WRONG!
well ... let's say rather that it is not exactly TRUE
But this need some technical explanations...

Indeed, many people think that the WPC-95 (A-20516) Audio Video board can be replaced with a separate video board from WPC-89 / WPC-S (A-14039) and an independent audio board (like Tilt Audio, or Pinsound).
Granted, it works in some cases. But not always! Why?

➤ Simply because it's not exactly equivalent to an original WPC-95 AV board.

Let us not forget either the serial interface (which is independent of the ASIC), which is lost if one replaces an AV card by other boards. Granted, this was only used on the "NBA Fastbreak" and "Phantom Haus", and isn't really something essential, except if you want to play NBA in network, or connect the serial printer.

Remember that, no one has ever seen the ASIC datasheet used on WPC-95 AV boards and it is only "assumed", or "presumed" to be identical to the discrete components previously used on WPC-89 / WPC-S board. However, this assumption is a mistake , because Williams made some improvements by creating this ASIC, with features that are not found on previous WPC-89/WPC-S boards.

Really ? YES.

A simple example: if you look at the diagram of the DMD WPC / WPC-S video board (A-14039 or A-14039.1) you will see that this board will never be able to manage DOT displays of more than 32 lines. Indeed, the comparator (U21 - 74HC588) receives only 5 address lines and on the other hand, the hardware generation (U23A / B / C + U6C / D) of the synchro signal (ROW_DATA) also only uses 5 bits.

However, there is a WPC-95 machine with a display of more than 32 lines: the "Phantom Haus", which has a 128x64 DMD - in other words, 64 lines!

So how can this work?

⬥ I disassembled the part of the ROMs concerning display management and the obvious: the registers in the ASIC are more than 5 bits, since sometimes a value greater than 32 is written in them. Without going into too much detail, let's say the bottom line is that the ASIC registers on the WPC-95 AV board are a bit different from those implemented on the WPC-89 / WPC-S video board.
Moral: The video section of a WPC-95 is well designed differently from that of a WPC-S, although at first glance it looks similar.

⬥ I had already made this observation by analyzing the ROMs of certain pinball machines, produced both in WPC-S and in WPC-95. Because there are indeed some VERY particular models in the WPC-S and WPC-95:
- the "Demolition Man", which is a WPC-89, but which also served as a prototype for the WPC-S
- the "Jackbot", which is a WPC-S, and which served as a prototype for the WPC-95
- the "Phantom Haus", which is a WPC-95 with very specific hardware and a larger resolution display.
- the "Congo", originally produced in WPC-95, but which was then offered as a conversion kit for WPC-S (keeping the WPC-S boards)

For the latter, there are ROM versions that work just as well on a WPC-S CPU board as they do on a WPC-95 CPU board!
This is surprising, because the hardware (driver, audio, video) is obviously not the same at all.
When the CPU starts up, the video board registers are interrogated. The answer being different between a video board WPC-S A-14039 and an AV WPC-95 A-20516, it is thus possible to determine whether the pinball machine is a WPC-S or a WPC-95.
It goes without saying that this kind of functionality can never be integrated on an alternative audio card, since it is the video part of the ASIC which is used to make the identification.

It is not possible either, to use an AV board to keep the video part and to put another audio board next to it. Because the audio and video sections of ASIC are inseparable and cannot be deactivated. Connecting a second audio board, while leaving the AV board in place, will lead to conflicts (exchanges with the CPU being bi-directional).

And for those who haven't had the courage to read these technical explanations, let's summarize:
There are cases, where for a WPC-95, installing an alternative audio board (TiltAudio, Pinsound ...) does not work.

Having said that, TiltAudio is still a great project

Excellent notes about the details on the AV board and it would be best to just keep it but if the board dies they aren't as easy to get as other boards so just mentioned one option that I read about. I never said it was a combination that was meant to work in all cases but according to this thread:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-wpc95-audio-visual-board

quite a few people that had dead WPC AV boards swapped out with the combination of the older DMD and one of the replacement sound boards with good results. So if you have a dead AV board it is certainly an option to try. Even if everything doesn't work it is probably better than nothing working.

