(Topic ID: 191079)

Stern reliability: S.A.M. vs SPIKE

By halflip87

6 years ago


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  • 368 posts
  • 94 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by kvan99
  • Topic is favorited by 21 Pinsiders

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    Topic poll

    “Which system is more reliable and repair friendly?”

    • S.A.M. 176 votes
      90%
    • Spike 20 votes
      10%

    (196 votes)

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    There are 368 posts in this topic. You are on page 7 of 8.
    #301 6 years ago
    Quoted from gstellenberg:

    4 commercial pinball machine manufacturers are now using our technology; so it's probably worth discussing our implementation choices and the differences to other technologies.

    I think you tested your system to hell and back before releasing it to the public + listened to feedback from users. That was your mistake . Now you have people using your system and saying good things about its reliability.

    If you want big cash rewards, design something flaky ... judging by the response Stern is getting with their latest titles, you'll have people lining up to buy the games.

    #302 6 years ago
    Quoted from jar155:

    Maybe they had to remove the power line out of the main cabinet when they removed the interlock safety switch.
    Edit: Wait, no. They removed the interlock after they moved the power switch.

    Beat me to it... EXACTLY.

    #303 6 years ago
    Quoted from jar155:

    Maybe they had to remove the power line out of the main cabinet when they removed the interlock safety switch.

    The interlock switch just shut off the coil voltage, so the line voltage was still present in the cabinet. 70V DC is around the threshold where an interlock shutoff is required but I could never find a reliable source (U.L., etc.) for that requirement. At 48V it's not required.

    #304 6 years ago
    Quoted from docquest:

    So let me get this straight, you have a new great playing game that has no mechanical or cosmetic issues and its a favorite of you and your wife.
    You read a thread on pinside and then sell it immediately because you're worried you might have a replace a node board in the future?
    I just don't get it.

    It did have issues out of the box that were resolved. Yes its 100% perfect right now, but there is no point in waiting for the tsunami to hit if you know its coming right? There is no question nothing may ever happen to the node board or mpu but there is a lot of evidence pointing to eventual failure given enough play and time. To spend $300 on the board just puts you more in the hole when it is time to sell the game. If the problem becomes so bad that the market drops out on the game then you are left holding the bag.

    It is only a game after all - and if it turns out to be overblown - then I will get the game again down the road.

    At this point there are more than enough awesome games to get - no need to deal with a company who is clearly not putting the consumer first.

    #305 6 years ago

    I have started another thread specifically to see how reliable or unreliable node boards have been since they have been used. Feel free to post if you have had any issues with them. Or if you are satisfied with their service life so far.

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/node-board-failure-how-common

    #306 6 years ago
    Quoted from Lermods:

    I didn't follow this one either. Somehow JJP is able to keep the power switch up front. Are they not in conformity with fcc testing standards? Transformers have been in cabinets since the beginning of time with very little issue, who decided it's all of a sudden a safety issue?

    It happend when they took the transformer out of the bottom of the game.. Does JJP still have a transformer in the bottom of the game or any other 110v in the bottom of the game except the power switch? I think the issue was there was no other 110v in the cab execpt the switch

    JJ

    #307 6 years ago
    Quoted from Gexchange:

    It happend when they took the transformer out of the bottom of the game.. Does JJP still have a transformer in the bottom of the game or any other 110v in the bottom of the game except the power switch? I think the issue was there was no other 110v in the cab execpt the switch
    JJ

    They Include but don't even install the 110v for the Bill acceptor for this reason too.

    #308 6 years ago
    Quoted from Gexchange:

    It happend when they took the transformer out of the bottom of the game.. Does JJP still have a transformer in the bottom of the game or any other 110v in the bottom of the game except the power switch? I think the issue was there was no other 110v in the cab execpt the switch
    JJ

    Hobbit, WOZ and dialed in all have the transformer and service plug in the cabinet, I just check my games. It's not a safety or testing issue if JJP can do it and stern can't.

    #309 6 years ago
    Quoted from Lermods:

    Hobbit, WOZ and dialed in all have the transformer and service plug in the cabinet, I just check my games. It's not a safety or testing issue if JJP can do it and stern can't.

    I think you misunderstood what you quoted. JJ is saying the reason they had to move the switch out of the cab was because there was no transformer in the cab anymore, which is not the case for JJP. Only Stern and the standards guys know for sure if this was a requirement to move the switch or not, or if it was fully up to Stern.

