Anyone have a 'translation' document for relays, etc. between Gottlieb and Recel?
I have the schematics for the Recel game (Top Speed) but relays do not always match with typical Gottlieb names.
Anyone have a 'translation' document for relays, etc. between Gottlieb and Recel?
I have the schematics for the Recel game (Top Speed) but relays do not always match with typical Gottlieb names.
I need to understand why there are three reset relays in the head versus two.
Gottlieb start-up sequence documentation refers to the SB relay - what is this on the Recel?
Can someone post a clear picture of the wiring on the disc of the player unit for me? (I imagine would be the same on any Recel game).
You write about the SB-Relay - my 1974 Far Out (Gottlieb) still has the huge Control-Bank in the cabinet --- Far Out has SB1-Reset-Control-Relay and SB2-Reset-Control-Switches (no coil as connected to SB1) --- the Recel Underwater lists "PM1 and PM2".
You write about three reset relays - Far Out has two reset relays --- they do get activated when the Player-Unit is stepped when resetting --- Player-Unit-Positions "20 and 21" --- please show the area in Your schematics where the three reset relays are activated, greetings Rolf
the schematics "Recel Check Mate" lists three Reset-Relays: PC1 for first player, PC2 for 2nd and 3rd, PC3 for 3rd and 4th Player (and PM for Reset-Control)
PC1,2,3 do the job of resetting the Score-Drums while the PM is the boss controlling, greetings Rolf
Thanks for the input! Here is a pic of that section of the schematic. Looks like the player unit goes to 22 instead of just 21.
I'm having a tough time trying to figure out how to check/adjust the switches in the reset bank.
Will check the website you mentioned.
3 Reset relays instead of 2 because Top Speed has more score reels than an typical Gottlieb (5 active vs 4 per player).
Hey Rolf -
I think that manual will be very helpful, but I am always in need of help! Here is what Top Speed is doing. I have de-gunked all of the steppers, score reel assemblies, and score motor.
I have the motor board out on a bench at the back of the machine so I can reach everything and still keep it plugged in to the head.
The PF is not connected at this point.
If I manually trip the start relay (S), here is what happens:
Score motor turns 120 degrees and stops
Reset bank coil trips at the end of the 120 degree turn
PLay counter advances by 1.
That's it. No other relays pull in. No scores reset. Nothing.
Thanks for your advice!
Some games have integral features on the playfield that are part of the reset process. So I would not expect it to function properly with the playfield unplugged.
You might try stepping the player unit to different areas and repeat the start relay tests.
You might also want to place all the score reel at zero and see if it reacts differently.
I say the same as CactusJack --- rather modern EM-Pins have an Bonus-Ladder - often mounted on the underneathside of the playfield --- if "at end of Reset-Cycle" ALL switches on this unit are open and if the Start-up / Resetting never needed closed switches: The pin starts-up without the playfield connected. A Bally pin MUST have the Coin-Door-Motor-Board connection because Bally pins have Coin-Chute-Switches that MUST be closed for startup.
You found the trick as with many Gottlieb pins - manually activating the S-Start-Relay makes the pin do some (little) work of the Start-up procedure.
Please write about "are You familiar with Gottlieb-Player-Unit ? The Home-Position on this Unit ? How to manually step to Home-Position ? How to step to Game-Over-Position ?
Can You manually make relays in the Control-Bank - "make a relay to plunge" ? Does Your Control-Bank have paper tags telling from left to write something like "J2 J3 J4 GO UB PP PM2 PM1" ?
Recel pins use Gottlieb logic - when we toggle-on the main power switch: The GO (Game-Over-Relay) and the PP (First-Ball-Relay) do plunge when we toggle-on --- or maybe they are plunged from the game before --- Your pin when You start it: Your pin does reset the Control-Bank - Your pin MUST make the GO-Relay and the PP-Relay plunge when You toggle-on the main power switch. Do they "plunge" ?
Whenever You just look at stuff or You work in the pin: HAVE the pin toggled-off - better: Have the main power cord unplugged (Safety Reasons) - ONLY plug-in / toggle-on when You want to do a test and need electricity --- then be very careful --- NEVER touch metal - may use an wooden stick for handling Relays.