That is a good point about the network play and serial printer but many people just have a single machine and I don't think I have ever seen the serial printer option or know of anyone that used it so that one I don't think would affect anyone.

just an update. TiltAudio Board 3.7 tried in two DE Star Trek, a DE GnR, and a DE Lethal Weapon. Same results. No sound to game but sounds play fine via WebUI.

Finally got around to hooking my tilt audio up. Didn't see the raspisound.ini in the data/sound folder after flashing the image, so I ignored it.

I have pinwoofer amp and speakers. When I turn on the machine I hear "whistling" is that a ground issue?

I did hear the license number start to go but could understand it through the whistling. Thinking ground issue or raspisound.ini issue or both? Thanks

I have a version 3.0 board being shipped from BrewNinja so I will test that once it arrives.

I am baffled as well. Three different Tilt Audio boards in four different DE machines and I can't get any of them to work

Hoping it is a simple issue on my part. It will be interesting to see what your regression testing determines.

I took the latest update too and lost sound on my Data East Jurassic Park. I thought for awhile it was a corrupted sd card but it wasnt.

Maybe check the orientation of the ribbon cable ?

Took out the Tilt card and put back an original sound card in my TAF.
Now the flippers flip at the end of the round and the sounds are in sync with the end of ball bonus counts again.
Probably out of scope for the Tilt card, but there seems to be some kind of communication between the sound card and the MPU missing.
Would be interesting to know if other games used this ?

Sidenote, which Pi are you using in your TA boards?

I'm running Board rev 3.7 with 1.38 Firmware although I also tested it with 1.37 Firmware too. I am running a Raspberry Pi 3 Model B+

I used my DMM and checked continuity from the DE connector to the resistor network and the Pi.

Can you clarify that its possible for the board to work in the WPC machines but not the DE machines? Are there specific components I should focus on with regards to confirming continuity for DE?

I've tried swapping the orientation of the ribbon cable to no avail. Honestly though I've tried so many different combinations of cables, machines, boards, etc.. I'm just hoping it is a bad solder connection or a reversed component, etc..

Yeah, it would have been interesting to know which games had this kind of bidirectional communication.
So far I have only noticed this on TAF of the games I have placed a Tilt audio card in.

Let me know if there´s anything I can do to assist.

I've verified connectivity from the DE 20 pin IDC connector to the resistor network, from the resistor network to the STM, and from the STM to the Pi. All test fine for connectivity. I was really hoping for a cold solder joint but doesn't appear to be the case.

My friend has a LW3 that we tested in but can you confirm what version of Game ROM you are running in your LW3 so I can be 100% sure our configuration matches yours for testing.

Can you also confirm orientation of the ribbon cable from the main board to the Tilt Audio board. I am aligning the cable with the red stripe on pin one of the game board to pin one of the Tilt Audio DE 20 pin IDC connector.

Did you also verify connectivity from the DE IDC connector to the STM through the resistor network. You should have 47Ohms on each line except D0 (Pin15 on IDC) which has 1k+47Ohms to A0 of the STM. The most important Pin for DE is from Pin13 of the IDC to C15 of the STM which is strobe.

I will check and report back.

I measured the data lines from the IDC connector to the STM and all were within tolerance (47.2, 47.2, 47.4, etc.. ohms). You state that D0 is pin 15 on the IDC connector however on my 3.7 board D0 is on pin 3 of the IDC connector.

Measuring from this pin 3 on the IDC to A0 on the STM I get 1.03K Ohms.

Pin 13 of the IDC to pin C15 of the STM reads 47.3 Ohms

Any plans for Williams System11 A/B support?

Sorry, you are right. It is pin 15 on WPC

Is 1.03K an acceptable reading?

I'm baffled as to what the issue could be.

Yes !

thanks. I will confirm the ROM version and test again.

Just a quick update. Tilt Audio board 3.7, Pi Firmware 1.39, MCU Firmware .2, Raspberry 3 Model B+

received Version 3.0 board from BrewNinja and it did not resolve the issue. Same behavior as 3.7 Board. All sounds play fine via web interface, just no game sounds. Yes I made sure the jumper was set to DE.

Swapped in my original 3.7 Board and upgraded to 1.39 figuring I have nothing to lose. No change. All sounds play fine via web interface, just no game sounds.

Went into web interface and confirmed MCU was detected and the version numbers were correct (1.39 and .2) See attached image. Tested the blink function on test screen and it successfully blinks the blue led on the STM.