    But the good news is, everyone here is an expert on UL and FCC certification for electronics and the specifics of Spike design, not to mention were involved in the certification process, so I feel pretty comfortable agreeing with the group think that it was moved only to save .75 of wiring and Stern are a bunch of dirty liars who take a perverse joy in making people reach for the switch in the head. I think they did it so the could stand behind people and ogle.

    #310 6 years ago
    Quoted from paul_8788:

    I think you misunderstood what you quoted. JJ is saying the reason they had to move the switch out of the cab was because there was no transformer in the cab anymore, which is not the case for JJP. Only Stern and the standards guys know for sure if this was a requirement to move the switch or not, or if it was fully up to Stern.
    But the good news is, everyone here is an expert on UL and FCC certification for electronics and the specifics of Spike design, not to mention were involved in the certification process, so I feel pretty comfortable agreeing with the group think that it was moved only to save .75 of wiring and Stern are a bunch of dirty liars who take a perverse joy in making people reach for the switch in the head. I think they did it so the could stand behind people and ogle.

    Rereading what JJ wrote a second time, I may have misunderstood what he was saying. I guess a question is why did stern move everything out of the cabinet? Perhaps cost savings, streamlining, simplicity, all of the above. regardless, I don't think having that switch in the head is what most people want, I don't.

    I'm not trying to get on sterns case, I love their games, including my Sw pro. I'm just not a fan of the spike system for all the reasons mentioned and it's hard to understand their motivations sometime. Replacing a node board compared to a fuse or transistor is not ideal from a time or money perspective.

    #311 6 years ago
    Quoted from Lermods:

    I'm not trying to get on sterns case, I love their games, including my Sw pro. I'm just not a fan of the spike system for all the reasons mentioned and it's hard to understand their motivations sometime. Replacing a node board compared to a fuse or transistor is not ideal from a time or money perspective.

    Some node boards (possibly all coil driver ones, didn't look too closely) on my GB do have fuses and transistors, so I don't think it is reasonable to assume that all node board issues are going to require a full node board replacement. However I do agree that prices on node boards and the cpu board are higher than I would like in case you do need a replacement. In a perfect world Stern would sell them for just above cost, or offer a low cost exchange program for first two years or something like that until Spike issues are ironed out and the community gets more comfortable.

    Not sure if Stern has or is planning to release full schematics for all the boards. It would also be nice to have a definitive list of spike boards, part numbers with game compatibility. There has been discussion that node boards aren't compatible from one game to another, but maybe it is a case of boards not being upwards compatible, but new revisions would be backwards? I dunno, but I think in this case with this new architecture and the lack of published information is making things worse. Hopefully this will improve in the future. I do know that I miss the big schematic pages in the manual. Had no idea what they meant, but having them around was comforting

    #312 6 years ago

    Are these the same crappy boards that come in all household appliances now such as dishwashers, washers, dryers, refrigerators? They don't last more than 3!years and if you call someone to have them fixed it is 5 to 7 hundred dollars. You can buy them off eBay and fix it yourself for 50. I have started buying a home insurance policy that covers all this garbage appliances. Too bad you can't buy Stern boards off eBay.

    #313 6 years ago
    Quoted from paul_8788:

    I think you misunderstood what you quoted. JJ is saying the reason they had to move the switch out of the cab was because there was no transformer in the cab anymore, which is not the case for JJP. Only Stern and the standards guys know for sure if this was a requirement to move the switch or not, or if it was fully up to Stern.
    But the good news is, everyone here is an expert on UL and FCC certification for electronics and the specifics of Spike design, not to mention were involved in the certification process, so I feel pretty comfortable agreeing with the group think that it was moved only to save .75 of wiring and Stern are a bunch of dirty liars who take a perverse joy in making people reach for the switch in the head. I think they did it so the could stand behind people and ogle.

    I am only relaying what I was told by Gary Stern right after the change when I told him I didn't like the change, and now Gomez confirms it? Why does it have to be a conspiracy? Do you really think Stern WANTED to move the switch and re invent that whole thing? All 110v is in the head so does it supprize you that UL would say humm why should we let them have high voltage in the cash box area, where there is a big door people can open and feel around in and shock them selves? Lets make them keep all of the high voltage in the SERVICE AREA under lock and key....