So unplug the pin --- look at this video --- actually it is about AX-Relays - but it shows Gottlieb-Control-Bank stuff: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#axrelayvideo
At the time 00:48 to 00:58 "Clay" manually activates - make "plunge" some relays ---
please have Your pin unplugged and make the GO-Relay and the PP-Relay "plunge" --- then plug-in and start a game by manually activating the S-Start-Relay --- does the pin do MORE stuff with the plunged GO- and PP-Relay ? Greetings Rolf
the activating of PM2 when the S-Relay is active and the Motor is turning - see the JPG. After toggling-on the pin: The GO- and the PP-Relay must be actuated / plunged. Greetings Rolf
Hey Rolf -
Did as you said and manually activated the GO and PP relays. Turned machine on and manually activated start relay. Same thing as before - score motor turns 120 and stops, and bank reset coil fires.
Thanks for all of your help and time with this!
Had a misadjusted switch on the Hold relay. Now when I power the game on, the GO relay pulls in (and buzzes). Manually tripping the start relay does the same as it did before.
to Your existing problems a new problem has been added --- great that the GO-Relay plunges when You toggle-on the pin (due to a adjusted switch on R-Hold-Relay) --- but the GO-Relay should then not hum - as the GO-Relay has an switch (mounted on the GO-Relay) to CUT the "get feeded wire". Lets try an work-around for this little problem (humming): After toggling-on the pin: Manually activate the H-Relay (in the list in the schematics the text to the H-Relay is a bit faulty - they say H-Tilt-Relay BUT IT IS H-Tilt-HOLD-Relay) --- manually activate the H-Relay - question: Does it keeps-on pulling ? (it should) --- Also do manually activate the R-Hold-Relay - question: Does it keeps-on pulling ? (it should) ---
More to come on the first problem You mentioned, greetings Rolf
Ok so found a couple more wires that had come disconnected and fixed them...
Now - if I activate tilt hold and hold it and then activate hold (R), the tilt hold will stay in (and some feature lights on the PF will light.
If I let go of (R), they both release - so R will not hold by itself. It looks like the anticheat is the only other switch in that circuit, and I think it is ok but will recheck.
If I keep the start relay held in, the motor will Continue to run. It resets the relay bank every 120 degrees, and it also will advance the player/ball unit two clicks for each turn...and the score reels will reset two digits at a time along with the player unit pulsing. But I have to keep the s relay manually pressed in.
New update -
So I got to examining the circuits for 'R' and 'H'. Went back to the anticheat switches and jumpered the connectors from the coin door tilt switch. That switch is NC.
In doing so, now when powering on the game, the H relay and R relay now pull in.
So my new steps on power on are:
GO and PP actuate
Score motor turns 120
R, S and V relays actuate
Just before score motor stops, H actuates
Player unit advances 2 with score motor
Bank resets along with S and V
H and R remain engaged
If I then actuate S, the 2nd player relay (J2) engages, score motor turns 120, and the relay bank resets.
I feel like this is progress!
Yes - I also think You made progress. One way to work on a pin is to take tare of the very first abnormal thing and fix this. Another way is to accept abnormal behaviour and try to help the pin into "One-Player-Game - the player has action on the playfield and can somewhat play". I like the first (mentioned) way when I have good knowledge of the way the pin is constructed and I am familiar with such an pin --- I do have some 4-Player-Gottliebs and some 4-Player-Williams pins.
I have never seen the inside of an Recel pin - Yes, they are alike to Gottlieb - but at the moment I still struggle with understanding - looking at the Top Speed schematics and studying the ipdb-Manual of "Lady Luck" to figure out the Start-up Procedure. The ending of Your post-17 gives me hope --- "You actuate (again) the S-Relay --- and the J-TWO actuates" --- the pin acts as if he has started and resetted and when people press again the S-Relay - the pin says OK - I am ready but they want a two player-game ...
So my hope is: Instead of You actuating again the S-Relay --- You bring the Player-Unit (thats a Gottlieb word) - You bring the Recel-Add-Balls-Unit (another word for +/- same Unit) into the position "Home means Zero means ready for a One-Player-Game to launch and play the first ball".
Here http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2590&picno=49199&zoom=1 in the upper left corner I see some Unit that looks like a (Gottlieb) Player-Unit - question: Is this the Unit You say in post-17 "advances 2" ?
If "Yes" please look at the second JPG here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gtlb-spirit-of-76-startup-problem#post-3402911 (do not read the post) --- then look here http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/Images/CamPositions-4Player.jpg . Toggle-off Your pin and look at that Unit in the Backbox --- do You have such Nylon cams - and the cam closest to the wood ONLY has ONE tooth --- try to step the unit until this "only one tooth" actuates its switchstack --- THIS IS HOME-Position also called Position-Zero. Then step the Unit some 15 steps more. Plug-in, toggle-on, start a game --- wait --- pin idles - NOW You manually step the Unit further to HOME-Position --- big question: Dou You have action on the playfield ? Can You play a ball ?
