(Topic ID: 217486)

Reducing Weight on Coil Plungers....

By WeatherbyMAG

5 years ago


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  • 15 posts
  • 11 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by cottonm4
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    #1 5 years ago

    So.... I was over at a Friends house last week working on the transmission in his Son's race car.... He is an Electrical Engineer who owns his own consulting firm. He knows I'm big into older pinball machines, he's seen my collection & we've talked about electrical issues with them in the past. I was talking to him about cutting some windings off of coils for more pop, & reaching point of diminishing returns etc, to point where you can make the coil weaker etc. I know this is a semi common trick at least on EM's... & he made the comment, why not just lighten the plunger, rather tan try to make the coil field stronger? Hmmm... never thought about that.... I'm an automotive machinist by trade, so drilling a coil plunger is no big deal.

    I'm working on restoring a 1979 Stern Trident I picked up at Allentown.... This machine has 4 slingshots.... & I do love a powerful sling... So I decided this would be my test bed. I'm in middle of finishing clear coat job on PF & will be soon ready to start putting it back together, so tonight I took first slingshot coil plunger & drilled it out to .265" ID. It is a "normal" .4375" OD (7/16") Plunger.... Weighed it on my digital cartridge powder reloading scale at 36.5 grams with the fiber link & roll pin left in place before machining.... after the .265" hole, it's at 24.3 grams, so lightened it about 1/3. 12 Grams in the palm of the hand is very noticeable.... I machined the tip flat from the light edge left by drill bit, touched up the edge bevel & polished the OD on the buffer. This plunger was in pretty good condition to begin with, no mushrooming etc.

    Now, I imagine that coil stop life is going to be considerably worse, since it now has a hole in the end of the plunger to work against.... but for a game that may see 100 games a year on it? How bad can it be?

    Just curious if anyone else has ever messed around with lightening their plungers or arms etc to make their pop bumpers, slings, flippers etc faster/hit harder? I don't think this is something I'd really want to do on the flipper plunger due to how much use they see compared to slings etc, but maybe I'll try a pair in one of my games just to see... plungers & coil stops are cheap, so don't see the harm in trying it once?

    Thoughts?

    #2 5 years ago

    Early classic Stern flipper plungers are smaller diameter for about 2/3 of their length. Don’t know if this was done to reduce weight or cost though.

    #3 5 years ago

    I have 4 of those reduced diameter plungers. I'll put up pics later today

    #4 5 years ago

    Interesting idea, so what's the result? Does it perform better or worse?
    .

    Quoted from WeatherbyMAG:

    Now, I imagine that coil stop life is going to be considerably worse, since it now has a hole in the end of the plunger to work against....

    What about drilling into the plunger from the other end (where the link connects) so you don't have a hole at the coil stop end?

    #5 5 years ago
    Quoted from WeatherbyMAG:

    So.... I was over at a Friends house last week working on the transmission in his Son's race car.... He is an Electrical Engineer who owns his own consulting firm. He knows I'm big into older pinball machines, he's seen my collection & we've talked about electrical issues with them in the past. I was talking to him about cutting some windings off of coils for more pop, & reaching point of diminishing returns etc, to point where you can make the coil weaker etc. I know this is a semi common trick at least on EM's... & he made the comment, why not just lighten the plunger, rather tan try to make the coil field stronger? Hmmm... never thought about that.... I'm an automotive machinist by trade, so drilling a coil plunger is no big deal.
    I'm working on restoring a 1979 Stern Trident I picked up at Allentown.... This machine has 4 slingshots.... & I do love a powerful sling... So I decided this would be my test bed. I'm in middle of finishing clear coat job on PF & will be soon ready to start putting it back together, so tonight I took first slingshot coil plunger & drilled it out to .265" ID. It is a "normal" .4375" OD (7/16") Plunger.... Weighed it on my digital cartridge powder reloading scale at 36.5 grams with the fiber link & roll pin left in place before machining.... after the .265" hole, it's at 24.3 grams, so lightened it about 1/3. 12 Grams in the palm of the hand is very noticeable.... I machined the tip flat from the light edge left by drill bit, touched up the edge bevel & polished the OD on the buffer. This plunger was in pretty good condition to begin with, no mushrooming etc.
    Now, I imagine that coil stop life is going to be considerably worse, since it now has a hole in the end of the plunger to work against.... but for a game that may see 100 games a year on it? How bad can it be?
    Just curious if anyone else has ever messed around with lightening their plungers or arms etc to make their pop bumpers, slings, flippers etc faster/hit harder? I don't think this is something I'd really want to do on the flipper plunger due to how much use they see compared to slings etc, but maybe I'll try a pair in one of my games just to see... plungers & coil stops are cheap, so don't see the harm in trying it once?
    Thoughts?

    You should have drilled from the back side and left the face undrilled. That would have made the life of the plunger not be reduced. Does the mass of the metal affect its interaction with the magnetic field?

    #6 5 years ago
    Quoted from dothedoo:

    Early classic Stern flipper plungers are smaller diameter for about 2/3 of their length. Don’t know if this was done to reduce weight or cost though.

    Old bally too. They've got that plastic ring around them to make them the right size for the sleeve

    #7 5 years ago

    An excellent idea.

    Can't wait for the results.

    E

    #8 5 years ago

    Reducing the weight is a interesting idea, seems like it should work.
    Alot of chime plungers have the center drilled out.