    So which sounds more logical... The UL people watching out for peoples saftey or Stern re inventing the location of the power switch to save .50?

    JJ

    #314 6 years ago

    Pretty sure that games like bally lost world had the transformer in the head and switch still in the cabinet.

    The switch doesn't have to have 110 volts running through it, couldn't it just be like a garage door switch that is low voltage?

    #315 6 years ago
    Quoted from Gexchange:

    So which sounds more logical... The UL people watching out for peoples saftey or Stern re inventing the location of the power switch to save .50?
    JJ

    Is this a trick question? Honestly, I think it's neither, there was probably a different reason but one that wouldn't sit well with people so the safety reason is given.

    #316 6 years ago
    Quoted from taylor34:

    The switch doesn't have to have 110 volts running through it, couldn't it just be like a garage door switch that is low voltage?

    Sure it could. That would cost more money though...

    #317 6 years ago
    Quoted from zr11990:

    Are these the same crappy boards that come in all household appliances now such as dishwashers, washers, dryers, refrigerators? They don't last more than 3!years

    Well, not exactly the same boards, but I like your comparison to new appliances. I buy older model used appliances that are simpler in design from classifieds. I don't need a refrigerator that emails me my grocery list and I only need 2 settings on my clothes washing machine. My stuff chugs along for years and when it breaks I buy a $10 thermostat or similar part from Ebay. My boss had a main board fry on his newer model dishwasher, and it wasn't cost effective to repair it, so he ended up replacing it.

    #318 6 years ago

    If stern were serious about supporting its operators with their modular system they'd do two things

    1 - standardize the boards and design revision compatibility into them. This is just sloppy and lazy on their pet right now
    2 - operate a next day advance replacement swap program for registered operators. Board is ID'd, stern advance overnights a replacement refurb'd board and the Op returns the failed one with a prepaid label.

    This incentives stern to build for reliable operation and creates a tight relationship between stern and its route operators- which stern claims themselves are critical to the long term success of stern.

    One might say that is a paid support program, but to make it a paid self standing program removes stern's liability in it all. They could something like require a certain # of buys in a time period to remain eligible etc

    10
    #319 6 years ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    If stern were serious about supporting its operators with their modular system they'd do two things

    #3 They'd release schematics as they did in the past so that us operators could service our games, especially 10-15 years down the road when Stern will have moved on to their next controller system.

    #320 6 years ago
    Quoted from stangbat:

    #3 They'd release schematics as they did in the past so that us operators could service our games, especially 10-15 years down the road when Stern will have moved on to their next controller system.

    yeah, manuals have gotten to be a complete disgrace. I've mentioned this previously in other threads. It wasn't long ago they were solid (LOTR era) and even in SAM era (like Metallica) they are a sham.

    #321 6 years ago
    Quoted from stangbat:

    #3 They'd release schematics as they did in the past so that us operators could service our games, especially 10-15 years down the road when Stern will have moved on to their next controller system.

    Yes, I agree. These are "commercial use" machines and need schematics of all boards and wiring in order to do proper *and* speedy repairs on location. Just like in the past days.

    Why can't Stern simply stick to the "tried and true" board systems of the past where you had these dedicated (and simple to repair) boards:

    Power supply board

    CPU board

    Solenoid driver board

    Lamp driver board

    Sound board

    #322 6 years ago
    Quoted from KenLayton:

    Why can't Stern simply stick to the "tried and true" board systems of the past where you had these dedicated (and simple to repair) boards

    Because they do not want you to repair the boards.

    #323 6 years ago

    there is no reason we shouldn't have schematics for every game we own. If not, then you are a shitty business with shitty business practices. And nobody should be buying your product anymore.

    #324 6 years ago

    Spike review

    #325 6 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    there is no reason we shouldn't have schematics for every game we own. If not, then you are a shitty business with shitty business practices. And nobody should be buying your product anymore.

    Welcome to the new world. Do you get schematics with every other electronics products you own? How about your computer or your television? Don't buy a Blackstar guitar amplifier if you want to repair it yourself, BS will not answer any questions and they will not issue schematics.

    You don't get owners manuals with most modern products, either. You download them, sometimes for free, sometimes paid - if they are made available at all.

    Sure, the argument could be made that they are commercial products, but since now the focus is consumer markets it would appear they are adopting many of the consumer market philosophies regarding repair support.

