(Topic ID: 179619)

Rebuilding sound for DataEast & WPC using a pi


By steve45

4 years ago

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There are 1599 posts in this topic. You are on page 28 of 32.
#1351 86 days ago

Thanks for reply. I make this bridge because on V2.6/2.8 gerber files, it is like this and with wiring check, I see it’s not connected. So I make this bridge to test.
A friend say me he don’t have any error on startup. So I post here to have support. Is it possible to modify games rom to not check board on startup?

#1352 86 days ago

Just for reference, I'm Tiberium contact, and indeed on my CFTBL I don't see any sound error or sound check.

But I use a modified rom (from http://vpuniverse.com/forums/files/file/4173-creature-from-the-black-lagoon-l-4c-competition-mod/), not sure if they disabled something

#1353 86 days ago

Only newer machines / rom versions check the soundboard. I know of STTNG, TZ, Indy and TAFG.

#1354 86 days ago
Quoted from Tiberium:

Thanks for reply. I make this bridge because on V2.6/2.8 gerber files, it is like this and with wiring check, I see it’s not connected. So I make this bridge to test.
A friend say me he don’t have any error on startup. So I post here to have support. Is it possible to modify games rom to not check board on startup?

This bridge is definitely wrong and not needed.

#1355 86 days ago
Quoted from lucky1:

This bridge is definitely wrong and not needed.

It’s removed. I will put in afm which is have his sound/dot board still present. It will work perfect.

#1356 84 days ago

Haven’t received my board yet but plan on putting in my STTNG. Will the board interface error show up and if so will it cause a credit dot?

#1357 84 days ago
Quoted from JBBOPT:

Will the board interface error show up and if so will it cause a credit dot?

Yes and yes.

#1358 84 days ago

Crap the Pin2dmd I use will have a score color issue when I have a credit dot. Hopefully they can fix this at some point is their a way to split the input cable to have same info going to stock soundboard and still have info going to the the tilt board and only having the speakers hooked up to the tilt board?

#1359 84 days ago

I think it’s more easily to modify rom to do not check the sound board than a hardware which add this feature. So, is anyone know a pinsider which is capable to do it?

#1360 84 days ago
Quoted from JBBOPT:

Crap the Pin2dmd I use will have a score color issue when I have a credit dot. Hopefully they can fix this at some point is their a way to split the input cable to have same info going to stock soundboard and still have info going to the the tilt board and only having the speakers hooked up to the tilt board?

It might be easier to fix the pin2dmd keyframe to ignore the dot in the colorization.

#1361 83 days ago

I would be interested in the rom option
Currently I have the no flix mod rom someone burned for me back when I first got my STTNG and put leds in 2013/2014

#1362 83 days ago
Quoted from JBBOPT:

I would be interested in the rom option
Currently I have the no flix mod rom someone burned for me back when I first got my STTNG and put leds in 2013/2014

If we still have an error when starting, we won't see the other error. This is the problem. And I don't know if I'm normal (or disturb in my head) but I can't leave my pinball with error. It makes no sense.

#1363 83 days ago
Quoted from Tiberium:

If we still have an error when starting, we won't see the other error. This is the problem. And I don't know if I'm normal (or disturb in my head) but I can't leave my pinball with error. It makes no sense.

I may be mistaken but I think the issue is that the WPC MPU tries to communicate with the sound card and expects some data back before the Raspberry Pi has booted and loaded all the code to be a sound card.

#1364 83 days ago
Quoted from Robotworkshop:

I may be mistaken but I think the issue is that the WPC MPU tries to communicate with the sound card and expects some data back before the Raspberry Pi has booted and loaded all the code to be a sound card.

That's why I would like someone to be able to modify the rom so that this check is not done.

#1365 83 days ago

It would be good to ask that in this thread:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/official-williams-and-bally-software-upgrades/page/9#post-6142023

Maybe have that as an optional parameter that leverages an unused setting to skip the sound check.