    On the same thoughts on making plungers faster, I have wondered about this- could the air trapped between the plunger and the coil stop actually slow down the travel as it needs to escape when energized? I have thought about drilling a small hole it the coil stop for air to escape. Not sure it would make a difference. Drilling a hole completely through the plunger would do both- reduce wieght and provide air release.

    #9 5 years ago
    Quoted from Marvin:

    Does the mass of the metal affect its interaction with the magnetic field?

    This part has me curious too. Does less metal there impact it’s reaction to the magnetic field.

    Also I’d be curious about inertia and momentum. Like unloaded it could be faster, but while pushing the ball it’s slower. I’d need lots of testing.

    On a Bally game, things like swapping out linear flippers for the new style is a huge improvement. I’m just not sure how far that can be taken until it negatively impacts play. But very curious to see your results.

    #10 5 years ago
    Quoted from DaveH:

    Also I’d be curious about inertia and momentum. Like unloaded it could be faster, but while pushing the ball it’s slower. I’d need lots of testing.

    Talking to an engineer/physics friend recently and he said that for most of the kickers/bumpers, the ball is probably only in contact during the moment they first collide. The force of the kicker already accelerating towards the ball will bash the ball away, not much follow through. No real way to tell though.

    #11 5 years ago

    Someone with some computer modeling savvy could investigate this. Personally, I feel there are so many parameters and many other simpler methods to increase a coils performance that screwing around with the plunger weight isn't worth my time. There's also the possibility of overdoing it. Some of the "hotter" coils in my games have resulted in broken plastics, excessive wear and other damage.

    https://www.comsol.com/blogs/part-1-how-to-model-a-linear-electromagnetic-plunger/

    #12 5 years ago
    Quoted from Quench:

    Interesting idea, so what's the result? Does it perform better or worse?
    .

    What about drilling into the plunger from the other end (where the link connects) so you don't have a hole at the coil stop end?

    I won't know the results till the game is back together..... I may pull a couple out of working games this weekend & get some before & after results, before I continue on with any more in this Trident.

    Drilling from the rear & leaving the tip alone, could certainly be done, but it will reduce my ability to run larger diameter holes, as I don't want to interfere, or mess with the "legs" that stick out for the roll pin on that side....

    I had another thought last night about the coil stop end.... I could also drill an even larger diameter hole... & then tap the end & put a pipe plug or set screw in the end & make it 100% flush again, but I would still have the majority of the weight out in the center. I stopped at .265" because I don't want to go any bigger, to leave some material at the end to hit the coil stop... I think .265" is already pushing it... but that's what it took to get 1/3 the weight out.

    Also from limited research, & just drilling on this one last night, I believe the majority of these are just Iron.... Iron is much more brittle than steel, & if you get too crazy, they will eventually crack/fall apart I suppose. So I'm not sure I could safely do too much bigger hole.... I may have already went too large, Dunno...

    I did the remove some windings trick on the ball shooters on my Space odyssey before & after & didn't notice a huge difference in power.... I would say it was negligible.

    Yes, I realize I can get these too powerful & will probably start breaking plastics & I could see some of these slingshot designs actually starting to rip the screws out of the PF etc...

    I was just curious to see if anyone has ever done it before.

    I had about 10 minutes or less in doing this first plunger, so not really a big deal to me time wise.

    I have also seen some of the smaller diameter plungers in some of my games.... I assume that was done for weight, once the coil energizes & the mag field is up, the plunger is instantly centered in the sleeve, so having a plunger smaller OD is not that big of a deal. It will cause little more premature wear on the link end of the plunger it seems from my unscientific observations of the smaller OD ones but.... again, these machines are not on location anymore & seeing 10's of thousands of games a year, so not sure it matters to the average Joe like me...

    #13 5 years ago
    Quoted from ryan1234:

    On the same thoughts on making plungers faster, I have wondered about this- could the air trapped between the plunger and the coil stop actually slow down the travel as it needs to escape when energized? I have thought about drilling a small hole it the coil stop for air to escape. Not sure it would make a difference. Drilling a hole completely through the plunger would do both- reduce wieght and provide air release.

    The pop bumper coil stops on my DE Simpsons were drilled out just like that, presumably by the manufacturer. Not sure if all Data East games of that era were drilled so, anyone else notice this on their DE games?

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    #14 5 years ago
    Quoted from WeatherbyMAG:

    I have also seen some of the smaller diameter plungers in some of my games.... I assume that was done for weight, once the coil energizes & the mag field is up, the plunger is instantly centered in the sleeve, so having a plunger smaller OD is not that big of a deal. It will cause little more premature wear on the link end of the plunger it seems from my unscientific observations of the smaller OD ones but.... again, these machines are not on location anymore & seeing 10's of thousands of games a year, so

    Another thing to note on those: the strength of a solenoid is affected by the distance between the coil and the plunger inside of it, so technically those small plungers are going to be weaker in that respect

    I wonder if they were done that way so the plunger could wobble in the coil so as to avoid the need for links.

    #15 5 years ago

    This is the Classic Stern plunger mentioned earlier. 4 of these were on a Seawitch I bought. The flipper links are worn and the tip is cupped so I have never used them. But I like the concept. I don't look at it as reduced weight. I am thinking reduced drag inside the coil sleeve.

    With this design, it seems to me that if there is any wear in the links then the plunger might bind inside the sleeve.

    I would like to try cutting them in a "barbell" design: Large O.D.s on both ends with the middle shaft milled into a triangle configuration. A triangle cross section would reduce some weight and the points on the triangle would still offer support to keep the plunger stiff.

    Unfortunately, I don't know any machinists with a Bridgeport and to pay a shop would probably be cost prohibitive.

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