Selected MCU LED Test when data present and as expected the LED did not blink.

These tests were done on my DE Star Trek. I will test more on my friends LW3 in a few days once I confirm ROM version, etc.. Maybe there is something unique about Star Trek....

tiltaudiopic1 (resized).PNG

I noticed you have the audio configuration set to "sndrpi..." however there are multiple options in the audio configuration settings.

What should I have it set to for DataEast? Could it be as simple as the wrong audio configuration set?

Have you tried disabling LUA ?
There have been issues when this has been enabled.
Perhaps running it without a license is worth a try ?

Still stumped. Just for the heck of it I put in a Raspberry Pi Zero 2 W that I had and get the same result. sounds play fine via web interface, no data is indicated from the main board to the Tilt Audio i.e. when STM set to blink on data the LED remains off..

As previously indicated the Version 3.0 board also does not work which was built by BrewNinja so this should eliminate any potential soldering issues on the boards I assembled. I don't believe there are issues on my boards as they work fine in my WPC and I also checked every DE pin from the IDC to the resistor network to the STM to the Pi as well as took Ohm readings.

Prior to switching my Raspberry Pi 3 Model B+ with the Raspberry Pi Zero 2 W tonight the only constant was the Raspberry Pi as I swapped it onto multiple boards to test. Could there be something with the Raspberry Pi image on the SD Card that would prevent it from working in DE but work fine in WPC?

I know it is a long shot but I am about to ship my board to Steve for testing in his LW

looks like your board is only populated with the DE components. Have you tested with a fully populated board as well? all my boards are fully populated with the DE and WPC components. it also looks like you are powering the board externally. I understand that it shouldn't matter, just looking for a direct comparison of what I am testing.

Also I noticed in the configuration section of the webui that there are two Data East selections. One with an Asterisk and (*) and one without. is this relevant? Why they difference?

2.01

Progress! I finally made it over to my friend's house who has a collection of DE Games. I took along my Version 3.0 and 3.7 boards as well as my Raspberry Pi 3 Model B+ and my Raspberry Pi Zero 2 W.

Tested my boards in his DE GnR, his WWF, and his Star Trek. My boards worked fine in his GnR and WWF however they did not work in his Star Trek. Basically in the Star Trek I am getting the same thing as my Star Trek. Sounds work fine in Web UI but not for game play.

I have taken his TiltAudio board and brought it back to my house to troubleshoot on the bench for issues. The board boots fine however the MCU is not detected. I will check it and report back any finds. Hoping for a bad solder joint but might be the STM itself.

Unfortunately the only DE game I have is Star Trek hence my limited ability to test DE compatibility until I went to my friend's house.

I suspect that DE Star Trek must use a combination of CPU sound and Sound Card Sound and this is causing some problems with Tilt Audio.

so in summary - I've gotten TiltAudio to work in other DE games - just not the one game I own - DE Star Trek.

Yeah it has me stumped as well. Not sure if I mentioned this but one thing I noticed that is unique to Star Trek is as soon as you power the machine up with the original DE sound board it says "Scotty here!" and then the display shows and the game goes through its startup. The fact this happens before the game boots led me to believe maybe it was coming from the CPU versus the sound board.

At least I've been able to eliminate the core TiltAudio hardware as being a problem and narrowed it down to DE Star Trek. The fact that the board works in other DE games but two different DE Star Trek machines exhibit the same behavior is pretty interesting.

Let me know what you find when you test with the Star Trek ROM.

one other thought. is it possible that the Trek_201 Alt sound pack file is corrupted in some way?

This is the file I am using https://mega.nz/file/bmJyQKqZ#HcN8ee3HhQq4f7zVTYaEFGgSjNJtgdtuVpjwSGjEyS0

just offering ideas. as Star Trek seems to be the only DE game I can't get to work I was just trying to identify differences.

steve45 just checking in to see if you have any more ideas regarding the DE Star Trek and TiltAudio

I am having this same issue with my LW3.

Tilt 3.7 board
Version 1.39
Pi 3 A+ (the only one I could get)
Game ROM 2.0

Sound output from machine through web UI, no sound out when in gameplay. Data cable red on one both sides.

I threw the board into my RAB with the same settings and works just fine.

Sounds like it might be an early data east game compatibility issue?