#1366 82 days ago

I just got my license file for the Data East configuration and want to try this in my Rocky and Bullwinkle. can someone confirm the orientation of the data cable? My board is V2.5c and it looks like pin 1 may be to toward the edge of the board while the original sound card has pin 1 away from the edge. Just want to be sure I connect that properly.

Also connected the the Web UI but when on one of the sound setting screens after saving I hit the reset button in the web interface that I thought would restsrt the TiltAudio. It seemed to but once that happened I lost the WiFi access and not the IP address shows up as 127.0.0.1 and I no longer see the TilitAudio show up on WiFi. I can re-image the card and start over but would like to understand what I may have done wrong. Up until that point I had the license file installed and it found the soundset.

#1367 82 days ago

I reloaded the card and it seems to be running in the Rocky and Bullwinkle. I'm using the alt sound set for it. I noticed that a few of the sounds had a small crackle when playing a few sounds. Still probably have some adjustments to do. I think the board I had was setup to do either Data East or WPC. Anything in particular to watch out for on Data East?

#1368 82 days ago

I did some more testing and it seems like the crackling noise that I hear happens when the flash lamps go off on the Rocky and Bullwinkle. Probably power related.

#1369 81 days ago

If any of you are upgrading to a newer Tilt Audio and want to part with your 2.5c board or newer let me know. Looking for an extra board working or not. I have the latest V3.0 on order to try in my Dr Who but could use another older board.

Robert

#1370 80 days ago

I've been making good progress with the Data East Rocky and Bullwinkle using the Alt sound pack. One thing I've noticed is that the Game over sound will continuously play over and over instead of just once and stopping. I assume that is because it is under music and not as a jingle. If it truly should be under music then it maybe the original sound board code knew which music should only be played one time.

If that is the case then can an extra flag be added to the music sounds to specify if the sound should loop or not? That way if it wasn't captured (or can't be captured) from the original ROM then it could be adjusted in the WebUI, saved, and the problem is fixed. After going through this whole thread it seems that is a reoccuring issue. Possibly more related to the sound set than the Tilit Audio board itself. Unless there were additional meta data that the MPU pssses to the sound card on how a sound should be played and when it should stop that haven't been uncovered yet.

Has anyone tried adjusting the sound set afterwards and move a sound between Music and Jingle?

#1371 80 days ago

Since I'm going to use this board in a Data East machine I removed the extra power components for the WPC.

Even though the original Data East power for the sound boards are known to be noisy I would like to try and make this work without adding a dedicated power supply in the cabinet.

Removing the extra WPC power components helped. I installed an LM2577 based DC/DC convertor where the old LM2596 one was and then just had to sever one trace on the 12V in at the Data East power and route that to the fuse. The other side of the fuse goes to the input of the DC/DC convertor so that can help clean up the DC 12V power. There a a lot of people adding these inline to help reduce noise on the original DE sound boards. It seems to have helped a lot the crackling I heard when the flash lamps go off is no longer there. Most of the sounds are really good.

I still have a bit of crackling on some sounds and not sure if it is on the sound board or with the sound set files. Need to do some more testing and may plug in an external supply temporarily for testing. I am also using the remote volume control in case that makes a difference.

Just wanted to share this power mod for anyone else running this board in a Data East to see if it helps improve sound quality.

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#1372 80 days ago
Quoted from Robotworkshop:

I've been making good progress with the Data East Rocky and Bullwinkle using the Alt sound pack. One thing I've noticed is that the Game over sound will continuously play over and over instead of just once and stopping. I assume that is because it is under music and not as a jingle. If it truly should be under music then it maybe the original sound board code knew which music should only be played one time.
If that is the case then can an extra flag be added to the music sounds to specify if the sound should loop or not? That way if it wasn't captured (or can't be captured) from the original ROM then it could be adjusted in the WebUI, saved, and the problem is fixed. After going through this whole thread it seems that is a reoccuring issue. Possibly more related to the sound set than the Tilit Audio board itself. Unless there were additional meta data that the MPU pssses to the sound card on how a sound should be played and when it should stop that haven't been uncovered yet.
Has anyone tried adjusting the sound set afterwards and move a sound between Music and Jingle?

