Anyone have a 'translation' document for relays, etc. between Gottlieb and Recel?

I have the schematics for the Recel game (Top Speed) but relays do not always match with typical Gottlieb names.

Thanks

-scott

I need to understand why there are three reset relays in the head versus two.

Gottlieb start-up sequence documentation refers to the SB relay - what is this on the Recel?

Can someone post a clear picture of the wiring on the disc of the player unit for me? (I imagine would be the same on any Recel game).

Thanks all-

-scott

Hey Rolf

Thanks for the input! Here is a pic of that section of the schematic. Looks like the player unit goes to 22 instead of just 21.

I'm having a tough time trying to figure out how to check/adjust the switches in the reset bank.

Will check the website you mentioned.

Tks

Scott

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Hey Rolf -

I think that manual will be very helpful, but I am always in need of help! Here is what Top Speed is doing. I have de-gunked all of the steppers, score reel assemblies, and score motor.

I have the motor board out on a bench at the back of the machine so I can reach everything and still keep it plugged in to the head.

The PF is not connected at this point.

If I manually trip the start relay (S), here is what happens:
Score motor turns 120 degrees and stops
Reset bank coil trips at the end of the 120 degree turn
PLay counter advances by 1.

That's it. No other relays pull in. No scores reset. Nothing.

Thanks for your advice!

-scott

Hey Rolf -

Did as you said and manually activated the GO and PP relays. Turned machine on and manually activated start relay. Same thing as before - score motor turns 120 and stops, and bank reset coil fires.

Thanks for all of your help and time with this!

-scott

Update -

Had a misadjusted switch on the Hold relay. Now when I power the game on, the GO relay pulls in (and buzzes). Manually tripping the start relay does the same as it did before.

Ok so found a couple more wires that had come disconnected and fixed them...

Now - if I activate tilt hold and hold it and then activate hold (R), the tilt hold will stay in (and some feature lights on the PF will light.

If I let go of (R), they both release - so R will not hold by itself. It looks like the anticheat is the only other switch in that circuit, and I think it is ok but will recheck.

If I keep the start relay held in, the motor will Continue to run. It resets the relay bank every 120 degrees, and it also will advance the player/ball unit two clicks for each turn...and the score reels will reset two digits at a time along with the player unit pulsing. But I have to keep the s relay manually pressed in.

New update -

So I got to examining the circuits for 'R' and 'H'. Went back to the anticheat switches and jumpered the connectors from the coin door tilt switch. That switch is NC.

In doing so, now when powering on the game, the H relay and R relay now pull in.

So my new steps on power on are:
GO and PP actuate
Score motor turns 120
R, S and V relays actuate
Just before score motor stops, H actuates
Player unit advances 2 with score motor
Bank resets along with S and V
H and R remain engaged

If I then actuate S, the 2nd player relay (J2) engages, score motor turns 120, and the relay bank resets.

I feel like this is progress!

Some pics for reference....

I'll work through your post and we'll see what happens.

The Balls Unit (Recel name) is essentially the player unit on a GTB. Switch stack 5 has one make/break switch on it.

Actuating the V relay (replay button) does nothing. Remember the coin door is not connected tho.

-scott

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Hey Rolf -

Did as requested. When I found home and stepped forward 15 steps on the player unit I DO in fact have an active PF.

But...every switch on the PF triggers the start relay (S) and the machine does the same thing that I mentioned earlier...player unit advances 2 steps, score motor turns 120, bank resets. Every switch does the same thing on PF. All coils do work, however.

You are a great asset to us on this board - thank you again!!

Here's the schematic in sections...

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Rolf and others following along...three videos to show what is going on. Watch in sequence...

Here is the first video - sorry! Shows me manipulating the player (balls) unit.

Thanks Rolf -

As always your help is/will be most valuable and appreciated!

-scott

Updates -

I was able to get the game to player-one, ball one and "play".

The scoring worked as it should - bumpers and rollovers incremented only one (hundred, thousand, etc.) and did not run the score motor or Reset the bank.