I believe that this Unit is like a Gottlieb-Player-Unit --- in post-6 You show a snippet of schematics and in there I see Position-Numbers "8,9,10,11" and "16,17,18,19" and this numbering IS GOTTLIEB-numbering. So I hope: You manually step to Home-Position (the ONLY tooth on cam-5 actuates its switchstack) and You can play.
The way the stepping is done in an Gottlieb pin (Player-Unit):
Home-Position is Zero-Position is "Player-1-Ball-1"
Position-1 is "Player-2-Ball-1"
Position-2 is "Player-3-Ball-1"
Position-3 is "Player-4-Ball-1"
Position-4 is "Player-1-Ball-2"
Position-5 is "Player-2-Ball-2"
Position-6 is "Player-3-Ball-2"
Position-7 is "Player-4-Ball-2"
Position-8 is "Player-1-Ball-3"
Position-9 is "Player-2-Ball-3" and on and on.
When You had stepped some 15 positions before starting a new game: You have the Unit set for the pin to step a bit - do resetting, then stepping to Home-Position. YOU do the stepping to Home-Position. Greetings Rolf
P.S. - Want to try (?) - Instead of manually activating the S-Relay: Manually activate the "V-Replay-Button-Relay" --- question: Is this better than manually activating the S-Relay ?
Some pics for reference....
I'll work through your post and we'll see what happens.
The Balls Unit (Recel name) is essentially the player unit on a GTB. Switch stack 5 has one make/break switch on it.
Actuating the V relay (replay button) does nothing. Remember the coin door is not connected tho.
Hey Rolf -
Did as requested. When I found home and stepped forward 15 steps on the player unit I DO in fact have an active PF.
But...every switch on the PF triggers the start relay (S) and the machine does the same thing that I mentioned earlier...player unit advances 2 steps, score motor turns 120, bank resets. Every switch does the same thing on PF. All coils do work, however.
You are a great asset to us on this board - thank you again!!
thanks for the flowers - unfortunately the fact is "I do not know Recel and I am struggling / guessing" --- fellow pinsider, when You know Recel pins: "Please participate".
Grumble, I happen to forget - I do not remember everything - anyway --- I was digging a bit in pinside - here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/aladdinss-castle-schematics-on-archiveorg-more and then post-3 I talk about "pin-it" and we come back to pinside (hihi): https://pinside.com/pinball/archive/top-speed (scroll down) - see the pages of the schematics (?).
I happen to like to do some "work" in MS-Paint and paintnet.com --- I have put together these pages into an continuous schematics (JPG is 2.0 MB data, PDF is 1.1 MB data) --- I do not post such MB data in pinside --- IF You write me an personal message with an EMail-Address I then send You "my work".
The beginning of Your post-20 makes me believe "I did not make an good description" - here again: Toggle-off the pin - manually step the Player-Unit to HOME-Position - then manually step the Unit some 15 steps (more) further (still the pin is toggled of). With this stepping (8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15) we make the pin believe: A game was played - well, not completely played.
Then toggle-on and do Your start-procedure once --- the pin does step a bit but not enough steps --- the pin comes to idle --- NOW, YOU (with the pin toggled-on, started) - YOU carefully step to HOME-Position. And doing so You should be "in a ONE-Player-Game - in Ball-1" You can launch the ball and play --- can You somewhat play ? Then: You let the ball drain - is the pin nice and friendly and counts down bonus and steps to next ball ? Greetings Rolf
Rolf and others following along...three videos to show what is going on. Watch in sequence...
thanks for the videos. I am not pleased with what I see in the videos --- the first problem we must take tare of is "Why does the S-Start-Relay pulls-in all the time ?". To study the schematics and figure out some test will take one to two (?) hours. In Switzerland it is past eleven at night - I go to sleep. I will write by tomorrow. Greetings Rolf
I look at Your video in post-24. You do step the "Player-Unit, Gottlieb words" and at time 0:33 You step to and reach Home-Position. After a few seconds You then toggle-on and start a game. This is not what I meant - I meant: Have the pin toggled-off and do some stepping so the pin (way in the future) believes "a game has been played". At the time You have the pin toggled-off and do some stepping "Home" is not of interest - of interest is "Player-Unit shall be in a position clearly "in play - many steps AFTER Home)". Yes You step to Home-position so You now can do the 15 steps so You have the Player-Unit clearly "in play - somewhere towards Game-Over. Wait with toggling-on until You have reached this "some-15-steps-after-Home" position - in this position toggle-on and start a game.