Had a chance to look at the CSV file as part of the altsound for R&B and it has a value of 100 for looping. that would explain why it repeats. The real game just plays it once and done. Changing that to 0 may fix that sound.

#1373 80 days ago

It's nice to hear about your progress. Keep it up

#1374 80 days ago

This is the link I referred to when looking at the CSV sound file:

https://vpinball.com/forums/topic/how-to-create-a-new-altsound-project/

#1375 80 days ago

So it looks as though a sound is defined as music if it is on channel 1. Does Tilit Audio honor the loop setting value for music or does it just loop based on the more global setting of loop music? If it does or can honor the loop value then could that be exposed in the WebUI? Seems that would be a good value to show and edit. If we can set that new value in the WebUI and save it then it would make it really easy to clean up and adjust a sound set.

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#1376 80 days ago

For my remaining small crackle/tick noises that occur during some sounds can someone verify I have the proper settings for Data East? If the remote POT isn't reliable should I just disable that so it won't be a factor? I'm running a V2.5c board.

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#1377 80 days ago
Quoted from Robotworkshop:

I've been making good progress with the Data East Rocky and Bullwinkle using the Alt sound pack. One thing I've noticed is that the Game over sound will continuously play over and over instead of just once and stopping. I assume that is because it is under music and not as a jingle. If it truly should be under music then it maybe the original sound board code knew which music should only be played one time.
If that is the case then can an extra flag be added to the music sounds to specify if the sound should loop or not? That way if it wasn't captured (or can't be captured) from the original ROM then it could be adjusted in the WebUI, saved, and the problem is fixed. After going through this whole thread it seems that is a reoccuring issue. Possibly more related to the sound set than the Tilit Audio board itself. Unless there were additional meta data that the MPU pssses to the sound card on how a sound should be played and when it should stop that haven't been uncovered yet.
Has anyone tried adjusting the sound set afterwards and move a sound between Music and Jingle?

Why not simply move it to jingle using the WebUI under sound details.

#1378 80 days ago
Quoted from lucky1:

Why not simply move it to jingle using the WebUI under sound details.

I can but will it still play on the same channel and does it need to? I thought it may be intended to be on that channel to replace any prior music from playing. Maybe not.

How does tilt audio determine what sound type it is from the CSU file? Is it by channel, looping, or something else? I still think that looping value should be presented as an option in the WebUI. There may be occasions where someone may want a value other than 0 or 100. I think that should be available to alter per sound and honored by the tilt audio firmware. May help people sort out a lot of sound set related issues or tweak it the way they want.

#1379 80 days ago
Quoted from Robotworkshop:

I can but will it still play on the same channel and does it need to? I thought it may be intended to be on that channel to replace any prior music from playing. Maybe not.

How does tilt audio determine what sound type it is from the CSU file?

If you want to go into detail of the altsound format, you can look at the altsound editor source how it is determined https://github.com/lucky01/Altsound-Editor or at the pinmame source.

Of yourse you can expose every single parameter that is available to the WebUI but from my experience most of the users don´t know what they are doing, and start to play around when something is not working as they wish . So I think the webUI should be as simple as necessary to make life for Steve as easy as possible from the support side.
More parameters also mean more sources for problems.

For the advanced user, who exactly knows what he is doing and what each parameter is for, there is still the option to edit the csv file.

P.S. Jingle uses the same channel like Music but maybe single is what you are looking for because it stops the background music.

#1380 80 days ago

I’ll check it out and try moving the sound to the jingle. Even so it would be nice to get confirmation on how the Tilt Audio firmware classifies the sounds from the CSV file. Also if it honors the looping value for each type of sound.

I think with the extra control these cards would be great for people that want to retheme games and want control over the sounds. Still think exposing the looping value should be considered. Looks like the rest of the values already are so why not that last one too?