At the end of the ball, bonus counted down and the ball return fired. I could then manually run the player unit to player one-ball two and so on, through a complete game. The game did not go into game over at the end of Ball 5, however.

Will take a look at disconnecting the V relay tomorrow and see what happens.

Hey Clay! Thanks for joining the discussion. I did search the ninja site when I started helping my friend with this but not too much on there related to Recel!

You are absolutely correct - I can't tell you how many wires I have found disconnected or have come loose while working on something (like spinning the reset relay bank around).

I THINK I have them all around the game corrected, but I use fingertip touches because I just never know when another one will pop off. I also found that I needed to add fresh solder to all of those connections - the old stuff apparently lost some of its sticking power to the point that even a re-heat is not enough.

Rolf - The Player 4 relay on the reset bank does not want to latch in the off position (inactive). When the bank resets, the Player 4 relay just drops right back down. When I had that off to diagnose, I noticed that the GO Relay (the next one over) had a pair of NO contacts that were making even when the relay was not active. I adjusted that and then the PF started scoring correctly.

I have a feeling there is another relay in the bank (First Ball, Last Ball, PM, etc.) that I do not have adjusted correctly. That is tonight's plan - to go through them (AGAIN) and see if something is making when it should not. I imagine that is the key to the start relay triggering during a game and also the reason the game will not reset.

For what its worth, the V (Reset-button) Relay does nothing at any state of game operation, other than actuating alongside the start relay when the score motor runs. The S relay will make score motor actuate, but the V relay does nothing when manually actuated.

The PO apparently disconnected some wires from the coin relay (W) at some point - I think I am going to reconnect them before I go any further. I am sure it was to facilitate Free-Play somehow, but I can do that with the credit stepper '0' switches and leave the wiring intact, so that troubleshooting for the next person will be easier.

Thanks again everyone! Clay if you have a minute to watch those little videos I posted and can give any more insight that would help us. I am sure this is a similar issue to what could happen on a GTB of the same era, but my biggest challenge has been trying to create the logic links between GTB and Recel.

-scott

Ever feel like you are running in circles?

Well I checked each of the bank relays to make sure they are operating correctly. At least I think they are!

PM1 was not correct, thus causing the bank to Reset every 120 of motor rotation, so that is no longer an issue.

Still not getting the correct action with the S relay, but now, if I manually actuate pm2, the machine will pulse the player unit and then decrement the bonus unit. Problem is neither will stop. If in the midst of this madness I actuate PM2, then everything stops when the motor reaches home and resets the relay bank.

I'm done for tonight. Thanks you all for putting up with me!

-scott

Update all-

Well I have solved my Reset problem. Had a couple of switches in the reset bank that were not quite right. Also was not getting the score reels to clear to zero, so got that straight and now the game goes through full reset - player one ball one. But...

I have no power to PF coils, and no scoring. I can manually score by actuating the score relays, but no switches score, no flippers, no chimes, no bumpers, etc.

Ball does not kick out into shooter lane.

So making progress but still a ways to go.

-scott

Nightly update!

Well I made quite a bit of progress today. The issue with no PF power fracked back to an issue with Reset Relay no.2.

So now the game will reset and start and lo and behold I can play a game.

Also fixed an issue with the first ball relay that was causing the game to actually start on player 2 ball one.

Which brings up another issue: I can only play a 2 player game. I believe I have a switch issue in the player 2 relay. Will fix tomorrow.

Also, bonus countdown at the end of the ball goes on forever. Something else to look at.

Thanks all - we'll keep plugging away.

-scott

Just a quick update all -

I finally have Top Speed working almost 100%. I have replaced all lamp sockets on PF (they were all corroded junk). Everything is working correctly. I had to readjust switches in the reset bank relays several times to get everything right.

Now all features are working and scoring correctly.

The only thing left to fix are lamp sockets in the back box and I can only play a 2 player game. If I add the third and fourth players, the game just moves back and forth between player one and two (correctly), but will not move to player 3 or 4.

Thanks again all for the help and translations!

-scott