The video (in post-24 ends when it is getting interesting.
I look at the first video in post-23. At time 00:12 / 00:13 You manually hit an green Rollover-Button on top of the playfield. Bad luck - I want to have a look in ipdb what points are given to that Button - when 50 or 500 or 5000 points: The Score-Motor is allowed to turn - little gremlins - ipdb is down - I do not have access to ipdb ...
I look at the second video in post-23 --- a bumper should not make the Score-Motor to run - should not make the Bank to reset - should not make the Player-Unit to step.
A bumper should not make the S-Start-Relay to fire - should not make the V-Replay-Button-Relay to fire. The schematics is hard to understand (means I do not understand as there are symbols like empty brackets I do not understand).
There is something wrong with the V- and S-Relay - Okay the activated V-Relay does in an running pin then activate the S-Relay - so maybe the question actually is "WHY gets the V-Relay activated when You hit a bumper.
I would be rude and unsolder a wire from COIL of V-Relay --- either the single wire "slate-white" or unsolder the two wires black --- when unsoldering the two wires "Black" - when they are unsoldered: They still shall be in contact among each other - still be soldered together. THEN when You want to start a new game You cannot use the Replay button - You must manually activate the S-Start-Relay.
Does the unsoldering wire(s) from coil on V-Relay --- then manually activating the S-Relay to start a game --- does this makes the bumper to not make the Motor run etc ? Greetings Rolf
an add-on to my post-27 - the manually stepping on the Player-Unit. I did write a lot - I must write more.
It is a common advice - other pinsiders had give many times and for sure thy will give the simple (short) advice : When the Startup / Reset stuff does not complete on itself - be nice and friendly to the pin - MANUALLY step to Home-Position.
So my (lengthy) writing in post-27 is the beginning --- You toggle-off the pin - thenYou manually step to "some 15 steps after Home-Position" - You plug-in and start a a game - the pin does a bit of work - does some steps - but faulty does not step to Home-Position by itself. The pin has current - has done some work - it idles - NOW YOU are nice and friendly and helpful - YOU now do the stepping to Home-Position means Zero-Position means "Position for Player-1-Ball-1" and You should be allowed to "kind of playing". Greetings Rolf
I was able to get the game to player-one, ball one and "play".
The scoring worked as it should - bumpers and rollovers incremented only one (hundred, thousand, etc.) and did not run the score motor or Reset the bank.
At the end of the ball, bonus counted down and the ball return fired. I could then manually run the player unit to player one-ball two and so on, through a complete game. The game did not go into game over at the end of Ball 5, however.
Will take a look at disconnecting the V relay tomorrow and see what happens.
wait with "unsoldering wire(s) away from "Coil on V-Relay".
Sure, I want to help fixing the pin so in the end it runs completely. If there are many / complicated problems: I like to try some tricks / work-arounds so the owner "somewhat can play". Troubleshooting can be frustrating --- I believe: Now and then "somewhat playing" in between the endless troubleshooting helps to keep interest / motivation to fix.
My "manually stepping to 'somewhat 15 positions after HOME' - toggle-on, start a game - wait for the pin whatever the pin is willing to do --- then stepping to HOME": This is not really troubleshooting - this is "trying to do a work-around on the problem" - so You can "somewhat play".
My suggestion of unsoldering wire(s) away from "Coil on V-Relay" was another attempt to do a (sigh, one more) work-around so You can "somewhat play".
Please tell me: WHAT did You do so a lot of the very strange behaviour have vanished ? We then look at "whats next" - greetings Rolf
from my limited Recel experience, the one thing that keeps coming back to haunt me is bad solder joints. before we do anything on a Recel, we tug on every wire on every solder joint. the number that de-laminate and come off the solder lug is incredible. We have a Recel Checkmate and i swear we had to re-solder like 100 wires back onto their solder lugs. it's incredible how many have come off.
Hey Clay! Thanks for joining the discussion. I did search the ninja site when I started helping my friend with this but not too much on there related to Recel!
You are absolutely correct - I can't tell you how many wires I have found disconnected or have come loose while working on something (like spinning the reset relay bank around).
I THINK I have them all around the game corrected, but I use fingertip touches because I just never know when another one will pop off. I also found that I needed to add fresh solder to all of those connections - the old stuff apparently lost some of its sticking power to the point that even a re-heat is not enough.