#1381 79 days ago

Moving the game over sound to a jingle made it only play once but introduced a different issue. Since the Jingle plays on a different channel it can no longer replace the prior Music that would normally stop once the game over music plays (once) and as a result after the jingle plays it reverts back to the prior music that should have stopped.

I tried moving it back to music (which seems to be based on Channel 0) but changed the looping value to 0 instead of 100 which should cause it to play once on the Music channel and stop. Ignored that and kept playing even though the CSV file specified 0 repeats. It seems that any music is an all or nothing setting for repeat via a checkbox. There isn't any way I can find to specify in the WebUI or the CSV that a certain sound should only be played on the music channel once.

I'd really suggest a couple things. First make the firmware honor the loop value in the CSV file. That can be done without altering or exposing it in the UI.

Beyond that I would still suggest making a couple updates to the WebUI. First to show the channel it will play on with the number shown. Apparently some are dedicated to specific channels and will start playing in place of teh sound on that channel if currently playing. Others with undefined channels will just play on any free channel. (maybe this is the cause of some of the random issues people see. Maybe a sound plays on an unused channel then gets overwritten by one that specifically called for a channel that one used.

I would show the current loop value if the firmware honors the setting the CSV file and expose it to allow it to be set for 0 (no looping) 100 forever looping, or any specified number of loops (maybe just a couple). Let the user decide. I don't buy that it will make it too complicated. It is just one additional field and it won't be any more complex than what is already there. I really think it's needed.

Also after looking at the CSV files it looks like the TiltAudio changes that file the first time it is used. Comparing it to the original file it appends ,X,,,0, at the end of every line. The # seems to vary which maybe how it classifies sounds but I don't see that documented or if it is I missed it. What are those additional fields for?

This project is way better than when I first looked at it and with a few tweaks I think it will really be fantastic. I'm doing testing in my R&B since I know that game well to work out any bugs. Eventually though this may be used in a re-theme of a different DE game.

Has anyone else dug into the CSV files?

Another feature request if it isn't in already supported is if we define more than one sound for the same value can the firmware randomly pick one to play? With that we could add a variety of sounds for a specific event (where it makes sense) and improve the experience. This would be a great value added feature. Maybe multiple versions of game over, etc.

#1382 79 days ago

As an example of having multiple sounds per sound number:

Rocky & Bullwinkle:

0x0088 - You blew it!

It could have additional sounds:

0x0088 - You blew it!
0x0088 - You suck!
0x0088 - Really? So close!
0x0088 - Or some other random taunts.

By having a list for certain sounds you can add some variety that was never there before.

Definitely get the base sound packages sorted out first but once that is done this would let people make some nice enhancements to their games.

#1383 79 days ago
Quoted from Robotworkshop:

Moving the game over sound to a jingle made it only play once but introduced a different issue.

Quoted from lucky1:

but maybe single is what you are looking for because it stops the background music.

Quoted from Robotworkshop:

Another feature request if it isn't in already supported is if we define more than one sound for the same value can the firmware randomly pick one to play?

That is already the case

#1384 79 days ago

I can try it as a single but I still think that the channels should be shown. Also that the firmware ought to be able to honor the values in the CSV file.

Just would like to see this project get better and I think this will help.

#1385 78 days ago

Does anyone know what the extra values are for that Tilt Audio appends to each line in the CSV file and how it uses them?

#1386 77 days ago

Trying to figure out the never ending supercharger sound on Getaway.

How do you tell the TiltAudio card to stop playing the "multiball" sound (id 180) when "end_supercharger" starts (id 197) starts ?

#1387 77 days ago
Quoted from Zigzagzag:

Trying to figure out the never ending supercharger sound on Getaway.
How do you tell the TiltAudio card to stop playing the "multiball" sound (id 180) when "end_supercharger" starts (id 197) starts ?

Is the sound set you’re using an alt sound set with the CSV file or the older style with directories?

I think that if a sound is set to looping it will only stop if another sound starts playing on the same channel to overwrite the existing sound or it gets a stop command. Just curious myself if there are multiple stop commands. One as a global stop and another to stop a single channel. Still learning a bit myself.

From all my testing in my Data East some issues seem to be caused by the sound sets but also some in the way Tilt Audio is interpreting them. Need more info on how it deals with the values, how it determines what channel is played, etc. Besides the music type if it displayed what channel and exposed the looping value and honors it no matter the sound type I think a lot of the sound issues would go away.

If you are using the altsound can you look at an original CSV file and compare it with the one you’re running now? Do you also see extra data appended to the end of each line?

#1388 77 days ago
Quoted from Robotworkshop:

Is the sound set you’re using an alt sound set with the CSV file or the older style with directories?
If you are using the altsound can you look at an original CSV file and compare it with the one you’re running now? Do you also see extra data appended to the end of each line?

I use both the altsound-set and a set from another supplier I have descrambled myself that uses the older style with directories.
There is no data appended to altsound.csv as far as I can see.

#1389 77 days ago

So if my understanding is correct in just about all the sound sets the actual audio clips are just assets that I’ve seen in ogg or wav formats and the audio itself isn’t scrambled. Those audio clips seem to play fine from the command line of the Rpi. Maybe there are actual scrambled audio clips but haven’t come across those yet.

In that case is the scrambled portion just the index file as far as what each I’d the sound clip is associated with, what type of sound, and how it should be played?

#1390 77 days ago
Quoted from Robotworkshop:

So if my understanding is correct in just about all the sound sets the actual audio clips are just assets that I’ve seen in ogg or wav formats and the audio itself isn’t scrambled. Those audio clips seem to play fine from the command line of the Rpi. Maybe there are actual scrambled audio clips but haven’t come across those yet.
In that case is the scrambled portion just the index file as far as what each I’d the sound clip is associated with, what type of sound, and how it should be played?

Third-party soundsets have scrambled index files and partially scrambled file names.
I believe the scrambled part of the file names is the ID number, i.e. the number the MPU asks the sound card to play.
At least this is how I have interpreted things.

Steve used to help create the config files for these scrambled sets.
Not sure if he does anymore, but I believe the firmware contains a set of these config files already.

#1391 77 days ago

steve45 I seem to have a bug where the card forgets the license information when I do a change in the web UI.
The card then calls out "please register" even though the license file is present.
If I don't change anything in the web UI it behaves as it should.

As a sidenote it would be nice if the web UI remembers that I have chosen the English language between refreshes of the page.

#1392 77 days ago
Quoted from Zigzagzag:

Trying to figure out the never ending supercharger sound on Getaway.
How do you tell the TiltAudio card to stop playing the "multiball" sound (id 180) when "end_supercharger" starts (id 197) starts ?

Move it from music to single

#1393 77 days ago
Quoted from lucky1:

Move it from music to single

That's an option but might it cause the same issue I ran into where it could allow a prior piece of Music to play instead? I still think exposing the channel information and looping values could help here too......

#1394 77 days ago
Quoted from steve45:

The firmware is backwards compatible, sorry if that was not explicitly mentioned. There is one exception though: if you still want to use the old style pot volume control with data east cabinet pot, you need to change the R C values. The old values did not allowed precise enough measurement so the new firmware requires bigger rc time constant.
The wpc timing issue was always more a hardware problem, because of an inappropriate mixture of smc chip set. You need to change the 74LVX00 if your board has one of those. Please contact me if this was a problem on your board.
Forgot to mention: there is a new firmware out 1.31 see https://tiltaudio.com/changelog
Br Steve

Taking a look at that now. U2 is an LCX, U4 LVX, U3 LCX

#1395 77 days ago
Quoted from WW2GURU:

Taking a look at that now. U2 is an LCX, U4 LVX, U3 LCX

You should change U4 to LCX

#1396 77 days ago
Quoted from Robotworkshop:

That's an option but might it cause the same issue I ran into where it could allow a prior piece of Music to play instead? I still think exposing the channel information and looping values could help here too......

IMHO, would help absolutely nothing but confusion.

#1397 76 days ago
Quoted from lucky1:

IMHO, would help absolutely nothing but confusion.

I guess we have a difference of opinion on this and that’s fine.

Moving the sounds back and forth between sound types just trades one problem with another. Sure. A sound may just play once but then it allows other prior sounds to play that shouldn’t.

If no one thinks those values should be in the WebUI that’s fine. But unfortunately until there is a way to have control over them at least in the CSV file and have the firmware respect those values my board is back on the shelf for now. Not ready to replace the factory board. However I can power it up on my test jig anytime for testing to see if anything gets sorted out.

Without any changes to the WebUI there are a couple things I would ask for:

- Honor the loop values in the altsound CSV file no matter what sound type. This may take a firmware update. Until that there are scenarios that I don’t see a way to resolve preventing perfect replacement in some machines.

- A quick description of just how Tilt Audio consumes that CSV file and interprets the values inside. How it determines what sounds get mapped to music, jingle, single, etc. Is it by the channel number? Is it because is sees 100 for loop value? Who knows. Can only tell that by looking at the Tilt Audio source. Sort of wish I had asked for at least read only access to the source so at the very least I could figure out how it deals with the CSV file.

I sincerely hope these two asks will be considered.

#1398 76 days ago
Quoted from Robotworkshop:

Can only tell that by looking at the Tilt Audio source.

The altsound csv format is not something that was invented for tiltaudio but for pinMame as an alternative for the old unencrypted pinsound format. So everything which works with pinsound should also work exactly the same way with altsound.

Which makes this assumption simply wrong.

Quoted from Robotworkshop:

Moving the sounds back and forth between sound types just trades one problem with another. Sure. A sound may just play once but then it allows other prior sounds to play that shouldn’t.

So if you want to know more about the altsound format why not just look at the pinmame source or at the source of the altsound editor I linked above like I already told you ? It will tell you how the values are interpreted and everything else what you want to know. Tiltaudio does exactly the same.

#1399 76 days ago
Quoted from lucky1:

The altsound csv format is not something that was invented for tiltaudio but for pinMame as an alternative for the old unencrypted pinsound format. So everything which works with pinsound should also work exactly the same way with altsound.
Which makes this assumption simply wrong.

No one made any assumptions and I never said that Tilt Audio invented that or any format. It is my understanding that Tilt Audio is just using existing formats that were already present. The Directory style and the altsound format. Some of the altsound sets do have quirks and issues. With some editing it should be possible to correct all those. However I have run into roadblocks that just trade one problem for another without an actual solution. I just suggested something that I think would help. It's up to the owners of the Tilt Audio source whether they want to consider it or not.

If not that's fine but I'd enjoy hearing some other suggestions on how to control the way the sound elements are played that resolve some of the problems I've run into. I'm not asking for anyone to drop everything and focus on it but at least give it a little thought and consideration.

So if you want to know more about the altsound format why not just look at the pinmame source or at the source of the altsound editor I linked above like I already told you ? It will tell you how the values are interpreted and everything else what you want to know. Tiltaudio does exactly the same.

Does Tilt Audio embed and use the pinmame source as part of the project to decode the audio? If not then looking at the pinmame source really doesn't help too much other than to understand the pinmame project. I am more interested in how Tilt Audio interprets that and how it implements things.

I'd also like to know why Tilt Audio appended on some additional parameters to each of the lines and what they mean. If someone can point to any references in this thread or online I'll be glad to read up on it.

#1400 76 days ago

Robotworkshop

One suggestion I would have to determine whether TiltAudio interprets things differently with regards to altsound format parsing is simply to run VPX with the same table, with PinMame sound mode set to 1 (if I recall correctly, might be set to 2).

If it's identical you can then proceed to look at Pinmame source code

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