(Topic ID: 306503)

Relay Residual Magnetism?

By Gotemwill

2 years ago


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    #1 2 years ago

    The armature on this relay remains pulled-in after the relay coil is de-activated. If I release the armature, it does not stick again until the coil is re-activated. It does not stick when activating the armature manually. I have ruled out any sort of mechanical issues (dirt, corrosion, wear, etc). A stronger return spring did not solve the problem.

    Has anyone seen this before and if so, what was the fix? I’m familiar with some of the homebrew demagnetization procedures, but I’m hoping there may be other options or something I’m overlooking. I would rather not disassemble this relay assembly since the parts on this machine are made of unobtainum.

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    #2 2 years ago

    You could try adjusting the long leafs that go through the armature so that they have a bit more pull towards the open position and then readjust the short leafs as needed.

    #3 2 years ago

    That plate looks quite rusty. Try lightly sanding the Armature plate where it comes in contact.(that whole plate can be cleaned)Sometimes but rarely I have found, you may have to adjust the ‘hooked end’ of the Armature plate so less tension. I think you may be good with a sanding.

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    #4 2 years ago

    I agree with cash - clean the armature plate first. I've had some luck putting a piece of electrical tape on the armature plate where it contacts the magnetic core. I've used that as a temporary fix until I could get new parts.

    #5 2 years ago

    The magnetic plate appears "rusty". Before taking it apart you can try a drop of Bally light lube on the metal on metal contact points.

    The long switch blade on the outside double switch should be straight. If the lube doesn't correct the return problem I would straighten that switch blade and adjust the short blades to make and break properly when you manually press on the magnetic plate.

    Good luck

    #6 2 years ago

    There is not any mechanical resistance when the armature is activated manually. The armature clearly remains attracted to the coil pole after the relay is deactivated. One they are separated, it will not stick again until after the relay is activated.

    #7 2 years ago
    Quoted from DrRobert:

    The magnetic plate appears "rusty". Before taking it apart you can try a drop of Bally light lube on the metal on metal contact points.
    The long switch blade on the outside double switch should be straight. If the lube doesn't correct the return problem I would straighten that switch blade and adjust the short blades to make and break properly when you manually press on the magnetic plate.
    Good luck

    Quoted from bonzo71:

    You could try adjusting the long leafs that go through the armature so that they have a bit more pull towards the open position and then readjust the short leafs as needed.

    Thanks I will look at the switch adjustment closer.

    #8 2 years ago

    Are you sure that there's an insulating brass washer between the coil base and the relay frame?

    #9 2 years ago

    I had magnetism on a Gottlieb EM.. Definitely clean the armature first. If its magnetism, its an easy fix. first test is to remove the coil from the bracket and test for magnet-- see if a small screw sticks to the frame. If it does, youtube a video for degaussing a monitor with a soldering gun. It will remove the magnetism from the metal frame with the same method.

    #10 2 years ago

    Remove the armature plate and bang it with a hammer a few times. This removes the residual magnetism.

    #11 2 years ago
    Quoted from jrpinball:

    Are you sure that there's an insulating brass washer between the coil base and the relay frame?

    There is an insulating pressboard sheet between the coil and the frame. This is a very original game and the relays do not appear to have ever been taken apart. I’m experiencing the exact same problem on two different identical relays.

    I assume that the brass washer is to create an air gap so the flux is only attracted to the armature and not the frame. In any case the frame does not appear to be magnetized during relay operation.

    I tried the degaussing method with a weller soldering gun without success. The armature plates are a bit oxidized as some have pointed out but the hinge interface is clean and the armature moves without any problem when operated manually, or after it is separated from the pole following a relay operation. I guess my next course of action at this point is a stronger return spring.

    This is maddening.

    #12 2 years ago

    Is the game DC by any chance?

    #13 2 years ago

    No, the coils are 30V. No rectifier.

    #14 2 years ago

    I made a double strong pot of coffee and decided to disassemble the relay.

    Heres some pictures of the armature and coil. I am assuming the shaded pole and brass rivet on the armature are to limit coil buzzing. In any case, I cleaned up everything very well, banged on the armature with a hammer and waved it over the electromagnetic field from the old weller junior solder gun.

    Upon reassembly, the relay functions and returns as it should. Troubleshooting is changing one thing at a time, but in this case I wanted to minimize taking things apart multiple times. So I’m not sure which one of the things I did solved the problem.

    Questions, comments, speculations or insults welcome.

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    #15 2 years ago

    As I wrote and paulace agreed, I would say the cleaning was most responsible. You seemed to have ignored the fact till now but glad you took it apart and it’s working.

    #16 2 years ago

    Do not discount the brand of coffee as influential.

    #17 2 years ago

    El Exigente. The demanding one!

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    #18 2 years ago

    Is that Peter Sellers in that ad?

    1 week later
    #19 2 years ago

    Well the caffeine from my double strong pot of (https://redroostercoffee.com/) coffee wore off and so eventually did my repair! After 3 games, the armature started to stick again. This time I was sure that there was no dirt or crud holding things up (sorry, cash-riprock). So it was back to the drawing board.

    What I figured out was that there was too much clearance in the armature slot where it slides onto the frame. This additional clearance (.021”) allowed the armature to move around such that the little brass rivet on the armature was no longer aligning perfectly with the coil pole when it was pulled close. I figured out that this alignment was key in allowing the armature to release since the brass is non-magnetic.

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    I decided the best fix would be to make a shim to take up this clearance and keep the armature in position. I made a pattern and cut it out of .016” aluminum stock figuring that the additional .005” would allow for the correct action so it didn’t bind. I allowed a little extra on the sides to fold over the frame to keep everything in place.

    The result was great! The relay now *snaps* open and close like it was designed. This is important since this relay controls the 1k/10k change over scoring feature between the two pairs of playfield bumpers. It’s fun to see the playfield light inserts dance back and forth during the reset sequence again.

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    #20 2 years ago

    Bravo!

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