    #326 6 years ago
    Quoted from wayout440:

    Welcome to the new world. Do you get schematics with every other electronics products you own? How about your computer or your television? Don't buy a Blackstar guitar amplifier if you want to repair it yourself, BS will not answer any questions and they will not issue schematics.
    You don't get owners manuals with most modern products, either. You download them, sometimes for free, sometimes paid - if they are made available at all.
    Sure, the argument could be made that they are commercial products, but since now the focus is consumer markets it would appear they are adopting many of the consumer market philosophies regarding repair support.

    How many of those products are sold, supported, and serviced by a direct channel network of distributors?

    The problem is Stern relies on this very structure... and isn't even servicing that anymore.

    #327 6 years ago

    Case in point with "micro electronics". I worked with Ricoh and Canon copy machine for a while. They are big beefy devices with lots of room. They had the most rock solid well designed boards in them, pretty much with lots of through hole design. Nothing was crammed. The boards where not intended to be field serviced, BUT where not so damn cramp small for no reason. A field service guy would pull a board and send it back to be serviced and then put back in the field (re serviced parts had a special part number)

    RICOH even used the FM1608 dip28 part up until RAMTRON discontinued it (the fm1608 chips i sold was pulled from ricoh copy machines).

    Example of a modern cannon circuit board. (robbed the heat sinks off of them).

    20170814_094849 (resized).jpg20170814_094849 (resized).jpg

    #328 6 years ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    How many of those products are sold, supported, and serviced by a direct channel network of distributors?

    I don't know exactly, but it's true of many consumer electronics these days. In the Blackstar example, only authorized Blackstar service centers can get the schematics. Even if you're a music store that typically repairs amps for it's customers, unless you are "authorized" you can't get them.

    #329 6 years ago

    Seems funny they flip flop. They say these are aimed more at home market so we don't include schematics and such. If you are talking about defects and the cost of a new machine they say these are meant for commercial markets. I guess it's whatever fits the problem.

    12
    #330 6 years ago
    Quoted from wayout440:

    Welcome to the new world. Do you get schematics with every other electronics products you own? How about your computer or your television? Don't buy a Blackstar guitar amplifier if you want to repair it yourself, BS will not answer any questions and they will not issue schematics.
    You don't get owners manuals with most modern products, either. You download them, sometimes for free, sometimes paid - if they are made available at all.
    Sure, the argument could be made that they are commercial products, but since now the focus is consumer markets it would appear they are adopting many of the consumer market philosophies regarding repair support.

    these are commercial grade machines, ment to be serviceable by operators. Not some disposable DVD player or other cheap system.

    #331 6 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    these are commercial grade machines, ment to be serviceable by operators. Not some disposable DVD player or other cheap system.

    I'm not talking about Wal-Mart electronics either. I'm talking about things such as pro audio gear meant to be used by professional musicians and commercial grade radio gear. These are people's livelyhood as well.

    #332 6 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    these are commercial grade machines, ment to be serviceable by operators. Not some disposable DVD player or other cheap system.

    Oh, and if you are an operator and think you will require a schematic and can't get one, then vote with your wallet and don't buy it.

    #333 6 years ago
    Quoted from wayout440:

    Oh, and if you are an operator and think you will require a schematic and can't get one, then vote with your wallet and don't buy it.

    I am. I will not buy another stern until they make the boards serviceable and provide the documents you need to keep it maintained.

    #334 6 years ago

    Samiam (resized).jpgSamiam (resized).jpg

    4 weeks later
    #335 6 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    i'm on the fence about selling my GB as well because of this very thing. The game is awesome. I love it. But 10 years from now, I don't want to be trying to find and scrounge node boards to keep it alive.

    I know this sucks, but you guys should think about buying some of these node boards now while you can. Hell, you could always sell them as N.O.S. down the road.

    #336 6 years ago

    At this point, I have a Star Wars where the screen randomly turns off (game still plays, must be power cycled), Game of Thrones that will randomly reboot, and a Ghostbusters where the top half playfield switches stop responding (again, reboot and all will be fine). Tough thing is all these issues only crop up once or twice a week. Machines get pretty good play. Stern is willing to send stuff, but they have to idea as to the true solution to any of these issues.

    15
    #337 6 years ago
    Quoted from StylesBitchly:

    I know this sucks, but you guys should think about buying some of these node boards now while you can. Hell, you could always sell them as N.O.S. down the road.

    i shouldn't have to stock up on $300 node boards...and not just one type, at least 3 different types. So say you need 3 of each on hand for the distant future. That's 9 boards minimum. And that's if they don't change it again through another release. So I have to have $2700 in boards sitting around, instead of piles of .01 cent diodes, $2 chips, and .05 transistors? Screw that and screw stern for fawking over the guys that like to service their games instead of making them disposable!

    #338 6 years ago
    Quoted from spazzman90:

    At this point, I have a Star Wars where the screen randomly turns off (game still plays, must be power cycled), Game of Thrones that will randomly reboot, and a Ghostbusters where the top half playfield switches stop responding (again, reboot and all will be fine). Tough thing is all these issues only crop up once or twice a week. Machines get pretty good play. Stern is willing to send stuff, but they have to idea as to the true solution to any of these issues.

    would a fresh SD card / full clean install do any thing??

    Is something crashing at the OS level?

    #339 6 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    i shouldn't have to stock up on $300 node boards...and not just one type, at least 3 different types. So say you need 3 of each on hand for the distant future. That's 9 boards minimum. And that's if they don't change it again through another release. So I have to have $2700 in boards sitting around, instead of piles of .01 cent diodes, $2 chips, and .05 transistors? Screw that and screw stern for fawking over the guys that like to service their games instead of making them disposable!

    talking about do they have some kind of U-boot or what even is the hardware boot loader is recovery system from bad flash if there is any flash on the base board??

    I once had to use the serial port on some network hardware to reload the boot loader and fix it's config.

    #340 6 years ago

    So funny I've been saying spike blows from the very beginning and got called out on it.

    How things change in such a short time.

    1 month later
    #341 6 years ago

    What bothers me is that if I cannot diagnose and repair my own pins, new pinball machines are going to become the domain of people wealthier than me just like everything else that floats, flies or fucks.

    #342 6 years ago
    Quoted from StylesBitchly:

    What bothers me is that if I cannot diagnose and repair my own pins, new pinball machines are going to become the domain of people wealthier than me just like everything else that floats, flies or fucks.

    sounds like cars you need to use the dealer for reading codes / tools / part install codes to fix it.

    #343 6 years ago

    SPIKE can probably be good one day, but it's just not a finished platform. Maybe that happens with SPIKE 3 or whatever, but it's just not fully baked as it is. When code updates are literally burning out node boards, you know there's work left to be done.

    2 months later
    #344 6 years ago

    IMO Sam was the best and most reliable system ever with the original WPC boards not far behind,

    #345 6 years ago

    I’m still happier I got my TWD with the Last of the Sam system and not the Spike. Big turnoff is lack of ‘real world’ testing on new hardware.

    #346 6 years ago
    Quoted from hoby1:

    IMO Sam was the best and most reliable system ever with the original WPC boards not far behind,

    I've always thought Whitestar boards were pretty good. I liked that they gave you a way to adjust the +5V right on the board, but weird that they didn't give you an actual test point for it. GI connectors were an issue, but then again those plagued just about every manufacturer back then.

    #347 6 years ago

    I see a factory warranty being offered in the future at point of sale for a price......just like autos. “These aren’t your dads pinball machine, they require professional service” they will tell us. They did it to cars, now they’re doing it to pinball. Next they will tell us it’s not our machine, we only “licensed” it’s use when we “paid” for it.

    #348 6 years ago

    SAM is a better system in my opinion.

    #349 6 years ago
    Quoted from wayout440:

    I'm not talking about Wal-Mart electronics either. I'm talking about things such as pro audio gear meant to be used by professional musicians and commercial grade radio gear. These are people's livelyhood as well.

    I am Service dept manager for a major Broadway audio production facility.Very few component level repairs being done.Its mostly board swaps.We have several bench techs who do hands on repairs but its expensive and time consuming.Our access to schematics is based on whether or not we are authorized.Stern should either provide authorized "service centers"(this could be an op or restorer)or they should provide schematics.Basically some sort of "support" for their products.

    #350 6 years ago
    Quoted from jar155:

    When code updates are literally burning out node boards

    is that really happening??

    There are 368 posts in this topic. You are on page 7 of 8.

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