Rolf - The Player 4 relay on the reset bank does not want to latch in the off position (inactive). When the bank resets, the Player 4 relay just drops right back down. When I had that off to diagnose, I noticed that the GO Relay (the next one over) had a pair of NO contacts that were making even when the relay was not active. I adjusted that and then the PF started scoring correctly.
I have a feeling there is another relay in the bank (First Ball, Last Ball, PM, etc.) that I do not have adjusted correctly. That is tonight's plan - to go through them (AGAIN) and see if something is making when it should not. I imagine that is the key to the start relay triggering during a game and also the reason the game will not reset.
For what its worth, the V (Reset-button) Relay does nothing at any state of game operation, other than actuating alongside the start relay when the score motor runs. The S relay will make score motor actuate, but the V relay does nothing when manually actuated.
The PO apparently disconnected some wires from the coin relay (W) at some point - I think I am going to reconnect them before I go any further. I am sure it was to facilitate Free-Play somehow, but I can do that with the credit stepper '0' switches and leave the wiring intact, so that troubleshooting for the next person will be easier.
Thanks again everyone! Clay if you have a minute to watch those little videos I posted and can give any more insight that would help us. I am sure this is a similar issue to what could happen on a GTB of the same era, but my biggest challenge has been trying to create the logic links between GTB and Recel.
The problem was at the factory their soldering iron's did not get the switch tabs hot enough. So when they soldered the wire on, there wasn't enough heat for the solder to really Tint the lug, add time, and the switch wires delaminate from the switch lugs. When you reattach the wires you need to tint the wire, tint the lug, then put the two things together and heat them both. That fixes the problem
Ever feel like you are running in circles?
Well I checked each of the bank relays to make sure they are operating correctly. At least I think they are!
PM1 was not correct, thus causing the bank to Reset every 120 of motor rotation, so that is no longer an issue.
Still not getting the correct action with the S relay, but now, if I manually actuate pm2, the machine will pulse the player unit and then decrement the bonus unit. Problem is neither will stop. If in the midst of this madness I actuate PM2, then everything stops when the motor reaches home and resets the relay bank.
I'm done for tonight. Thanks you all for putting up with me!
Well I have solved my Reset problem. Had a couple of switches in the reset bank that were not quite right. Also was not getting the score reels to clear to zero, so got that straight and now the game goes through full reset - player one ball one. But...
I have no power to PF coils, and no scoring. I can manually score by actuating the score relays, but no switches score, no flippers, no chimes, no bumpers, etc.
Ball does not kick out into shooter lane.
So making progress but still a ways to go.
It's hard to follow all the logic at 11H & I on the schematic, but there is a switch on the Game Over (GO) relay that disconnects power to the playfield and scoring.
Hi Scott and HowardR
when we say that Recel "Top Speed" uses Gottlieb (Spirit of 76) Logic --- here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gtlb-spirit-of-76-startup-problem#post-3427383 the marked green stuff - "Q-Game-Over-Relay and AX-Reset-Control-Relay and H-Tilt-Hold-Relay" do control the power to the playfield. Your pin has "GO-Game-Over-Relay and PM2-first-Reset-Control-Relay and H-(faulty-only-named- ) Tilt-Relay" --- the same.
Want to try the work-around I show in the (here) JPG ? Greetings Rolf
on the Game-Over-Relay the "Solder-Lug with wire-red soldered-on" probably is hard to get at. For the mentioned test (post-37) You can use any "Solder-Lug with wire-red soldered-on" - want to look-up in the schematic --- my "Switchblade on M-Relay" is one of the many places You may use. Greetings Rolf
Well I made quite a bit of progress today. The issue with no PF power fracked back to an issue with Reset Relay no.2.
So now the game will reset and start and lo and behold I can play a game.
Also fixed an issue with the first ball relay that was causing the game to actually start on player 2 ball one.
Which brings up another issue: I can only play a 2 player game. I believe I have a switch issue in the player 2 relay. Will fix tomorrow.
Also, bonus countdown at the end of the ball goes on forever. Something else to look at.
Thanks all - we'll keep plugging away.
Just a quick update all -
I finally have Top Speed working almost 100%. I have replaced all lamp sockets on PF (they were all corroded junk). Everything is working correctly. I had to readjust switches in the reset bank relays several times to get everything right.
Now all features are working and scoring correctly.
The only thing left to fix are lamp sockets in the back box and I can only play a 2 player game. If I add the third and fourth players, the game just moves back and forth between player one and two (correctly), but will not move to player 3 or 4.
Thanks again all for the help and translations!
Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside