the original, by a company that's been doing this for 100 years. Chicago Coin made the original playfields and currently makes Stern playfields too. They're not an unknown upstart.

#38 6 years ago

I'll start a poll, (like we need another MMR post)
Q: You have a choice between an original MM - nice but not perfect (as most are) for 8K or a NIB MMR. Which do you choose? My bet is you'll get a pretty even split on the vote.

Q: how do you start a poll?

#39 6 years ago

On average, the condition of your MM just plummeted and so did it's value. In this case, with you, that makes me really happy

OMFG, it's so hard to get a new nex-gen translite.

Quoted from tec9:

Thats not apple meet apple.....you might have to make the following adjustments to your comparison:

The repro backglass does not have the manufactures name or logo
The repro backglass does not look like the original when illuminated (LED's vs. bulbs)
The repro backglass was made by someone who has never built one before....
Now that's a bit more accurate...

#40 6 years ago
Quoted from pezpunk:

your first two points have zero impact on the game (heck the second one arguably improves it). the third point is wrong. The new machines are being made in the same factory as the original, by a company that's been doing this for 100 years. Chicago Coin made the original playfields and currently makes Stern playfields too. They're not an unknown upstart.

They made the wood parts, they didn't make the games. Unless Williams is stopping slot production MMR is not being made in the same factory.

#41 6 years ago

I might be making this up, but I believe what he was saying is that Chicago Gaming took the building over from Williams when they shut down pinball production. So, same factory, same building, but different company.

Quoted from calvin12:

They made the wood parts, they didn't make the games. Unless Williams is stopping slot production MMR is not being made in the same factory.

#42 6 years ago
Quoted from tec9:

Thats not apple meet apple.....you might have to make the following adjustments to your comparison:
The repro backglass does not have the manufactures name or logo
The repro backglass does not look like the original when illuminated (LED's vs. bulbs)
The repro backglass was made by someone who has never built one before....
Now that's a bit more accurate...

Check the poll, how do you like them apples?
http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/nib-mmr-vs-average-original-mm

#43 6 years ago

That's not a poll. Its the new market : o

#44 6 years ago

On classic cars numbers need to match I'll bet the one your talking about doesn't have a 318 out of a dart. A lot of the original mm were built out of everything. Some custom cars bring a ton of money if they were built right. So maybe you should ask if I sent a mmle to hep to work his magic on how would it compare to a beat up original he has gone through.

#45 6 years ago
Quoted from tec9:

The original will be worth more...how can a knockoff, that doesn't even have the original manufactures logo, uses LED's, and a chinese made surface mount PCB be more desireable?

Because it's a pinball machine and is basically technology based. Who wants an Atari 2600 over a Xbox One? Perhaps on American Pickers in the year 3035 original MM's might be worth more than the remakes but for the next several years they will not be worth anymore than the re-makes. I'm an original MM owner who "was" in the market for a CC but there is no way I am buying a CC for more than $10k at this point given the real possibility of a CCr; and at $10k that CC needs to be CQ.

#46 6 years ago

Buy a restored original MM that as a new playfield new decal new plastic new coin door new translite new trims... that is king of like a Remake! No?

#47 6 years ago
Quoted from thunderking50:

Buy a restored original MM that as a new playfield new decal new plastic new coin door new translite new trims... that is king of like a Remake! No?

No, IMHO. The restored machine still has the original design of board sets, wiring, factory logo, insert and translite lighting setup..etc. it's restored to the true original format.

Hate to use classic sport car (apple vs orange)analogy, but a "nicely" restored collectible ____ (fill in the blank sport car) will always bring in more $$$ than a unrestored rust bucket, or a kit/repro/remake/ wannabe example. It will be Only less than a pristine, all original, super low mileage, garage queen. Even then, the garage queen will still need to change it's hoses, belts, battery, gasket, oil/filter, brakes, tires...etc before being drivable. So there will never be a "true original"(by definition) specimen.

For a player point of view, the new MMr is more than acceptable. For both collecting AND playing purposes, original Williams MM still wins. It only matters with the end user's personal intent/preference.

#48 6 years ago
Quoted from tec9:

The original will be worth more...how can a knockoff, that doesn't even have the original manufactures logo, uses LED's, and a chinese made surface mount PCB be more desireable?

Because its brand new and thousands of dollars cheaper than the 17 year old routed games people have been forced to buy if they had to have MM. Duh.

#49 6 years ago
Quoted from John_in_NC:

OK now how much for a flawless repro?...hmmm about $300. Apple.. meet Apple.

or...

Original BBB versus the remake the original BBB was worth more.
Original NOS MM playfields versus NIB remade playfields the NOS is worth more. (Not a blown out used MM- condition is equal)

Lets just keep it real. When these come out the market will decide how much they are worth. Right now everything is just speculation. My guess, a NIB MMR will be more sought after than a used MM. People will want to play/own a better condition pin.

In 20 years from now, with all things being equal with condition and wear, the original will probably be worth more than the remake. (Again, if condition is equal)

#50 6 years ago
Quoted from jimjim66:

or...
Original BBB versus the remake the original BBB was worth more.
Original NOS MM playfields versus NIB remade playfields the NOS is worth more. (Not a blown out used MM- condition is equal)
Lets just keep it real. When these come out the market will decide how much they are worth. Right now everything is just speculation. My guess, a NIB MMR will be more sought after than a used MM. People will want to play/own a better condition pin.
In 20 years from now, with all things being equal with condition and wear, the original will probably be worth more than the remake. (Again, if condition is equal)

Not exactly equal, though .. Original BBB had a lot less than remake BBB .. There are still, as of now, less MMR's than MM's. Original NOS playfields work better than remade playfields, and are (usually) easier to swap as the alignments on remakes seemingly always have some problems. Not to mention that there's no reason to think more remakes won't happen every couple of years as well.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 14.00
Electronics
Yorktown Parts and Equip
$ 16.50
Lighting - Led
Lermods
From: $ 18.00
Apparel - Men
Pinside Shop
€ 8.10
Flipper Parts
Buthamburg
$ 10.00
Cabinet - Sound/Speakers
Gweem's Mods
From: $ 130.20
Cabinet - Sound/Speakers
PinWoofer
10,000 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Columbia, TN
$ 16.95
Playfield - Protection
ULEKstore
Wanted
Machine - Wanted
Baltimore, MD
10,000 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Arlington, TX
$ 14.99
Electronics
PinballElectronics.com
From: $ 9.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
$ 36.99
Lighting - Interactive
Lee's Parts
From: $ 16.95
From: $ 40.00
Cabinet - Other
Rock Custom Pinball
8,500 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Austin, TX
From: $ 22.00
From: $ 20.00
Cabinet - Other
Rock Custom Pinball
$ 259.95
Lighting - Led
Pin Stadium Pinball LEDs
$ 89.99
$ 11.95
$ 98.00
Playfield - Other
ModFather Pinball Mods
$ 999.00
Pinball Machine
Mircoplayfields
$ 49.95
Lighting - Led
Pin Stadium Pinball LEDs
Great pinball charity
Pinball Edu
There are 52 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside